Ring fencing premiership and championship

[Saintjay]

They do from time to time. I think those are limited to keep the local residents onside.

That explains why the Spurs new stadium is getting a decent amount of stuff. Outside the grounds pretty ropey and the locals don't give a toss.

The thought of Twickenham hosting Gun N Roses has the locals out with pitch forks.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

From the Guardian. Never rains etc.

 

[stus768]

From the Guardian. Never rains etc.

View attachment 16650

They're looking at Wimbledon AFC ground. Which is probably better sized but apparently needs £7m investment to be up to prem rugby standard. Having been there not sure why though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

London Irish’s failure to pay players and staff sparks questions from RFU

London Irish, more than £30m in debt and seeking investment, have cited the May bank holiday as a reason for the delay

www.theguardian.com

The RFU would need to conduct strict due diligence on any takeover after the union was skewered by MPs as part of a digital, culture, media and sport select committee hearing into the collapses of Wasps and Worcester. The investors, therefore, would have to pass the RFU's fit and proper owners' test and demonstrate proof of funds to be given the green light.

People jumping on the RFU for this situation, saying they should step in, when it's them stepping in that's caused it as it's taking longer for the Americans to take control of the club and injext funds

 

[will311293]

So what do you want them to do? How is that likely to pan out in the real world?

I'm not sure tbh with you but surely you can't be comfortable with the neglect the league has suffered? Surely if Bath were in a similar position and didn't have a significant financial backer whose happy to fuel the club, you would want them to do more than acknowledge it at a inquest and say we will do better. I concede Wasps was of their own making to an extent, but Wuss were let down.

Every club virtually in the league is financially struggling and i fear that when Sir Nigel Boardman does his review it won't look pretty. Irish are struggling, Newcastle are downscaling and have always rumoured to be in trouble, Quins are supposedly at £50m debt and without additional investment (Tigers) and selling assets (Exeter), both would be in trouble.

Maybe some form of constructive plan on how they (Premiership Rugby) get out of the hole they are in with CVC, maybe them to acknowledge the mismanagement of English Premiership. Premiership Rugby is financially unsound and it feels like lots of inquests but no ones actually doing anything.

I know i'm just vocalising and not offering any solution but i can tell you that not having a club in the premiership, not having a club at all, one that you have watched for over 20 years really sucks and i'd hate anyone else to suffer it.

 

[will311293]

London Irish’s failure to pay players and staff sparks questions from RFU

London Irish, more than £30m in debt and seeking investment, have cited the May bank holiday as a reason for the delay

www.theguardian.com

People jumping on the RFU for this situation, saying they should step in, when it's them stepping in that's caused it as it's taking longer for the Americans to take control of the club and injext funds

Same issues as for Wuss, sold to the wrong group and scrutinised their finances, when if they had better standards in place, Wuss may have not been in that position in the first place.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Same issues as for Wuss, sold to the wrong group and scrutinised their finances, when if they had better standards in place, Wuss may have not been in that position in the first place.

These are new checks they brought in since the Wuss/Wasps debacles though

 

[will311293]

These are new checks they brought in since the Wuss/Wasps debacles though

True... but I really don't think it will make any difference and only solves new owners coming in. Ongoing financial management is a constant challenge and although i think clubs are working hard to build their finances and crowds, Massie-Taylor and Co, need to figure out a way to get the league out there but also someone get out of the CVC deal which is a crippling problem.

 

[Which Tyler]

I've been following this sport for 40-odd years, I've seen several clubs go bust, and it's always sad.
It's also, always the club's fault ("the club" in this case meaning the senior management).

The RFU are contractually obliged not to do anything if a club is struggling. To do so would mean breaking their contract with all the other clubs, and they'd get sued into oblivion; so that's a non-starter. Until recently, their oversight of potential new owners was to essentially rubber-stamp a lack of conflict of interests (so one person / group not owning multiple clubs, and being told that they have some money [with no powers to check or enforce the latter]). I believe those powers have been bumped up as a result of the fallout from Wasps/Wuss - and now we're complaining that they're using those powers. It's almost like they can't win.

I fully understand, and accept the need to vent; but I always prefer constructive to destructive. There's little to be gained by saying "something must be done" in an absence of things that can be done, or acknowledgement of what can't be done.

IMO the RFU f***ed up in 1996 when the game turned professional, and they sat back and watched, whilst the clubs sold themselves to millionaire owners and demanded an absence of oversight. That's a rant that's well worth having, but the genie is out of the bottle now, and we have to work from where we are.

