Rugby Championship: Australia - New Zealand (18/08/2012)

[Draggs]

Yeah one test doesn't mean he's suddenly not as good. He was brilliant in the H Cup final and the 2nd test. He'll up it for the Lions.

True, but to say he is the best outside centre would be pushing it.
He would get the nod for the Lions only because the lack of experience in his rivals and the high probably of Jamie Roberts starting at inside centre.

 

[big ginger 8]

True, but to say he is the best outside centre would be pushing it.
He would get the nod for the Lions only because the lack of experience in his rivals and the high probably of Jamie Roberts starting at inside centre.

Or by simply returning to be the best and being a better player than the competitors...

Anyway Davies will in all likelihood have 34 caps and Tuilagi will have 18 while not BO'D levels of experience still fairly good.

That's my last bit of Lions discussion on this thread.

 

[admartian]

I would love to see how we would play at full strength and how different things would be. The All Blacks dont have one player that could make that side better – that is as full strength as it gets for them unless you mount an argument that Nonu or SBW should make way for Conrd Smith but I think that the result of such change would be negligible.

That certainly wasn't a full strength performance at any rate.

That was probably just below 50% AB intensity and efficiency; probably close to 50% referee whistle-happy-ness; and 25% dropsys. But 100% win regardless of how anyone puts it.



:lol:

 

[Larksea]

interesting game, wallabies game plan was part of their undoing, trying to run it from everywhere? First real test of the season? Mad... I think it's the kind of gameplan that they may beat the All Blacks with maybe 1 in 5-6 tests they play but is that the success rate they are going for? I sense a lot of Negative feeling towards Deans right now and this game would not have helped. All Blacks won pretty much un-threatened without really getting out of 3rd gear. If a couple more passes stuck it would have been a 20 point win - that must worry them looking forward to Auckland.

All Blacks obviously made changes to their defense, coming up very fast. Seemed to work well for the most part but changes in this area I think take time to settle. Also consider that oppositions will have now seen the change and adjust to it.

Lot of talk about Messam, he did have overall a good game. His hands were a bit of a worry but not the end of the world, he will fix that. He also topped the board for running meters and mad a line break or two What really made up for it and more was his defense, in many ways he led the All Blacks defense with his style and urgency. Not a massive tackle count overall but if he makes 3-5 big tackles that turn the ball over and stop opposition progress. made one super impressive tackle 1 on 1 with Beale who had space to run, shut him down and into touch, that would have looked good even for conrad smith and I would have been really worried if Nonu had to make that one - as it was kinda his position on the park. His breakdown/clearout work was also worthy of note - I tend to agree with the commentary who said he was one of the All Blacks best behind Dagg, but he definitely wont be happy with his handling. two forward passes, I would not count the knock on as he got two defenders, ball strip and a three head clash at the same time (first three way head clash I think I've every seen, impressive).

Dagg was pretty impressive, his first try was all about SBW and Gear running decoy and leaving a huge gap out wide well taken though.

Smith was impressive too, cleared well under pressure Dan seemed to get good ball.

Something was not kicking in the backline though, not sure what it was. Nonu was unsighted for long periods and missed a lot of tackles. I wonder maybe if that combo would have worked better with Nonu at 12 and SBW at 13. At least they should have both taken turns outside carter. Something wasn't right.

Romano had a good showing too I thought, looked busy, couple of really strong tackles and a good carry. Only one take in the lineout and on that note credit should be given to whitelock and his 8 from 8 takes. Bit of a cameo from Retalick who came on made 7 tackles and 2 takes off the bench.

Mealamu had a strong game and Hore was good off the bench, I think between them they won 4 turnovers which in the overall context of the game was a major killer for the wallabies.

Overall the AB's were all pretty solid, just lacked some continuity basically across the park so they still have a lot of room to improve. I really dont think the ref helpded, shocker really, something like 26 penalties? And really did not play advantage well.

 

[Darwin]

interesting game, wallabies game plan was part of their undoing, trying to run it from everywhere? First real test of the season? Mad... I think it's the kind of gameplan that they may beat the All Blacks with maybe 1 in 5-6 tests they play but is that the success rate they are going for? I sense a lot of Negative feeling towards Deans right now and this game would not have helped. All Blacks won pretty much un-threatened without really getting out of 3rd gear. If a couple more passes stuck it would have been a 20 point win - that must worry them looking forward to Auckland.

