[RWC2023] England vs Samoa (07/10/2023)

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

I think a lot of England fans would bigly beg to differ.

farrells getting nothing from you

 

[BPM]

Nor from me. The thought of him 'doing a Sexton' and hanging around for another World Cup cycle and blocking the development of more talented players makes me very unhappy indeed.

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

Nor from me. The thought of him 'doing a Sexton' and hanging around for another World Cup cycle and blocking the development of more talented players makes me very unhappy indeed.

Is that just Farrell who blocks development?..What if smith gets the 10 jersey and doesn't perform in the next 6 nations do we discard him as he could be blocking development…meanwhile let's look forward to Saturdays game and the quarter finals rather than looking who's going to cost us the next World Cup

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

I don't see the attraction with Smith. Look up 'overhyped' in the rugby dictionary and you see a photo of him. A few moments of brilliance but largely Poundshop Finn Russell

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I don't see the attraction with Smith. Look up 'overhyped' in the rugby dictionary and you see a photo of him. A few moments of brilliance but largely Poundshop Finn Russell

Christ. If someone called me a Poundshop Finn Russell I don't think I'd ever touch a rugby ball again.

 

[BPM]

I don't see the attraction with Smith. Look up 'overhyped' in the rugby dictionary and you see a photo of him. A few moments of brilliance but largely Poundshop Finn Russell

If you are looking for overhyped, Owen 'The Iceman' Farrell is the definitive example. I don't doubt he has leadership skills, but he's been living off a largely undeserved reputation for years. It's not his fault, but having the media blowing smoke up his arse for years has created a myth far beyond his actual ability.

Is that just Farrell who blocks development?..What if smith gets the 10 jersey and doesn't perform in the next 6 nations do we discard him as he could be blocking development…meanwhile let's look forward to Saturdays game and the quarter finals rather than looking who's going to cost us the next World Cup

Whose development would Marcus Smith be blocking though? Finn Smith is promising but not really demanding to be selected. Marcus Smith will most likely continue to play well and will rightly be in the mix to start. In a World Cup cycle you have to think long term. Sticking with Farrell until he's even slower and more conservative is hardly planning for the future.

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

If you are looking for overhyped, Owen 'The Iceman' Farrell is the definitive example. I don't doubt he has leadership skills, but he's been living off a largely undeserved reputation for years. It's not his fault, but having the media blowing smoke up his arse for years has created a myth far beyond his actual ability.


Whose development would Marcus Smith be blocking though? Finn Smith is promising but not really demanding to be selected. Marcus Smith will most likely continue to play well and will rightly be in the mix to start. In a World Cup cycle you have to think long term. Sticking with Farrell until he's even slower and more conservative is hardly planning for the future.

And what if ford or Farrell are still the top 10's in the premiership as they have been this season for the next four years .Do you just not select them for England because they may hinder Marcus Smith or another up and coming player.

 

[Jimbo]

The truth maybe that OF is at times over hyped by some but vastly under rated by others, most people I speak to within rugby circles will concede that MM is great, he clearly has belief in OF and the track record to prove it as do Lions tours and the positivity OF gets around the majority of camps, Sarries defiantly perform worse without him and if he was that much of a journeymen why would MM continue to pay him a pretty sizeable salary when apparently any bang average 10 old or new could do the job. Not am I for a minute saying he has consistantly been great for England but as a whole England have been crap this WC cycle and for what ever reason OF cops a large chunk of the criticism for that. In the end it I think it comes down to how you want to play the game and selecting the right combination of players to achieve that, ultimately only then can it be determined who the best 10 is for the job.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The truth maybe that OF is at times over hyped by some but vastly under rated by others, most people I speak to within rugby circles will concede that MM is great, he clearly has belief in OF and the track record to prove it as do Lions tours and the positivity OF gets around the majority of camps, Sarries defiantly perform worse without him and if he was that much of a journeymen why would MM continue to pay him a pretty sizeable salary when apparently any bang average 10 old or new could do the job. Not am I for a minute saying he has consistantly been great for England but as a whole England have been crap this WC cycle and for what ever reason OF cops a large chunk of the criticism for that. In the end it I think it comes down to how you want to play the game and selecting the right combination of players to achieve that, ultimately only then can it be determined who the best 10 is for the job.

