Round 7 - Waratahs v Blues

[sanzar]

Originally posted by The TRUTH!!+Mar 25 2006, 02:08 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Wally

@Mar 25 2006, 02:30 AM
Crusaders v Waratahs final. Telstra Stadium - 80, 000 people. That would be special for us in Australia,

That would be special for everyone, thats the only thing this comp lacks is a great grand final to rival the other codes. [/b]

Yeah, but the comp doesn't go long enough, and in reality is more of a curtain raiser to the international season... whereas the NRL and AFL are THE competition's for their respective codes, both featuring lengthy h&a season's and extensive finals formats. By the time you get to either the AFL or NRL GF the interest level is incredibly intense... the S14 has barely over half the time to build that, and once it's finished everyone immediately looks to who's gonna be in the national squads.

 

[aussie1st]

Nucifora should have taken the Wallabies job now huh

 

[Gay-Guy]

Originally posted by sanzar+Mar 25 2006, 07:36 PM-->

Originally posted by The TRUTH!!@Mar 25 2006, 02:08 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Wally

@Mar 25 2006, 02:30 AM
Crusaders v Waratahs final. Telstra Stadium - 80, 000 people. That would be special for us in Australia,

That would be special for everyone, thats the only thing this comp lacks is a great grand final to rival the other codes.

Yeah, but the comp doesn't go long enough, and in reality is more of a curtain raiser to the international season... whereas the NRL and AFL are THE competition's for their respective codes, both featuring lengthy h&a season's and extensive finals formats. By the time you get to either the AFL or NRL GF the interest level is incredibly intense... the S14 has barely over half the time to build that, and once it's finished everyone immediately looks to who's gonna be in the national squads. [/b]

Hahaha...

In NZ and S.A. we don't and never did need the Super10/12/14 for rugby to survive here.......

True to say the Super comp is of a higher profile than maybe the NPC or Currie Cup.....but it is not the be all end all of NZ or S.A. rugby....nor is the Tri-nations....



Anyway back on topic

Ripper Posted on Mar 25 2006, 12:43 PM
  The sad thing is that when Henry gets these boys in the All Black jersey they start to play like Demi-Gods... even Pat f***ing Lam at least has the guys playing to their potential. [/b]

Lol!!!! yep......even Patty can turn these guys into supermen...and Pat Lam isn't even in th same class as Henry.

Interesting to note that Deaker on radio (yeah I know...I listen to Talkback) mentioned that the only ***les the Blues have won have been under Auckland coaches....all their years of floundering have been because of non Auckland coaches.

Interesting to note that because useless Pat Lam....at least he is an Aucklander.....he got some results in the NPC with these guys!

 

[sanzar]

Originally posted by Gay-Guy+Mar 26 2006, 11:11 AM-->

Originally posted by sanzar@Mar 25 2006, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by The TRUTH!!@Mar 25 2006, 02:08 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Wally

@Mar 25 2006, 02:30 AM
Crusaders v Waratahs final. Telstra Stadium - 80, 000 people. That would be special for us in Australia,

That would be special for everyone, thats the only thing this comp lacks is a great grand final to rival the other codes.

Yeah, but the comp doesn't go long enough, and in reality is more of a curtain raiser to the international season... whereas the NRL and AFL are THE competition's for their respective codes, both featuring lengthy h&a season's and extensive finals formats. By the time you get to either the AFL or NRL GF the interest level is incredibly intense... the S14 has barely over half the time to build that, and once it's finished everyone immediately looks to who's gonna be in the national squads.

Hahaha...

In NZ and S.A. we don't and never did need the Super10/12/14 for rugby to survive here.......

True to say the Super comp is of a higher profile than maybe the NPC or Currie Cup.....but it is not the be all end all of NZ or S.A. rugby....nor is the Tri-nations....

