[RWC2019][Quarter-Final 2] New Zealand vs. Ireland (19/10/2019)

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

in hindsight. Why is Andy Farrel then still getting gigs?

I've my doubts about him as a coach but he is successful. In 2015 England were the better team, should have beaten Wales and were beaten in a freak result (sorry Welsh fans). In the 2019 Ireland lost to the best team in the world.

Farrell has demonstrated his defences can take out the best around with Saracens, England, Ireland and the Lions.

 

[Leinster Fan]

With all due respect fella, previous failings should not be their cross to bare, if you constantly remind your next generation and future generations of failure then you will breed and produce failure's, new regime, new players, new gameplan, SAME mindset won't work, your setting yourself up for failure, let your next generation create their own history/legacy rather than chain them to the past...

When I say you and your I don't mean you personally BTW.

I agree entirely, it's just this generation of players is the first I've ever seen emerge, hit peaks, grow old an retire, and seeing them fail so comprehensively at their last stand is devastating.

Hopefully Ronan Kelleher/Harry Byrne/Craig Casey et al will go differently but who knows.

 

[bushytop]

The horror show I was expecting.

We are way off the pace - and have been for 12 months.

3 big problems as I see it.

1. We don't build a squad - or have a strong enough pool of players to build a squad. By that I mean your first 15 does not pick itself and there is a substantial drop off from that. NZ could have any of 30 fellas play today and it wouldn't have dropped their overall performance much. We can't do that.
2. We are too loyal to players. POM has been brutal for ages. Ruddock and then Beirne have consecutive MoMs at 6, yet don't get a look in for the crunch game. Wouldn't have made a difference today, but symptomatic of the mindset.
3. Because of the IRFU's careful management of players, we punch above our weight at 6N and autumn international/summer tour time. At the world cup, everyone else gets their long training camps too so we lose that advantage and take a relative step backward.

Think you've pretty much nailed it, particularly with 3 and 2 in that order.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The Irish thought he was super sexy and we were stupid. Now who's laughing?

Given he's played a part in Ireland winning a grand slam, beating South Africa away, beating New Zealand twice, winning a test series in Australia and getting the number 1 world ranking, however briefly, I don't think many here will criticize his appointment as defence coach.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The Irish thought he was super sexy and we were stupid. Now who's laughing?

 

[Rinkadink]

I think franchising/regional rugby at the expense of domestic depth and competitions is a problem.

You can assemble a decent enough squad but then it starts to look flaky and doesn't provide enough support for a proper professional game. I think the Japanese are looking to approach pro rugby in the correct manner but it may take some time to really reap the rewards. Super Rugby nations may be starting to feel the effects of this kind of things too, Oz before the others due to the falloff below their SR sides (see NRL and Kangaroos for the opposite). SA and NZ have better domestic competitions but numbers and quality are slowly starting to drop, Argentina put all their eggs in the SR basket and they've gone backwards.

If Ireland could figure out a means to grow the game domestically I think they'd go that little bit further.

 

[Reiser99]

The horror show I was expecting.

We are way off the pace - and have been for 12 months.

3 big problems as I see it.

1. We don't build a squad - or have a strong enough pool of players to build a squad. By that I mean your first 15 does not pick itself and there is a substantial drop off from that. NZ could have any of 30 fellas play today and it wouldn't have dropped their overall performance much. We can't do that.
2. We are too loyal to players. POM has been brutal for ages. Ruddock and then Beirne have consecutive MoMs at 6, yet don't get a look in for the crunch game. Wouldn't have made a difference today, but symptomatic of the mindset.
3. Because of the IRFU's careful management of players, we punch above our weight at 6N and autumn international/summer tour time. At the world cup, everyone else gets their long training camps too so we lose that advantage and take a relative step backward.

It did feel like Schmidt was hoping his players would find some form and then had an 'oh ****' moment during the warm ups when he realised they weren't. That's one of the reasons he dropped Toner imo, but the issues went deeper and he hadn't developed a large enough squad of players with caps to replace people with any confidence.

 

[bushytop]

I think franchising/regional rugby at the expense of domestic depth and competitions is a problem.

You can assemble a decent enough squad but then it starts to look flaky and doesn't provide enough support for a proper professional game. I think the Japanese are looking to approach pro rugby in the correct manner but it may take some time to really reap the rewards. Super Rugby nations may be starting to feel the effects of this kind of things too, Oz before the others due to the falloff below their SR sides (see NRL and Kangaroos for the opposite). SA and NZ have better domestic competitions but numbers and quality are slowly starting to drop, Argentina put all their eggs in the SR basket and they've gone backwards.

If Ireland could figure out a means to grow the game domestically I think they'd go that little bit further.

You make some good points rink... and argue them well but they're still a country of only 5.5 million (I think, I haven't checked for a while). I honestly believe the national league model is awesome for countries with the population and financial infrastructure to support it but I'm just not sure Ireland could support that model.

Since Wales (an even smaller population and pool of moneys) went regional our pro club game has obviously been no way near a success but our national team has definitely improved. Ireland have improved over the same time too. As much as you English don't want it, probably the best thing that could happen for Ireland Scotland and Wales would be a B&I League.

