Rugby World Cup may expand in 2023, says governing body

[Raggs]

The only thing that improves these players is playing strong domestic rugby week in week out be it in their home nation or overseas.

An international once a year isn't going to do the same development.

It won't do the same for their development, but it does put in the in the international eye. I'd bet there'll be a lot of scouts watching games between 2nd/3rd tier nations in the RWC, looking for rough diamonds. Those players will then go on to improve and help their nation.

 

[goodNumber10]

It won't do the same for their development, but it does put in the in the international eye. I'd bet there'll be a lot of scouts watching games between 2nd/3rd tier nations in the RWC, looking for rough diamonds. Those players will then go on to improve and help their nation.

that's got very little to do with my point of smaller teams playing 1st tier teams.

 

[Raggs]

There are comments from those smaller teams that reckoned they learned enormous amounts from playing 1st tier teams, even just the once. Realisation of the intensity, pace, vision, precision etc. In terms of skills it won't make a difference, in terms of understanding what they need to do if they want to compete, it would be far more important.

 

[goodNumber10]

There are comments from those smaller teams that reckoned they learned enormous amounts from playing 1st tier teams, even just the once. Realisation of the intensity, pace, vision, precision etc. In terms of skills it won't make a difference, in terms of understanding what they need to do if they want to compete, it would be far more important.

That's fine, but without the domestic structures and finances to achieve those levels it's just another hiding to nothing.

 

[Feicarsinn]

The only thing that improves these players is playing strong domestic rugby week in week out be it in their home nation or overseas.

An international once a year isn't going to do the same development.

But what's the basis for this idea? Let's take Italy and Scotland as examples, as they're the two weakest tier one sides. Each year they get about 10 first class international games and both have two sides registered in a fully professional league containing several European champions. Despite this neither have shown any real sign of improvement in the last fifteen years. In terms of playing number and general resources these guys are miles ahead of any sides we'd be talking about benefiting here, so if it doesn't work for them why would it work for tier two?

Italy and Scotland's youth sides struggle greatly. That's the area that needs to be improved. By the time a player is old enough to be playing a professional league it's often too late to seriously improve his game (obviously there are exceptions, but an awful lot of that is due to coaching.) WR needs to focus on getting player numbers up and improving the level of instruction those players get at a young age if they want to stand a chance of growing the game outside of the traditional strongholds. I don't think the "learn while doing" attitude towards international rugby which simply giving them more games entails is going to greatly improve matters.

 

[goodNumber10]

But what's the basis for this idea? Let's take Italy and Scotland as examples, as they're the two weakest tier one sides. Each year they get about 10 first class international games and both have two sides registered in a fully professional league containing several European champions. Despite this neither have shown any real sign of improvement in the last fifteen years. In terms of playing number and general resources these guys are miles ahead of any sides we'd be talking about benefiting here, so if it doesn't work for them why would it work for tier two?

Italy and Scotland's youth sides struggle greatly. That's the area that needs to be improved. By the time a player is old enough to be playing a professional league it's often too late to seriously improve his game (obviously there are exceptions, but an awful lot of that is due to coaching.) WR needs to focus on getting player numbers up and improving the level of instruction those players get at a young age if they want to stand a chance of growing the game outside of the traditional strongholds. I don't think the "learn while doing" attitude towards international rugby which simply giving them more games entails is going to greatly improve matters.

Italy have shown plenty fo improvment, as have Argentina - their players have been involved mainly in the Top14.

I agree with everything you're saying though, about improvments at youthleveltructure of these Unions are set up. Giving more games counts for very little if you don't have the infrastructure to use it.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Having seen some of the prices being asked for RWC 2015, I'd have to say this looks like dollar signs appearing in executives' eyes. If people will pay £40 quid to watch Tonga-Georgia then they'll probably pay £25 to watch Russia-West Indies, sod it, why not?

It seems like no good can come of this either in terms of competition or growing the game, or long-term commercial benefit.

 

[smartcooky]

Italy and Scotland's youth sides struggle greatly. That's the area that needs to be improved. By the time a player is old enough to be playing a professional league it's often too late to seriously improve his game (obviously there are exceptions, but an awful lot of that is due to coaching.) WR needs to focus on getting player numbers up and improving the level of instruction those players get at a young age if they want to stand a chance of growing the game outside of the traditional strongholds. I don't think the "learn while doing" attitude towards international rugby which simply giving them more games entails is going to greatly improve matters.

This doesn't always work either. Look at Japan... a very good youth development program, a reasonably strong and highly competitive domestic league with a lot of foreign player involvement, 53,000 adult players and 3620 rugby clubs. Compare that with NZ's 29,000 adult players and 587 clubs and they ought to be doing a lot better than they are.

 

[psychic duck]

This doesn't always work either. Look at Japan... a very good youth development program, a reasonably strong and highly competitive domestic league with a lot of foreign player involvement, 53,000 adult players and 3620 rugby clubs. Compare that with NZ's 29,000 adult players and 587 clubs and they ought to be doing a lot better than they are.

There's no way Japan has 'a very good youth development program'. It's absolutely risible, probably one of the dullest in the world.

 

[munstermuffin]

There's no way Japan has 'a very good youth development program'. It's absolutely risible, probably one of the dullest in the world.

Believe it or not the big issue in Japan is the progression from Youth to Senior players. They do have excellent structures but a lot of there youth progression is harmed by the way clubs over there do business and prefer imports. And then unlike here where in the UK or Ireland there is a middle ground be it AIL here, Welsh league or lower leagues in England the drop from not being a first teamer in Japan to next level is the killer. And they're so away from everywhere that it's not the same opportunity that say a Sean Dougall/ Copeland type path where you can go abroad to a lower league and work your way up.