All Blacks obviously made changes to their defense, coming up very fast. Seemed to work well for the most part but changes in this area I think take time to settle. Also consider that oppositions will have now seen the change and adjust to it.

Lot of talk about Messam, he did have overall a good game. His hands were a bit of a worry but not the end of the world, he will fix that. He also topped the board for running meters and mad a line break or two What really made up for it and more was his defense, in many ways he led the All Blacks defense with his style and urgency. Not a massive tackle count overall but if he makes 3-5 big tackles that turn the ball over and stop opposition progress. made one super impressive tackle 1 on 1 with Beale who had space to run, shut him down and into touch, that would have looked good even for conrad smith and I would have been really worried if Nonu had to make that one - as it was kinda his position on the park. His breakdown/clearout work was also worthy of note - I tend to agree with the commentary who said he was one of the All Blacks best behind Dagg, but he definitely wont be happy with his handling. two forward passes, I would not count the knock on as he got two defenders, ball strip and a three head clash at the same time (first three way head clash I think I've every seen, impressive).

Dagg was pretty impressive, his first try was all about SBW and Gear running decoy and leaving a huge gap out wide well taken though.

Smith was impressive too, cleared well under pressure Dan seemed to get good ball.

Something was not kicking in the backline though, not sure what it was. Nonu was unsighted for long periods and missed a lot of tackles. I wonder maybe if that combo would have worked better with Nonu at 12 and SBW at 13. At least they should have both taken turns outside carter. Something wasn't right.

Romano had a good showing too I thought, looked busy, couple of really strong tackles and a good carry. Only one take in the lineout and on that note credit should be given to whitelock and his 8 from 8 takes. Bit of a cameo from Retalick who came on made 7 tackles and 2 takes off the bench.

Mealamu had a strong game and Hore was good off the bench, I think between them they won 4 turnovers which in the overall context of the game was a major killer for the wallabies.

Overall the AB's were all pretty solid, just lacked some continuity basically across the park so they still have a lot of room to improve. I really dont think the ref helpded, shocker really, something like 26 penalties? And really did not play advantage well.

I agree with most of that. In general I thought that Messam's performance had more positives than negatives, so would be happy to see him starting at 6 again next week.

The midfield did lack cohesion, though I don't think anyone should be surprised by that. Nonu did look a bit lost at times at 13, but I don't think his defense was as bad as you are suggesting - indeed he did a lot of very good work on defense. I'm assuming you got your missed tackle stats from the Haka.co.nz site, but as I've mentioned before, they are far from the most reliable stats around (I certainly didn't see him miss 4 tackles!). Scrum.com have him making 13 tackles and missing 0, while Rugbystats.com.au have him making 14 tackles and missing 2. That represents a pretty good defensive performance in my opinion - especially when his midfield partner (SBW) only made about a 1/4 as many tackles! It really makes you wonder what SBW was doing when the AB's were on defense (practicing that ridiculous handshake with Dagg?). It is not going to happen, but I do think they should just move Nonu into 12 and play either Smith or Ellison at centre - if they really have to they could play SBW on the bench...

Anyways, both teams have an injury concern going onto this weekends match, with Pocock seeing a specialist today about a knee injury, while Woodcock is in doubt with a rib injury. If Pocock is out it would be a massive blow for the Wallabies, as though Hooper and Gill are very talented, they are very inexperienced. It will be interesting to see what the AB's do is Woodcock is out - they could either bring Crockett straight into the starting lineup (and keep Ben Franks on the bench), or they could start Ben Franks and bring Charlie Faumuina onto the bench.

 

[Larksea]

not saying nonu had a bad game or anything, I think with missed tackles rather than the stat that varies it's the definition of what constitutes a missed tackle, makes reporting that stat even more murky.

but his impact on the game was very minimal. Very unlike what I'm used to seeing from Nonu, I wonder with the positional change and the different requirements it has on defense he was maybe transfixed on that and his ball carrying game took a back seat. Who knows.