 

[munstermuffin]

The horror show I was expecting.

We are way off the pace - and have been for 12 months.

3 big problems as I see it.

1. We don't build a squad - or have a strong enough pool of players to build a squad. By that I mean your first 15 does not pick itself and there is a substantial drop off from that. NZ could have any of 30 fellas play today and it wouldn't have dropped their overall performance much. We can't do that.
2. We are too loyal to players. POM has been brutal for ages. Ruddock and then Beirne have consecutive MoMs at 6, yet don't get a look in for the crunch game. Wouldn't have made a difference today, but symptomatic of the mindset.
3. Because of the IRFU's careful management of players, we punch above our weight at 6N and autumn international/summer tour time. At the world cup, everyone else gets their long training camps too so we lose that advantage and take a relative step backward.

To be fair POM was decent today. Sexton had his worst game in green. And alot more followed. Larmour was the only back that can be proud today.

The game plan became static over the last year and while we stayed still the rest of the world moved on.

 

[munstermuffin]

Earls was our centre cover today. Dead, buried and resting peacefully in the grave on that alone....

We gained a lot in the last six years but we're still firmly in the 5-8 bracket when it matters.

And today showed why he is a worldclass wing and not a centre. It was same vs Samoa. He hasn't a passing game

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

And today showed why he is a worldclass wing and not a centre. It was same vs Samoa. He hasn't a passing game

His positioning was very poor and he was often caught in no man's land. Jordan Larmour will take his place very soon.

 

[munstermuffin]

His positioning was very poor and he was often caught in no man's land. Jordan Larmour will take his place very soon.

Agreed. And today Larmour and Conway were the 2 who profited.
Earls though has been a worldclass wing. Agreed today he was a disaster as was Stockdale and Kearney. But the backline as a whole looked as if they only met today.

 

[Leinster Fan]

And today showed why he is a worldclass wing and not a centre. It was same vs Samoa. He hasn't a passing game

It's been the same for years, he isn't an option there and never has been.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's been the same for years, he isn't an option there and never has been.

And he would say that himself. But he can't be judged on that when we all know he wasn't a centre. I understand why he was put there as Larmour is similar. Not a great passer and Earls was seen as the more experienced option.
But it shows why when we do pick our bench it has to factor in areas like that. But equally I accept it's hard to cover it all

 

[bushytop]

And he would say that himself. But he can't be judged on that when we all know he wasn't a centre. I understand why he was put there as Larmour is similar. Not a great passer and Earls was seen as the more experienced option.
But it shows why when we do pick our bench it has to factor in areas like that. But equally I accept it's hard to cover it all

All ifs, buts and maybes but if that Henshaw at 15 experiment had worked (and Aki hadn't seen Red the other day) it could've been covered perfectly. I know it was probably seen as the main reason (or a big one at least) that Ireland got humped by England that day but maybe Joe just saw how beneficial it would have been should it have worked. As I said though... ifs and buts etc.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't think we need to look to the core of Irish rugby right now. Today wasn't the real **** up, Japan was.

And today showed why he is a worldclass wing and not a centre. It was same vs Samoa. He hasn't a passing game

Yeah, meant no offence to the man, as he said he goes home to the fam and he did his damned best! Just never a centre

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Agreed. And today Larmour and Conway were the 2 who profited.
Earls though has been a worldclass wing. Agreed today he was a disaster as was Stockdale and Kearney. But the backline as a whole looked as if they only met today.

I think this shows a key difference between the sides. New Zealand have lots of options out wide. What other nation can afford to leave somebody like Rieko Ioane out? They select on form. Ireland selected on reputation.

Keith Earls was a world class wing. He hasn't been this year though.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't think we need to look to the core of Irish rugby right now. Today wasn't the real **** up, Japan was.



Yeah, meant no offence to the man, as he said he goes home to the fam and he did his damned best! Just never a centre

100%. And he did what was asked. No player will refuse. Equally Schmidt can't be faulted as he couldn't have seen both centres potentially being concussed in first 5mins and the disruption that followed.

But I do think a mindset and different approach is needed. It's the saying. Keep making the same mistakes and same results follow. That was the case with all these quarter finals over the years.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think this shows a key difference between the sides. New Zealand have lots of options out wide. What other nation can afford to leave somebody like Rieko Ioane out? They select on form. Ireland selected on reputation.

Yes but look at their approach or any of the others. They pick on form but equally with guys over the cycle not short term. And I'll say this isn't a Schmidt era thing. More over all Irish history.

 

[Rinkadink]

As much as you English don't want it, probably the best thing that could happen for Ireland Scotland and Wales would be a B&I League.

I deliberately left out Wales from the example because I could say a lot about it (head is savage right now and stuff on), but in short it breaks my heart with what's happened to the Welsh clubs and I'm not sure Wales's more recent success is due to regions or in spite of them.

Also Wales have been importing a lot, plus I have taken umbrage with the treatment of players like Rhrodri Williams who was told he had to return for international honours after improving elsewhere and then totally ignored. Its complicated and worthy of a whole thread IMO.

As for the quote, there is only a loss/self harm to England if they accepted a B&I league. A second "celtic" competition with clubs could be viable but would need to tie in with P14. Difficult sell.