 

[psychic duck]

Believe it or not the big issue in Japan is the progression from Youth to Senior players. They do have excellent structures but a lot of there youth progression is harmed by the way clubs over there do business and prefer imports. And then unlike here where in the UK or Ireland there is a middle ground be it AIL here, Welsh league or lower leagues in England the drop from not being a first teamer in Japan to next level is the killer. And they're so away from everywhere that it's not the same opportunity that say a Sean Dougall/ Copeland type path where you can go abroad to a lower league and work your way up.

None of that's true. Their youth system is run extremely poorly, need look no further than the Pacific Rugby Challenge to see that, or the likely pounding they will receive in the JWC. That imports point is complete rubbish as well for that matter.

 

[munstermuffin]

None of that's true. Their youth system is run extremely poorly, need look no further than the Pacific Rugby Challenge to see that, or the likely pounding they will receive in the JWC. That imports point is complete rubbish as well for that matter.

I'm on about club systems there not their international teams or results. You may think it's rubbish but having visited before and well simply if you look at basic points it's obvious what I'm saying isn't too far wrong.

 

[nickdnz]

Japan has strict rules on how many foreign players can be fielded in a team (I believe it's two)...

 

[munstermuffin]

Japan has strict rules on how many foreign players can be fielded in a team (I believe it's two)...

I think it's more I may be wrong but I'm on also about guys who play there for team also. I think I saw somewhere there's 10 kiwis there able to play for national team. Obviously they don't but it's an issue.

 

[William18]

Meh, I think this is one of the biggest myths in rugby. Look at Italy. Are their players better for regularly playing tier 1 sides? Has there been any noticeable improvement in Italian rugby since their sides went into the Pro 12? The big benefit of the tier 1 nations playing the smaller sides is exposure - look how many people turned up to watch the All Blacks play the US in Chicago. Games against 'A' sides or local sides wont do that. That's why the Churchill Cup and the IRB Nations Cup didn't really have that much of an effect.

That's why a move like expanding the WC is a more attractive option for World Rugby. It opens up new markets and gives the game a chance to grow in the countries involved, meaning new players down the road. Is it the best way to do things? I don't know, I'm not sure that you should use your premier competition as a tool to grow the game at the cost of its quality. It's all about balance.

If WR and the tier one nations really want to do more they've got to help out with internal structures and coaching. In my opinion everything else is just papering over the cracks.

Is expanding the Rugby World Cup going to provide more exposure? I would be interested to know what sort of coverage the Portugese rugby team gets in Portugal when they are in a World Cup.

The important thing in growing the sport is to provide young players with a pathway so it is realistic for them to take up the sport.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Is expanding the Rugby World Cup going to provide more exposure? I would be interested to know what sort of coverage the Portugese rugby team gets in Portugal when they are in a World Cup.

The important thing in growing the sport is to provide young players with a pathway so it is realistic for them to take up the sport.

I 100% agree with the second point. That's the way forward. get them hooked and give them the coaching and facilities they need to compete.

As for the first, I'd base it largely off Ireland's experience with the Cricket World Cup. Since 2007, when Ireland beat Pakistan, the sport has received a noticeable increase in coverage and interest in the general populace. I don't have any facts to back this up, but you'd have to imagine that'd translate into more kids picking the game up. I'm thinking WR may be thinking along the same lines. I also seem to remember Georgia getting a raft load of new facilities (or at least the promise of such) from their government after the 07 rugby world cup.

That said, I don't agree with this strategy of trying to expand the game. It's lazy and devalues the World Cup.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm just going to leave this here:

Eddie Jones says Japanese rugby needs to overhaul structure to compete

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-rugby-needs-to-overhaul-structure-to-compete

 

[Donalinho]

Interesting chat lads. I think Rugby World Cup expansion could lead to a more interesting tournament.


My proposal for 24 team rugby World Cup:


* Six groups of four teams.

* Each group contains one each from:

6 Nations

Rugby Championship 4 plus southern nations Namibia and Uruguay

Pacific Nations Cup (Canada, USA, Japan, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga)

European Nations Cup (Georgia, Romania, Russia, Portugal, Spain and (currently) Germany)


For example (alphabetical order):

Pool 1: England, Argentina, Canada, Georgia

Pool 2: France, Australia, Fiji, Germany

Pool 3: Ireland, Namibia, Japan, Portugal

Pool 4: Italy, New Zealand, Samoa, Romania

Pool 5: Scotland, South Africa, Tonga, Russia

Pool 6: Wales, Uruguay, USA, Spain


* Winners, runners-up and three best third place teams make the second round (the round of 16), perhaps using bonus point system to better measure third place teams.

* Shield competition for the eight eliminated teams


Disadvantages:

* The slightly messy "best third place teams" system (although this does avoid the early elimination - as in 2015 - of two from England, Australia, Wales and Fiji).

* Unbalanced groups with Namibia or Uruguay rather than one of the Rugby Championship nations (although this leads to a level of wildcard unpredictability in the draw process and group stages, and anyway it's hard to imagine any of the better teams failing to qualify from a group as runners-up or as one of the better third place teams).

* An exotic minnow at the tournament, i.e. Germany (every one of the other countries has competed at a recent World Cup).


Advantages:

* Less predictable than current tournament format, while ensuring that all the best teams can compete at the knockout stages along with the best of the outsiders.

* More inter-regional matches against teams from other competitions, e.g. European teams can measure themselves against Pacific and southern nations rather than competing in a "6 Nations lite" of France, Ireland, Italy, Romania and Canada.

* Fewer mismatches. With the four-team groups, the best teams should usually face no more than one outright minnow - along with another Tier 1 nation and a Pacific Nation - in the group stages.

* Every team has something to play for. For example, Spain overturning USA or Uruguay and sneaking into the second round would be a landmark achievement in Iberian rugby.