Losing Pocock you would think would be a massive loss for the wallabies, but they actually have a few very impressive young open sides. Couple that with the fact that the All Blacks seem to be able to come up with ways of countering Pocock, overall I dont think it will be their biggest worry. Their loose forward trio as a whole was quiet pretty much outdone by the work of McCaw and Messam in particular but I'd say also the feats of Franks and Woodcock was much much greater compared to their opposites in that area. Maybe they have focused selections and training for their front row on the scrum and for size and clearly given away the mobility edge in that area. Dennis was hardly in the game, what do they do about him?

Beale will get another shot but will Barnes?

 

[Darwin]

not saying nonu had a bad game or anything, I think with missed tackles rather than the stat that varies it's the definition of what constitutes a missed tackle, makes reporting that stat even more murky.

but his impact on the game was very minimal. Very unlike what I'm used to seeing from Nonu, I wonder with the positional change and the different requirements it has on defense he was maybe transfixed on that and his ball carrying game took a back seat. Who knows.

Nonu's impact on attack was minimal because he barely touched the ball! Because the game was very disjointed the ball seldom made it out into the backline, and when it did SBW usually jogged up to the line and offloaded (into the ground on several occasions). Indeed the only time I can really recall Nonu with ball in hand was when he picked it up at the base of the breakdown and made a good pass out to Messam (who ran and passed to Gear who was tackled out in the corner). Scrum.com credit him with 0 runs, 0 passes, and 0 kicks - this seems very strange at first, until I worked out that they classify offloads (of which he made 3) as being different to passes (why, I don't know). This suggests that he had the in hand only 3 times this match, and when SBW is only credited with 3 passes (+ 2 offloads) this is probably unsurprising!

Losing Pocock you would think would be a massive loss for the wallabies, but they actually have a few very impressive young open sides. Couple that with the fact that the All Blacks seem to be able to come up with ways of countering Pocock, overall I dont think it will be their biggest worry. Their loose forward trio as a whole was quiet pretty much outdone by the work of McCaw and Messam in particular but I'd say also the feats of Franks and Woodcock was much much greater compared to their opposites in that area. Maybe they have focused selections and training for their front row on the scrum and for size and clearly given away the mobility edge in that area. Dennis was hardly in the game, what do they do about him?

Beale will get another shot but will Barnes?

In terms of the Wallabies I think they have a lot of selection issues to consider. Dennis was quiet, but that was because he was doing a lot of work in the tight, while the likes of Higginbotham and Sharpe were standing out in the backline! I think he is vital for the Wallabies if they are to compete with the other packs in the Tri-Nations, as he is one of the few Australian forwards who doesn't mind doing a lot of work in the tight (and they need his lineout ability if the are going to continue to play Timani). I remain unconvinced with Higginbotham at test level, but Australia don't have any better options at the moment.

I would be surprised if we don't see Quade Cooper somewhere in the mix this weekend. As I have mentioned before I think Australia's only chance of beating the AB's at the moment is with Cooper at 10. Yes his defense is still poor. Yes he is still very inconsistent. Yes he is likely to make 2-3 silly mistakes per game. However when he fires he can almost single-handedly take any opposition apart. The chances are that Australia will still lose with Cooper at 10, however I think they have a much better chance of pulling off an upset with him there, as I can't see them beating the AB's with an ultra conservative player like Barnes at 10. The Aussie midfield needs changing too in my opinion (AAC to centre, and maybe even Barnes moving out a spot to 12), while they may be tempted to bring Mitchell in on the wing. They will stick with Beale at fullback, as I'm sure he can't have two shockers in a row!

 

[madflyhalf]

Everything has been said, I have small time but I think Wallabies have 2 big problems

1) breakdown & tight game
Sometimes they have too much player involved in the breakdowns, even when it's not needed! They tend to slow down too much sometimes, and there are few new structures that don't work well.
They work well with 3-man unit 5 or 6 meters from the ruck that:
- allows those 3 to setup a quick ruck even if not advancing is quick
- allows Genia to explore those 5-6mt both running or choosing which one of the 3 are the reciver (great reading of the defence)
- if there's space the reciver of the unit spin the ball back to the flyhalf who plays wide with the backs
- can be used as decoy runners

Indeed they scored severly tries in these last 2 years with this structures (vs. All Blacks, Springboks, Wales etc).

Since June it seems they don't use it, and they use more a straight tight runner close to the breakdown. But that doesn't suite much the Wallaby style, Genia deliver slowly because he's smart and he uses to take decision and not working like a robot.
Too many times in this pattern the ball is lost in contact, it creates slow ball, and more difficult advancing possession!