[/b]

Sorry GG, not exactly sure on what you're saying here... You mean that unlike Aus, NZ and SA would be fine not having the S14 at all because they have the NPC and Currie Cup? If that's what you're saying, then I'm not really sure how it relates to my point, as I was basically saying that the S14 wasn't capable of having a GF as big as the AFL or NRL because it generally feels more like a curtain raiser to the international season... Are you telling me that more kiwi's care about their team winning the NPC than the AB's winning the TN and/or getting a Grand Slam? Because with last years NPC final failing to fill out the stadium I didn't really think that looked to be the case.

 

[Mr. Laxative]

Rogers likely to miss
March 25, 2006 - 1:26pm
Story by: Sportal
The New South Wales Waratahs have been dealt an injury blow with confirmation that flyhalf Mat Rogers has damaged some cartilage in his ribs.
The injury was incurred during his teams 43-9 win in round seven of the Super 14 competition, and Rogers is now an unlikely starter for next weeks clash Against the Cheetahs at Aussie Stadium.
Waratahs coach Ewen Mckenzie is hopeful that his star player will be right for the match, and has pointed towards his proven powers of recovery to help him over the line.
"The scan has revealed damage but given Mat's high tolerance level for pain and renowned rapid recovery we'll probably have a better idea of his playing status in two or three days," McKenzie said.
"At this point you'd think he'd miss our next match but it's too early to say if it's going to be longer than that."

 

[Gay-Guy]

Originally posted by sanzar+Mar 26 2006, 12:38 PM-->

Originally posted by Gay-Guy@Mar 26 2006, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by sanzar@Mar 25 2006, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by The TRUTH!!@Mar 25 2006, 02:08 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Wally

@Mar 25 2006, 02:30 AM
Crusaders v Waratahs final. Telstra Stadium - 80, 000 people. That would be special for us in Australia,

That would be special for everyone, thats the only thing this comp lacks is a great grand final to rival the other codes.

Yeah, but the comp doesn't go long enough, and in reality is more of a curtain raiser to the international season... whereas the NRL and AFL are THE competition's for their respective codes, both featuring lengthy h&a season's and extensive finals formats. By the time you get to either the AFL or NRL GF the interest level is incredibly intense... the S14 has barely over half the time to build that, and once it's finished everyone immediately looks to who's gonna be in the national squads.

Hahaha...

In NZ and S.A. we don't and never did need the Super10/12/14 for rugby to survive here.......

True to say the Super comp is of a higher profile than maybe the NPC or Currie Cup.....but it is not the be all end all of NZ or S.A. rugby....nor is the Tri-nations....

Sorry GG, not exactly sure on what you're saying here... You mean that unlike Aus, NZ and SA would be fine not having the S14 at all because they have the NPC and Currie Cup? If that's what you're saying, then I'm not really sure how it relates to my point, as I was basically saying that the S14 wasn't capable of having a GF as big as the AFL or NRL because it generally feels more like a curtain raiser to the international season... Are you telling me that more kiwi's care about their team winning the NPC than the AB's winning the TN and/or getting a Grand Slam? Because with last years NPC final failing to fill out the stadium I didn't really think that looked to be the case. [/b]

Well what I meant was that the expansion of Super rugby is not necessarily needed for kiwis......it is good in some respects but we don't live and die on it.

Even the tri nations concept...we were fine before it and we will still be around if it collapsed.

So for us kiwis the need for a bigger longer Super season with consequently a more prolific grand final isn't neccessarily in our best interests from a national perspective. We still want the NPC to be valued (even though it is second to S14) and I am sure S.A would be devasted if their Currie Cup was scraped for an oexpanded international club comp. A bit like the Champions league in European soccer......it is a great comp but it would be tragic if anyone pushed for it to be expanded at the expense of all the domestic comps.

The NZ rugby structure is one of the best in the world.

In NZ we have rugby catering for all players at all levels throughout the year...there is no "waiting in limbo" stage. The S14 is seen as a pre-season comp for the Elite only. After the S14 those that are AB material go into camp to prepare for the pre tri nations series. Those that miss out but are very very good S14 go into camp for NPC while playing a few "club" games. Those who totally sucked at S14 level and are not even wanted by their provinces go play these club games.

