Ring fencing premiership and championship

[Amiga500]

I always said i would die on the hill of not having English regions. As a Saints fan I'd rather wash my eyes out with bleach than merge with the other East Mids clubs.

However taking a breath i look at the IRFU and Leinster etc and think would this have happened in Ireland given the system now. I look at the community game, pro club attendance across the globe and it appears rugby is dying on it's knees.

In reality the fault lies with Prem rugby, and the owners of the clubs.

Your overcomplicating it IMO.

You don't need regions, you just need the RFU to own enough clubs to play in a league above the existing league structures with no relegation.

The clubs would come from existing clubs and ideally be those with the biggest crowds.

So your looking at:

Quins
Leicester
Bristol
Bath
Gloucester
Northampton
Exeter
Saracens


Are Sale big enough? Are London Irish big enough? Are Newcastle big enough? Avg attendances would suggest a severe financial assessment needs made. Although against that, they are either in cities of their own (Sale/Newcastle) or are sharing one of the the biggest population centres in Europe (London Irish).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are Sale big enough?

Considering how many players, and coaches, the north contributes to England (and Wales, Ireland, and Scotland) killing the whole region off would be a blow,
Think we're on track for our 5th sell out of the season this weekend (semi-final already sold out so that'll be 6) - obv not on the level of Tigers etc. who sell out most weekends, but we're moving in the right direction

 

[Saintjay]

Your overcomplicating it IMO.

You don't need regions, you just need the RFU to own enough clubs to play in a league above the existing league structures with no relegation.

The clubs would come from existing clubs and ideally be those with the biggest crowds.

So your looking at:

Quins
Leicester
Bristol
Bath
Gloucester
Northampton
Exeter
Saracens


Are Sale big enough? Are London Irish big enough? Are Newcastle big enough? Avg attendances would suggest a severe financial assessment needs made. Although against that, they are either in cities of their own (Sale/Newcastle) or are sharing one of the the biggest population centres in Europe (London Irish).

It's difficult based on attendances because what do Saracens average 8000ish. Clubs like Saints and Exeter are already having to make additional friendly fixtures up due to the loss in match day revenue. Saints attendances are pretty decent by prem levels and as far as i know they are one of the more financialy stable clubs. Yet the loss of income is hitting them pretty hard.

I don't even know if the RFU would even have the money or what the legality would be in buying out clubs tbh.

 

[Saintjay]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Another owner talking about the 10 man league

Sale owner says clubs must put in £300m just to keep the game alive

EXCLUSIVE BY NIK SIMON: Sale have invested heavily to drive up attendances at the AJ Bell Stadium but Orange acknowledges there is still a huge amount to do.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[will311293]

Sadly prem rugby is doomed... no way are clubs finding £300m between them to keep prem going. Finances are in a dire state and unless clubs find a sugar daddy or have significant backing from a strong fanbase which constantly gets 25k plus in i don't know how they survive.

Ticket prices keep rising, along with costs of going to game day (travel, parking, food, drink etc) and unless clubs take the hit (such as Sale did for Semi Final to get bumper crowd), I can't see things improving.

We really are in a complete mess.

 

[higgik]

Sadly prem rugby is doomed... no way are clubs finding £300m between them to keep prem going. Finances are in a dire state and unless clubs find a sugar daddy or have significant backing from a strong fanbase which constantly gets 25k plus in i don't know how they survive.

Ticket prices keep rising, along with costs of going to game day (travel, parking, food, drink etc) and unless clubs take the hit (such as Sale did for Semi Final to get bumper crowd), I can't see things improving.

We really are in a complete mess.

There is a way.
Franchises
RFU and CVC set up a new competition similar to IPL cricket, whre businesses bid for a franchise, then an auction of players at the beginning, hard salary cap and then a draft of new talent every year.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There is a way.
Franchises
RFU and CVC set up a new competition similar to IPL cricket, whre businesses bid for a franchise, then an auction of players at the beginning, hard salary cap and then a draft of new talent every year.

Do you think that will bring in the required support?

Wales is already a pretty decent case study in what happens when you remove all local-ness from sides and make them into soulless franchises (but even then they were able to keep local players and it not be a draft system)

 

[Reiser99]

Do you think that will bring in the required support?

Wales is already a pretty decent case study in what happens when you remove all local-ness from sides and make them into soulless franchises (but even then they were able to keep local players and it not be a draft system)

Yeah agree. The issue is attendance. Clubs very rarely sellout.

Looking at average attendances just for the premiership (from wikipedia), the average attendance hasn't really changed in a decade. It was around 12,000 ten years ago and that's where it is now. There was a brief high of 15,000 in the middle and a couple of years of 14,000, but otherwise pretty consistent. This shows that the game at club level has not grown at all really. You then add on higher costs, no wonder clubs are losing money.