I hope they return quickly to the previous structures and pattern, which they still use but not so much

2) width of the line
Too many times they are too close to each others, without exploring properly the width of the field.
Suppose:
- 3 All Blacks involved in bd
- 1 sh behind
- the back 3
There're still 8 players on the defensive line that has 65 meters to defend. 8.125m per player
Imagine if you reduce those meters to 40 (as the Wallabies backline is often positioned): it makes 5m, you gift the defence with more than 3 meters. And 3 meters could mean a big gap!

Looks like they doesn't want to test the defence in wider spaces (which is simpler!), they just want to punch them straightly and immediatly, but they're not big enough or they doesn't create any question mark to their direct opposition!

Those 2 things are a bit new to the Wallabies pattern, and I fear that there's someone's hand behind, an Australian coach that worked with a big club in Europe whose gamestyle ABSOLUTELY doesn't fit Wallabies one.

I hope they would come back to the 2010-2011 structures that suited much more their players and gamestyle, though I read an ambigous declaration from Deans about first phase try, he said it's impossibile at this level to concede those.
Which is fairly true, but don't forget that in 1st phase you have 8 opposition players sticked in 5m, and 2 or 3 behind, the spaces are wide and you can explore the defence even if its' still not under pressure!

1st phase ball are GOLD! Where are the 2010 Wallabies that scored plenty of tries from 1st phases ball, against anyone (England, Ireland, All Blacks, Springboks, France...)??


Beside those things, you can just look to an anonymous and predictable pairing centre, a shocking 8-man (I'd give up with Higgers at test level for a while), again a shocker from your 15 (maybe with too less gametime), 2 invisbile prop (at least in open game, again I hate to repeat myself: Robinson has to be dropped!).
Add 4 key man injuried or unselected...

They were lucky to get so close to the All Blacks till 79'



I'm so sad


And I dare to say: Timani was everywhere!

Maybe his work was not so effective, probably because if you're everywhere, you can't be extremely effective.
But anyway, he was really everywhere in the tight game!

I'm a bit surprised. And worried :huh:

 

[matrightyeh]

aussies got no chance winning over there

 

[Icemn]

I wonder maybe if that combo would have worked better with Nonu at 12 and SBW at 13. At least they should have both taken turns outside carter. Something wasn't right.

i mentioned this last week, no-one commented...

SBW was nowhere in that game. Nonu need to move to 12 and Ben smith need to come in on 13, he reminds me a lot of Conrad Smith. What a talent aaron smith is, he looked way better than Genia in that big game. Messam was okish, but i expected more of him, i just think he should have passed the ball a lot sooner out to Gear or kept the ball and ran over the defence, he did neither. Jane to me was also a bit rusty as was Read. Gear was also a bit too quite for me, might be cuz of the ref. Carter seemed layed back at times, i don't know if its cuz he doen't have a nerve lol of ifs his in world of his own :? so i don't know if its a good or bad thing :?

 

[smartcooky]

......not to mention the carried back rule when Aus kicked it out on the full.

While I agree that Rolland had a poor game, I just wanted to pull you up on this.

If you are talking about that incident when Barnes kicked out and two All Blacks (Dagg & Gear?) tried a quick throw in, well Rolland was correct on that.

Yes the ball was thrown back over the 22m, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Aussie couldn't kick the ball out on the full.

Genia passed the ball back over the 22m, but the receiver pass to a player who was tackled and a ruck formed, then the ball was kicked out. The fact that a defender was tackled behind the 22m means the "no gain scenario" is reset.

[TEXTAREA]LAW 19.1
(f) Player takes ball into their own 22. When a defending player plays the ball from outside the 22 and it goes into that player's 22 or in-goal area and it touches an opposition player, or a tackle takes place or a ruck or maul is formed and then the ball is kicked by a player of that team directly in touch, the throw-in is where the ball went into touch.[/TEXTAREA]

So... Player outside 22m passes to team-mate inside 22m and

1. He kicks to touch - NO GAIN IN GROUND
2. He passes to a team-mate who kicks to touch - NO GAIN IN GROUND
3. He is tackled or passes to a team-mate who is tackled, and then another team-mate kicks to touch - GAIN IN GROUND

 

[Dizzy]

I hate you overlysmartcooky

The thing about BOD is that, I don't think he has ever had an outstanding game against the All Blacks, Heineken Cup is really irrelevant when it comes to rating who is the best in the world due to the fact that it is a franchise style competition and I wish people would stop saying hes the best based on his club performances..