So a new unknown players career in NZ starting at the bottom to the top normally would go (unless they are fast tracked) like so. Early Feb they have club trials for the premier team. If he makes it to premier then good...if not then Senior B or other stuff. If he plays well in Club (March to June/July) then he may be selected for Provincial..otherwise his season is over. Provincial is July-Oct....if he is a standout star in a Division one team he may get selected for the AB "development" tour (yep...really the end of year tours up north are experiments). If he goes on that tour he will definetely have a S14 contract the following year (or if he makes the NPC he may still get a S14 spot regardless). The next year if he is a form player of the S14 (which is really a trial for that years AB players) he will get an AB spot in the early domestic season internationals. If he does well there he will be asked for the top spot of NZ rugby, a place in the AB squad for the Tri-nations (different from the AB squads for domestic and end of year north tour) otherwise it is back in the NPC mix to re-master his skills....... and so the cycle goes on.

Basically it is equal opportunity for anyone who wants to make it. Even anyone in a lower NPC team can shift to play club rugby in a top province and await a chance to be noticed (and you will be noticed if you are good enough).

If other countries get their domestic structure fixed up then little NZ will start to find winning very very difficult. Particularly S.A. with all their talent. Henry wanted to fix up the Welsh administration to follow the NZ infrastructure but he was blocked by old men who couldn't see any good thing past the 70's.

So back on topic..
...sometimes in the NZ infrastructure you get guys like Lavea who try and skip the system thinking that their skills elsewhere will complement them in NZ rugby. Well what happens is that they do some good for a while....then their basics that they should have ironed out in reserve grade club rugby start to become exploited. Lavea needs to be dropped from S14 and put into the NPC wringer or go down more to Auckland Club rugby....and never show his head again until he stands out at those grades first.

They did this back to basics technique to lots of AB's.....Bunce, Merhts, Lomu, Ripper :lol:

 

[sanzar]

Point taken GG, and a solid point it is indeed! Still though, all I was really doing was explaining to the Truth why I didn't think the S14 was capable of reaching the same status as either the NRL or AFL because most Aussies think of the S14 as a curtain raiser to the international season... I wasn't really making any comment with regard to development. That said, if the ARU were to pull its finger out and establish an NPC like national comp, then our system would be on a similar level to yours, with all the left over players getting a run in the local city comps like the Toohey's New Cup etc.

 

[Gay-Guy]

Yeah we kiwis realise that the Aussie rugby structure could do well with better restructuring....but we are hoping they never get it together lol!

Or we hope for the continual dominance of League and AFL and that soccer comp lol!

Just don't get it right with your Union admins eh B)

Back on topic...........
........Sailor has really improved with his high ball stuff.......

 

[sambãd5]

Originally posted by sanzar@Mar 26 2006, 09:42 PM
Point taken GG, and a solid point it is indeed! Still though, all I was really doing was explaining to the Truth why I didn't think the S14 was capable of reaching the same status as either the NRL or AFL because most Aussies think of the S14 as a curtain raiser to the international season... I wasn't really making any comment with regard to development. That said, if the ARU were to pull its finger out and establish an NPC like national comp, then our system would be on a similar level to yours, with all the left over players getting a run in the local city comps like the Toohey's New Cup etc.

thats because rugby has a international season

imo, i would rather have a stunning npc season than watch the abs win a tri nations. (key word being stunning) npc vs s14. npc every time.

 

[BigTen]

I was very curious when I saw the scoreboard during the Waratahs v Blues game.

In brackets, next to the Blues, were the initials NZ.

Now I realise that some teams from New South Wales are also known as "Blues" and this poses a very interesting question.

Are the Waratahs fans too stupid, even after ten plus seasons, to know the name of their team or is it that the Waratahs administrators just think that their fans are too stupid to know the difference?