Farrell is a system player. Get him to execute a gameplan in a working system and I can perfectly believe he is the guy to do it, arguably better than any others in England. What he does not seem to be is a thinker or particularly adaptable. Being a system player works for a club where they can develop it over years, playing day in day out with the same people. It works less well internationally, especially when the system is falling to pieces. The likes of Russell offer a spark and can grab a game by the scruff of the neck themselves (admittedly he's thrown a few and it took a long time for him to become a net positive), Farrell cannot do that as either 10 or captain internationally.

Ford and Smith have both demonstrated a level of personal ingenuity, vision and and in Ford's case has brought the team back from a bad position more than once when Farrell has been absent. England with Farrell at 10 or as captain do not seem to do this. Once opponents adapt to our game plan, Farrell isn't able to change.

tl;dr he probably makes a lot of noise and can execute orders but also not the brightest spark. Like a noisy but popular sergeant rather than a general.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

And what if ford or Farrell are still the top 10's in the premiership as they have been this season for the next four years .Do you just not select them for England because they may hinder Marcus Smith or another up and coming player.

Good strawman 10/10

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

And what if ford or Farrell are still the top 10's in the premiership as they have been this season for the next four years .Do you just not select them for England because they may hinder Marcus Smith or another up and coming player.

Farrell is a system player. Get him to execute a gameplan in a working system and I can perfectly believe he is the guy to do it, arguably better than any others in England. What he does not seem to be is a thinker or particularly adaptable. Being a system player works for a club where they can develop it over years, playing day in day out with the same people. It works less well internationally, especially when the system is falling to pieces. The likes of Russell offer a spark and can grab a game by the scruff of the neck themselves (admittedly he's thrown a few and it took a long time for him to become a net positive), Farrell cannot do that as either 10 or captain internationally.

Ford and Smith have both demonstrated a level of personal ingenuity, vision and and in Ford's case has brought the team back from a bad position more than once when Farrell has been absent. England with Farrell at 10 or as captain do not seem to do this. Once opponents adapt to our game plan, Farrell isn't able to change.

tl;dr he probably makes a lot of noise and can execute orders but also not the brightest spark. Like a noisy but popular sergeant rather than a general.

But Farrell can sure win trophies

 

[BPM]

A good number of those trophies can also be attributed to financial doping though.

Even today, he's playing for a side that somehow manages to have 2 internationals in virtually every position whilst amazingly staying under the cap.

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

A good number of those trophies can also be attributed to financial doping though.

Even today, he's playing for a side that somehow manages to have 2 internationals in virtually every position whilst amazingly staying under the cap.

And with a 10 who can't play and is past it apparently so I'd consider them trophies an even greater achievement

 

[dirty harry]

Love this. Exactly how I see it.

Just one further; what do you think about Steward or Smith at full back?

This is easy, Smith isnt a fullback, hes a defensive liability, and way too often is beaten without playing a finger on the attacking player.

Hes a lively little ball player, but shoe churning that into a key defensive position is suicide IMHO.

I like Steward, I dont think theres a better defensive fullback from high balls in the world, but he has his issues.

1. Hes big and slow, cant turn, and has very little agility. Line breaks are his nightmare because he hasnt the gas to corner flag, or turn infield to cover.
Saying that, experience will cover a lot of this, another 15-20 caps and hell solve most of this with positioning. Hes bigger, stronger, faster and more agile than a 35 year old halfpenny, but currently Halfpenny makes the last ditch tackles Steward doesnt, this I am 100% sure will come, and he has the basis of performance to be world class IMO.