Realistically clubs need to grow a more consistent and dedicated fan base. Issue is that's pretty hard to do.

 

[higgik]

Yeah agree. The issue is attendance. Clubs very rarely sellout.

Looking at average attendances just for the premiership (from wikipedia), the average attendance hasn't really changed in a decade. It was around 12,000 ten years ago and that's where it is now. There was a brief high of 15,000 in the middle and a couple of years of 14,000, but otherwise pretty consistent. This shows that the game at club level has not grown at all really. You then add on higher costs, no wonder clubs are losing money.

Realistically clubs need to grow a more consistent and dedicated fan base. Issue is that's pretty hard to do.

Maybe a better structure to the calendar so a narrative is created.
Swapping between Europe and domestic is difficult for a casual fan to understand, especially when often same clubs play in different competitions.
Add the fact that club matches do not always have best players playing as they are playing for country.

 

[Reiser99]

Maybe a better structure to the calendar so a narrative is created.
Swapping between Europe and domestic is difficult for a casual fan to understand, especially when often same clubs play in different competitions.
Add the fact that club matches do not always have best players playing as they are playing for country.

I don't see why people can't understand domestic games and european games, even as a casual fan. The concept is pretty simple and works fine in football. Maybe they'll have less understanding of who are the best european teams, but that's not a major drawback. The big issue you've pointed to is playing club games on international days. It robs clubs of their best players and while a good opportunity for younger players, it does take away from the spectacle. That's why a 10 team league with reduced fixtures can then maybe rest players during international breaks and with the new premiership cup, still develop younger players.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't see why people can't understand domestic games and european games, even as a casual fan. The concept is pretty simple and works fine in football. Maybe they'll have less understanding of who are the best european teams, but that's not a major drawback. The big issue you've pointed to is playing club games on international days. It robs clubs of their best players and while a good opportunity for younger players, it does take away from the spectacle. That's why a 10 team league with reduced fixtures can then maybe rest players during international breaks and with the new premiership cup, still develop younger players.

I think the point may have been more around not understanding why the season is so disjointed - flitting around between competitions means a loss of momentum / interest. At one point this season Tigers went:

Prem
Prem Cup
Prem Cup
Prem
Champions Cup
Champions Cup
Prem
Prem
Prem
Champions Cup
Champions Cup

We play fewer matches, with no midweek games, than football so this loss of flow will seem more pronounced.

 

[stus768]

https://archive.is/Ysl4c

Telegraph saying top 3 Champ cups have requested to join the Challenge Cup. Ealing, Jersey and Cov, decent idea imo.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

https://archive.is/Ysl4c

Telegraph saying top 3 Champ cups have requested to join the Challenge Cup. Ealing, Jersey and Cov, decent idea imo.

I think they'd get absolutely spanked though. When I've seen cov and jersey (not seen Ealing) they were well below premiership standard.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think they'd get absolutely spanked though. When I've seen cov and jersey (not seen Ealing) they were well below premiership standard.

True, but it's better than SA bullying their way in like they did with Cheetahs - Challenge cup always used to have 2nd tier sides in (or 3rd, 4th, depending how you view the Spanish/Italian/Russian leagues)
I'd like to see a return to that

 

[Which Tyler]

True, but it's better than SA bullying their way in like they did with Cheetahs - Challenge cup always used to have 2nd tier sides in (or 3rd, 4th, depending how you view the Spanish/Italian/Russian leagues)
I'd like to see a return to that

Not to mention that there always used to be a 3rd tier below that; which really should have had a few Champ clubs that felt they could afford the travel.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Give the places to the european super league teams
Black Lions from Georgia
Lusitanos from Portugual
Castilla y León Iberians from Spain
Whilst in terms of results the Tel Aviv Heat should be up I don't like how their team is 90% players from outside Israel.

 

[Which Tyler]

Or both, and reinstate the 3rd tier

 

[higgik]

Do you think that will bring in the required support?

Wales is already a pretty decent case study in what happens when you remove all local-ness from sides and make them into soulless franchises (but even then they were able to keep local players and it not be a draft system)

If the clubs could buy the franchise then yes, effectively there would be the same clubs.
They would benefit from the money from RFU, buying contracts.
They would be limited to numbers of players on squad

 

[higgik]

I think the point may have been more around not understanding why the season is so disjointed - flitting around between competitions means a loss of momentum / interest. At one point this season Tigers went:

Prem
Prem Cup
Prem Cup
Prem
Champions Cup
Champions Cup
Prem
Prem
Prem
Champions Cup
Champions Cup

We play fewer matches, with no midweek games, than football so this loss of flow will seem more pronounced.

Exactly my point.
Also this may be fine for regular fans, but if we are trying to grow support, new fans needs to have something simple to follow.