 

[sanzar]

Originally posted by sambãd5+Mar 26 2006, 08:36 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-sanzar

@Mar 26 2006, 09:42 PM
Point taken GG, and a solid point it is indeed! Still though, all I was really doing was explaining to the Truth why I didn't think the S14 was capable of reaching the same status as either the NRL or AFL because most Aussies think of the S14 as a curtain raiser to the international season... I wasn't really making any comment with regard to development. That said, if the ARU were to pull its finger out and establish an NPC like national comp, then our system would be on a similar level to yours, with all the left over players getting a run in the local city comps like the Toohey's New Cup etc.

thats because rugby has a international season

imo, i would rather have a stunning npc season than watch the abs win a tri nations. (key word being stunning) npc vs s14. npc every time. [/b]

Alot of kiwi's say that, but then every time I see a game of it the stadiums are virtually empty! NRL games get bad crowds too, but it's dependan on which team's and what time of the year and then there are certain teams (eg Newcastle) that get 20,000 all the time! If the NPC is such a big deal, why don't more teams (or any for that matter) play to capacity crowds? I've never seen an NPC match that was more than a 3rd full in the grandstands (barring last years GF, which was more like 3/4 full... still shockingly low for a GF of such proportions I thought).

 

[Wally]

The casual Australian rugby viewer has barely any idea where the international Super 14 teams come from, let alone their own teams.

 

[sanzar]

Originally posted by BigTen@Mar 26 2006, 09:18 PM
In brackets, next to the Blues, were the initials NZ.

Now I realise that some teams from New South Wales are also known as "Blues" and this poses a very interesting question.

Are the Waratahs fans too stupid, even after ten plus seasons, to know the name of their team or is it that the Waratahs administrators just think that their fans are too stupid to know the difference?

The Tah's get a lot of fan's who are just curious league boys, who want to see the sky blue more than 3 times a year. I know it's obvious in NZ that Blues mean auckland, but all you have is union... and that's it, whereas the sporting landscape in Australia, especially Sydney is several times more competative, so it's not a given to all the people who come to the match that "The Blues" would be from Auckland NZ. It's a bit hard to explain to a kiwi though, because you haven't been battered your entire life with media celebrating "THE MIGHTY BLUES OF NSW"...

 

[THE CHIROPRACTOR101]

its good that game...listening to the commentry and i thank them for pointing out lavea and saying 'he should get off the field'...

hopefully now everyone sees the agony im in of watching him play...everything he did effected the blues game..when mccalister got the 10 jersey everything got worse

lavea is a disease....i hope he leaves and plays in japan or up in the north where he will get a large amount of money only coz he plays in the super14...

he shouldnt be playing in auckland rugby...he does not deserve too..i have seen in auckland younger grades far better talent

you cannot blame that loss on the forwards as they got worse with the state of the backline...

lavea please leave...you suck

 

[sambãd5]

Originally posted by sanzar@Mar 26 2006, 10:59 PM
If the NPC is such a big deal, why don't more teams (or any for that matter) play to capacity crowds? I've never seen an NPC match that was more than a 3rd full in the grandstands (barring last years GF, which was more like 3/4 full... still shockingly low for a GF of such proportions I thought).

thats like saying that you find it difficult to find a reason for a international game to sell more tickets than a super 14 game. in s14, auckland as an example you have a crowd base of the auckland, north harbor, counties manakau and northland (most admitedly northlands crowd is there 15 players, and intern entire population) of course a s14 game will sell out faster than a npc. but look at a north harbor vs auckland. or bop vs waikato. southland vs otago. when the two teams are next door, they do sell well.

then you take an example which was played at nzs biggest stadium

 

[sanzar]

Originally posted by sambãd5+Mar 27 2006, 04:46 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-sanzar

@Mar 26 2006, 10:59 PM
If the NPC is such a big deal, why don't more teams (or any for that matter) play to capacity crowds? I've never seen an NPC match that was more than a 3rd full in the grandstands (barring last years GF, which was more like 3/4 full... still shockingly low for a GF of such proportions I thought).

thats like saying that you find it difficult to find a reason for a international game to sell more tickets than a super 14 game. in s14, auckland as an example you have a crowd base of the auckland, north harbor, counties manakau and northland (most admitedly northlands crowd is there 15 players, and intern entire population) of course a s14 game will sell out faster than a npc. but look at a north harbor vs auckland. or bop vs waikato. southland vs otago. when the two teams are next door, they do sell well.

then you take an example which was played at nzs biggest stadium [/b]

But it's the GF FFS!! Over here the still NRL GF managed to pull 100,000+ at the old configuration of Telstra stadium despite the fact league popularity had suffered badly in the years after the Super League war... Why? Because it was the GF!
My point is that if the NPC is as important to kiwi fans as you all say it is, then people should want to go to their GF regardless of whether their team is playing or not...