Rant away, feel free to vent - I certainly have, for Bath when it was suggested we merge with Bristol under Malcolm Pierce, and when Brownsword sold to Craig (and when Criag went and brought in unethical-but-legal business practices), and when Mike Ford was appointed as coach, and again as HC. But acknowledge who's hands it's in, who can do what to prevent anything, and I try not to blame those who aren't responsible.
"Something must be done" - okay, but please expand on what should be done.
"That person there should do something" - I'll continuie to ask why that person, and what that person is capable of doing.

 

[will311293]

I've been following this sport for 40-odd years, I've seen several clubs go bust, and it's always sad.
It's also, always the club's fault ("the club" in this case meaning the senior management).

The RFU are contractually obliged not to do anything if a club is struggling. To do so would mean breaking their contract with all the other clubs, and they'd get sued into oblivion; so that's a non-starter. Until recently, their oversight of potential new owners was to essentially rubber-stamp a lack of conflict of interests (so one person / group not owning multiple clubs, and being told that they have some money [with no powers to check or enforce the latter]). I believe those powers have been bumped up as a result of the fallout from Wasps/Wuss - and now we're complaining that they're using those powers. It's almost like they can't win.

I fully understand, and accept the need to vent; but I always prefer constructive to destructive. There's little to be gained by saying "something must be done" in an absence of things that can be done, or acknowledgement of what can't be done.

IMO the RFU f***ed up in 1996 when the game turned professional, and they sat back and watched, whilst the clubs sold themselves to millionaire owners and demanded an absence of oversight. That's a rant that's well worth having, but the genie is out of the bottle now, and we have to work from where we are.

Rant away, feel free to vent - I certainly have, for Bath when it was suggested we merge with Bristol under Malcolm Pierce, and when Brownsword sold to Craig (and when Criag went and brought in unethical-but-legal business practices), and when Mike Ford was appointed as coach, and again as HC. But acknowledge who's hands it's in, who can do what to prevent anything, and I try not to blame those who aren't responsible.
"Something must be done" - okay, but please expand on what should be done.
"That person there should do something" - I'll continuie to ask why that person, and what that person is capable of doing.

True and apologies, tone was wrong on my part. Hugely frustrated but not fair to unload so i apologise.

I'm just at a lose, I don't believe we are going to recover, i know there are lots of people working incredibly hard and fast to resolve but it looks incredibly likely we won't make our deadlines.

I agree that we are maybe double standarding them but the years of mismanagement as you suggested have led the league down the garden path.
I just have no idea what the fix is and who on earth has the ability to fix it.

 

[Which Tyler]

No, no - feel free to rant and vent, and in doing so, an abrasive tone is absolutely fine.

I just have my own ways, and my own issues, and will pick up on such things - I'd have taken no offence at all if you'd simply ignored my questioning, and I'd have worked out eventually that you were venting, rather than trying to find solutions.
I can do listening, but my first instinct is always to fix - and that's on me (and yes, my wife hates that about me).

 

[Saintjay]

I always said i would die on the hill of not having English regions. As a Saints fan I'd rather wash my eyes out with bleach than merge with the other East Mids clubs.

However taking a breath i look at the IRFU and Leinster etc and think would this have happened in Ireland given the system now. I look at the community game, pro club attendance across the globe and it appears rugby is dying on it's knees.

In reality the fault lies with Prem rugby, and the owners of the clubs.

 

[Reiser99]

I always said i would die on the hill of not having English regions. As a Saints fan I'd rather wash my eyes out with bleach than merge with the other East Mids clubs.

However taking a breath i look at the IRFU and Leinster etc and think would this have happened in Ireland given the system now. I look at the community game, pro club attendance across the globe and it appears rugby is dying on it's knees.

In reality the fault lies with Prem rugby, and the owners of the clubs.

I was too young when rugby went professional to know what was discussed and proposed at the time etc... but I imagine they looked at football and thought we'll have some of that and expected the game to just grow from there. Reality is, it hasn't happened and we've got increasing wage bills and costs from a sport that is probably losing fans rather than gaining them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I always said i would die on the hill of not having English regions. As a Saints fan I'd rather wash my eyes out with bleach than merge with the other East Mids clubs.

However taking a breath i look at the IRFU and Leinster etc and think would this have happened in Ireland given the system now. I look at the community game, pro club attendance across the globe and it appears rugby is dying on it's knees.

In reality the fault lies with Prem rugby, and the owners of the clubs.

Yeah, our (and Wales) issue is that Ireland's regions were already well established before the made pro sides for them
We don't have anything like that here, outside of counties which would be too small/numerous, and like you said: mushing together sides into arbitrary regions now is never going to work. Saints and Tigers aren't going to support each other, Bath and Bristol aren't going to etc.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

London Irish: Players and staff yet to receive April wages

London Irish players and staff are yet to receive their April wages amid concern about the Premiership club's financial future.

www.bbc.co.uk

Are they at risk of being suspended for this weekend, if they don't sharpen up quickly?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Why bother playing anyhow as its a dead rubber game.