 

[big ginger 8]

I hate you overlysmartcooky

The thing about BOD is that, I don't think he has ever had an outstanding game against the All Blacks, Heineken Cup is really irrelevant when it comes to rating who is the best in the world due to the fact that it is a franchise style competition and I wish people would stop saying hes the best based on his club performances..

I'll bite it's not like anyone say's he's one of the greats because of his brilliant performances on two Lions series and well over 100 international tests nah it's all based on the inferior H Cup isn't it.

 

[Rhyer]

Both teams were poor in the forwards but the referee just killed the game.

 

[Dizzy]

I'll bite it's not like anyone say's he's one of the greats because of his brilliant performances on two Lions series and well over 100 international tests nah it's all based on the inferior H Cup isn't it.

I'll nibble! haha... Hey it's not like I'm saying hes not a "great", the man has had a long illustrious career, I'll admit to not seeing much of O'Driscoll other than in the World Cup and when he has played against the All Blacks, but it's just that when he has been praised before a game like a god, It's a real let down when I watch the game and he's rendered ineffective.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'll nibble! haha... Hey it's not like I'm saying hes not a "great", the man has had a long illustrious career, I'll admit to not seeing much of O'Driscoll other than in the World Cup and when he has played against the All Blacks, but it's just that when he has been praised before a game like a god, It's a real let down when I watch the game and he's rendered ineffective.

He was pretty good in the 2006 game if I recall. Got a very good try in 2010 too.

 

[tenpm]

While I agree that Rolland had a poor game, I just wanted to pull you up on this.

If you are talking about that incident when Barnes kicked out and two All Blacks (Dagg & Gear?) tried a quick throw in, well Rolland was correct on that.

Yes the ball was thrown back over the 22m, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Aussie couldn't kick the ball out on the full.

Genia passed the ball back over the 22m, but the receiver pass to a player who was tackled and a ruck formed, then the ball was kicked out. The fact that a defender was tackled behind the 22m means the "no gain scenario" is reset.

[TEXTAREA]LAW 19.1
(f) Player takes ball into their own 22. When a defending player plays the ball from outside the 22 and it goes into that player's 22 or in-goal area and it touches an opposition player, or a tackle takes place or a ruck or maul is formed and then the ball is kicked by a player of that team directly in touch, the throw-in is where the ball went into touch.[/TEXTAREA]

So... Player outside 22m passes to team-mate inside 22m and

1. He kicks to touch - NO GAIN IN GROUND
2. He passes to a team-mate who kicks to touch - NO GAIN IN GROUND
3. He is tackled or passes to a team-mate who is tackled, and then another team-mate kicks to touch - GAIN IN GROUND

I had just learnt about that rule two weeks ago! Watching the game, I was jumping up and down shouting at the commentators because they thought that there should have been no gain in ground.

 

[big ginger 8]

I'll nibble! haha... Hey it's not like I'm saying hes not a "great", the man has had a long illustrious career, I'll admit to not seeing much of O'Driscoll other than in the World Cup and when he has played against the All Blacks, but it's just that when he has been praised before a game like a god, It's a real let down when I watch the game and he's rendered ineffective.

You try playing for Ireland against N.Z... There's a reason he's Called BO'D and it's not just the initials. BO'D uber alles! I know it's only a Magners League game (albeit the final) but I think this clip comes as close to summing up as is possible and probably still doesn't do him justice what makes him special which is not his skills alone.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pu7NbNBV7Bw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[smartcooky]

You try playing for Ireland against N.Z... There's a reason he's Called BO'D and it's not just the initials. BO'D uber alles! I know it's only a Magners League game (albeit the final) but I think this clip comes as close to summing up as is possible and probably still doesn't do him justice what makes him special which is not his skills alone.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pu7NbNBV7Bw" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Holy crap there was a lot of illegal holding and charging of players off the ball by Munster in that clip.

 

[big ginger 8]

Holy crap there was a lot of illegal holding and charging of players off the ball by Munster in that clip.

They're one of the "cutest" teams out there. Apparently they were the main team used in a video for refs on what to look out for a season or two ago.