 

[Zambaman]

There's just too much rugby when you combine the Super 12/14 with the NPC. That's the main problem. It's the Super 12/14 which has caused NPC crowds to drop. Afterall, in 1985 52,000 people packed out Lancaster Park for the Canterbury - Auckland Ranfurly Shield match. You can't even fit that many people into the place these days. So if the Super 14 was gone, the NPC would bounce back strongly and you'd see the games selling out. Even now, Canterbury games against Auckland and Otago still get reasonable crowds here.

 

[Gay-Guy]

Back on topic....

Our PE teacher Mr Daniels today took about 30 kids to go visit the Blues (3 kids came from my room).

I told them to ask the Blues why they were so pathetic last Saturday...which they did (Good on ya kids :bravo: )

Mr Daniels reckons the Blues pack is really small....and that even Nick Williams is only my size.....maybe thats why they got smashed.....he reckons Mealamu is the smallest of all....a wee little man.

If Nucifora starts Lavea again next week then mayb Nucifora neds to get dumped...

 

[Dumbo]

Or knee capped, or smashed, or crucified and his children turned into drugged out... ok ok ok easy... the Blues I think with the talent that they have to be in the position that they are in is poor management and a coaching screw up... Kevi, Afoa, Woodcock, Ali, Howlett, Rokocoko, McAlister and Devine - thats 8 current and ex All Blacks.

I think it's poor management... giving Levea the benefit of the doubt shows either one of two things...

1. David Nucifora thinks that's he's the next Spencer and is and the man to rival Carter for the 10 jersey (which he won't, Spencer is playing great where he is... amongst players that wouldn't make the NZ NPC and is looking like a legend).

Or

2. He's getting pressure from the Cartel to keep McA at 2nd5 due to Henry wanting depth in that position, all we have is Mauger and a shaky Tana (who won't play another international), next in line - outside of McA on recent performances is Seilala Mapusua (and I'm not even sure if he can play for NZ).

 

[sambãd5]

Originally posted by sanzar+Mar 27 2006, 08:18 AM-->

Originally posted by sambãd5@Mar 27 2006, 04:46 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-sanzar

@Mar 26 2006, 10:59 PM
If the NPC is such a big deal, why don't more teams (or any for that matter) play to capacity crowds? I've never seen an NPC match that was more than a 3rd full in the grandstands (barring last years GF, which was more like 3/4 full... still shockingly low for a GF of such proportions I thought).

thats like saying that you find it difficult to find a reason for a international game to sell more tickets than a super 14 game. in s14, auckland as an example you have a crowd base of the auckland, north harbor, counties manakau and northland (most admitedly northlands crowd is there 15 players, and intern entire population) of course a s14 game will sell out faster than a npc. but look at a north harbor vs auckland. or bop vs waikato. southland vs otago. when the two teams are next door, they do sell well.

then you take an example which was played at nzs biggest stadium

But it's the GF FFS!! Over here the still NRL GF managed to pull 100,000+ at the old configuration of Telstra stadium despite the fact league popularity had suffered badly in the years after the Super League war... Why? Because it was the GF!
My point is that if the NPC is as important to kiwi fans as you all say it is, then people should want to go to their GF regardless of whether their team is playing or not... [/b]

ok, think of it this way. would a club game sellout telstra? i dont know how much pride and passion are in club games of league in oz, but in nz theres alot in league.

reasons for it not being a sellout? a) otago supporters = poor uni students living on the other side of the country. B) everyone knew the outcome and everyone south of the bombay hills dont want to see auckland win. ever. let alone pay to see it. so its up to auckland alone to bring in the numbers. this combined with what zambaman said, is reason enough.