2. Steward is a weapon, when he develops a return game, something other than trucking it up like Jamoe Robert's, he will stump opposition kicking tactics. Even now his takes of high balls under pressure is amazing, teams dont want to box to compete to him, this could turn into kicking to him at all, meaning opposition teams would adjust their entire kicking gameplan for him, that's a massive compliment!


As others have said, Smith is a flash maybe twice a match, he has too many weaknesses for international rugby, and I get the feeling England are just so desperate to see some flair at 10 they'll try anything, a bit like Wales after a decade of Dan Biggar, Sheedy, Evan's, Costelow, Davies etc are all poor 10s, but the second they showed a bit of flair they were fast racked unsuccessfully.

My question on 15 is why Daly wasnt given an extended run, monster left boot, great in attack, and forced to suffer on the wing for years (ask Liam William's how that felt, and how he reacted to getting the 15 short)


Anyway, they're my thoughts, sorry for the Welsh references, there just seems to be so many parallels lol

 

[Geordie]

I think Freddie is coping some harsh criticism mind. Hes 22 year old...he actually does have a good skill set...he can pass well and if you check his Tigers games..he does create tries aswell as score them.
Maybe his defence in certain situations can improve, but jeez...at 22 he will improve! Hes young.

Theres a few others that could well challenge him though...Carpenter, Freeman if he moves to 15, Nick David possibly, hell even Josh Hodge is still lurking in the background...see how he goes this season...so Freddie will have that shirt but know he needs to improve his weak areas quite quickly.

Marcus Smith and Ford, with Fin Smith or Charlie Atkinson (or A.N.Other) as the development 3rd option will be good for the next cycle post world cup.

Most of the backline will need overhauled...and we have some very good talent coming through...but much of it as of yet untested.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

My question on 15 is why Daly wasnt given an extended run

He started there 27 times for England

 

[dirty harry]

He started there 27 times for England

But did he do it consistently? Was he given the confidence of being told hes first choice, and lead into tournaments with that?
James hook was supremely talented, had lots of caps and will go down as a Welsh legend, but noone will know why. He was a poor 10, poor 12, poor 13 and rubbish FB. A wasted talent who never secured the 10 spot consistently.

Daly is cover at best, and IMO he could have been a world class 15, as it stands hes been a utility guy.

And that leads to why Steward, who again may be world class has been thrust into a leadership role, in a decision making position at 22, instead of earning his spot, beating out the experience, and learning as he did it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But did he do it consistently? Was he given the confidence of being told hes first choice, and lead into tournaments with that?

Yeah, 21 of those were in a row

 

[MarkyH]

And with a 10 who can't play and is past it apparently so I'd consider them trophies an even greater achievement

I know from your posts you like to ask questions, maybe play devils advocate a little. I'll happily bite (this isn't a criticism btw, its good to be challenged)

Saracens have plenty of strength in depth to win those trophies. Yes Farrell is their preferred 10 but the platform that Saracens build with the depth they have means when Manu Vunipola plays 10 (52 times), or England winger Max Malins plays 10 (18 times), Alex Goode (33 times) and Alex Lozowski (42 times) they still win.

Owen Farrell has started 175 games at 10 for Saracens. The ones I can remember (above) have started 145 games for Saracens at 10 since Farrell debut.

Also, he hasn't been 'past it' for that complete time.

As Rugby fans we see when someone is maybe stifling the way we WANT to play, and as England fan's we see when someone has maybe taken on a role for too long its stopped the development of other players (see players at 8, 9, 12 etc etc).

If Smith would get a proper run at 10 and he isn't up for it, then we have experience as back up, or we have other 10's coming through. You don't just carrying on picking them in the hope it gets good again.

 

[MarkyH]

Yeah, 21 of those were in a row

And was the starting 15 of a team that reach the RWC final.

He's definitely had his chance as the first choice 15