Between the premiership rugby and the rfu, rugby has been on a downward spiral in England for a few years now. Both parties seem to be doing everything wrong and the fans pay the price again.

I will if bill sweeny has deliberately ran the RFU into debt so they have to sell shares to CVC and then he'll got a handshake massive pay out.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

London Irish: Players and staff yet to receive April wages

London Irish players and staff are yet to receive their April wages amid concern about the Premiership club's financial future.

www.bbc.co.uk

Are they at risk of being suspended for this weekend, if they don't sharpen up quickly?

Hmmm. Sounds depressingly familiar.

Yeah, our (and Wales) issue is that Ireland's regions were already well established before the made pro sides for them
We don't have anything like that here, outside of counties which would be too small/numerous, and like you said: mushing together sides into arbitrary regions now is never going to work. Saints and Tigers aren't going to support each other, Bath and Bristol aren't going to etc.

Well in the current situation our clubs aren't financially viable, they're off the pace in Europe and nor do they work hand in glove in the interests of the national team. Little of which bears any relation to the number or calibre of players. Something has to change.

Back in the day there were divisions that were a step up on the representative ladder, had their own championship and would play against the touring international sides.

We can't go back to that, but half of me reluctantly thinks that the money and effort should go into 4 new elite well funded regions which would compete in (yuk) a ringfenced British league and Europe and from where the national team would be drawn. This wouldn't mean the demise of the clubs as we know them, just that they wouldn't be the very elite tier. They could perhaps be semi pro (or fully pro at own risk) and compete in a league structure with promotion / relegation and even a domestic knock out cup for the top 2 divisions where first teams are fielded. A lot of people prefer the traditional domestic rivalries to the cross border stuff.

Some will point to France as a counter argument, but the reality is that the RWC has concentrated minds and that culturally rugby is more embedded in more places than here. Civic pride comes into play and towns can stop if there's a home game.

The other half of me looks at Wales and just wishes the whole flipping shooting match had stayed amateur.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Still no payments

 

[RedruthRFC]

Back in the day there were divisions that were a step up on the representative ladder, had their own championship and would play against the touring international sides.

Apros pos of nothing, how long were they a thing for? They were in place by the time I started taking an interest in rugby, but my impression is that they were only introduced when league rugby led to the county game being marginalised.

Some will point to France as a counter argument, but the reality is that the RWC has concentrated minds and that culturally rugby is more embedded in more places than here. Civic pride comes into play and towns can stop if there's a home game.

This is something I've been wrestling with lately and struggled to clarify in my head or be able to express clearly. French clubs seem to have stronger links to their local community and benefit from everything that goes with it - good attendances, good sponsorship opportunities (e.g. Toulouse and Peaugot, Clermont and Michelin) and access to municipal stadia.

TBH, the majority of Championship clubs and their supporters seem to have a pretty entitled attitude and think that they should be treated like the ProD2, while ignoring the fact that healthy crowds make the spectacle marketable to TV companies. Three men and a dog watching a game on (in Ampthill's case) a field owned by the National Trust doesn't hold the same appeal. The majority of Championship clubs are either based somewhere too small to attract decent crowds (e.g. Caldy, Ampthill, Hartpury) or somewhere with little rugby tradition or in the case of the London clubs, have too much competition for spectators. Bedford, Coventry and Jersey have strong community ties and in Bedford and Coventry's case are in traditional rugby towns, I don't think it's a coincidence that they're three of the top four in the league and without Mike Gooley's money at Ealing would be the top 3.

Possibly the biggest limiting factor for The Championship is the lack of facilities. Not only does it render most / all clubs unable to meet the MSC, but it limits the sort of matchday experience they've able to provide and their ability to integrate with the local community. The Cornish Pirates are 20 miles down the road from me and are a case in point. For close to 20 years, they've been trying to get someone to build them a "Stadium For Cornwall" without success, so have regressed to being a Penzance based team, with little engagement outside West Cornwall. Every once in a while, I hear stories of their major benefactor cutting funding and believe that it's only a matter of time before the money does dry up. The sad reality is that if I'm right, within a few years, all they will have to show for years of effort and millions of pounds spent is a couple of runners-up trophies and B&I Cup. They've provided plenty of happy memories, but I can't help thinking that it would be worth trading some of those memories for a legacy that diverting some of the cash into capital investment would have left.

 

[Saintjay]