RaboDirect Pro12: Round 11/12

[lucky number 7]

No till next season lad

Cullens been no great shakes this season so far imo, he's only added to Leinster's lack of depth in the second row.

Aye Cullen has been mediocre ..But I feel nonetheless he's solid enough with the talent all over the rest of the park compensating greatly

 

[Peat]

Two things apparent from this match....aside from Clancy who for him has not been bad tonight but agree strange a Munster man reffing a South v North Irish clash........Leinster do not have the depth of talent needed for a top team and Healy's obliteration at scrum time and early bath probably spells the end of his Lions chances.................

C'mon, that's just sloppy thinking - a single bad game doesn't mean jack a few months down the line, most props get pulled after 55 minutes or so now, and he shouldn't be blamed wholesale for the failure of the scrum when he had a beanpole behind him and Afoa had a giant lump pushing him.

I disagree with this .. 3 European Championships in 4 years suggests otherwise.

And the shadow backline that was put out tonight does not do us justice.

However I do believe we're not even close to the team we were at the end of last year at the moment.
Clermont can walk this cup if nobody rises to the challenge.

I get the sneaking feeling Leinster will come good though.

Past results do not indicate future performances - this ain't the same team, and I think depth is a part of that.

edit: Whoo-hoo!

Less of this talking about Leinster, more Ulster are Brill.

 

[BZHopenside]

I'm really glad Scarlets won. It makes me less annoyed that I spent 80 min watching rugby tennis rather than the Ulster-Leinster game.

 

[lucky number 7]

Less of this talking about Leinster, more Ulster are Brill.

I wholeheartedly agree

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I agree LN7 but I'm talking currently - and they haven't really backed that up this season.

 

[Tony Manx]

Clancys refereeing was disgraceful - even the commentators admitted it. Best shouldn't have been carded, he had his hands up and his legs were trapped, besides the ball wasn't even coming back for them - .

Ulster commentators complaining about a southern Irish ref sending off an Ulster player.....shock horror!!!

Best lay there with his hands out and made absolutely no effort to roll away. I agree his legs were under another player but he made no effort and knew exactly what he was doing!!

Incidentally these very same commentators criticised Clancey vehemently over an earlier call and then watched the play back and said maybe he actually had a very valid point..............if you read my postings about this man, you will appreciate I rate him lower than most of the French refs but..............

if Leinster had the strength in depth...how come they lost? Because the players out there were not good enough!! They pick poor players for the hell of it or because they had no one else other than those that needed a rest after two almighty games against ASM?

The only way Healy will play for the Lions maybe because the Aussies do not have a decent prop to put against him but he was not good tonight!! He is one of the finest props around the field but his scrummaging remains a doubt...............

Lucky Number 7......A full Leinster team would be.

I think you are right (and why I rated them to win the present H Cup competition in May 2012) and they could beat MOST teams on the planet....my point is that they cannot win that many games when they lose some of their better players as they do nothave the depth!!

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

You must have been watching a different game Tony, Best was making an effort to move but that's difficult when 2 16-18 stone players are on you. Penalty, fair enough, not a card.
As for the commentators, they're usually pretty harsh on Ulster and not that biased. Never hesitate to praise the opposing team. They replayed a lot of incidents which were so obviously the wrong call.
Michael bent dropping the arm for example early in the second half in the scrum and Jackson taken out in the air.
32nd minute penalty was completely wrong also to name a few.

 

[big ginger 8]

Ulster commentators complaining about a southern Irish ref sending off an Ulster player.....shock horror!!!

Best lay there with his hands out and made absolutely no effort to roll away. I agree his legs were under another player but he made no effort and knew exactly what he was doing!!

Incidentally these very same commentators criticised Clancey vehemently over an earlier call and then watched the play back and said maybe he actually had a very valid point..............if you read my postings about this man, you will appreciate I rate him lower than most of the French refs but..............

if Leinster had the strength in depth...how come they lost? Because the players out there were not good enough!! They pick poor players for the hell of it or because they had no one else other than those that needed a rest after two almighty games against ASM?

The only way Healy will play for the Lions maybe because the Aussies do not have a decent prop to put against him but he was not good tonight!! He is one of the finest props around the field but his scrummaging remains a doubt...............

Lucky Number 7......A full Leinster team would be.

I think you are right (and why I rated them to win the present H Cup competition in May 2012) and they could beat MOST teams on the planet....my point is that they cannot win that many games when they lose some of their better players as they do nothave the depth!!

When your cover gets injured it can be fairly hard. Not as if Ulster are a bad team either and didn't play a strong side. Also Ravenhill is not an easy place to go.

Your logic about Healy is ridiculous he had a poor game for once against one of the best scrummagers in Europe wow. He has shown on numerous occasions now that he's more than capable at scrum time.

 

[Peat]

When your cover gets injured it can be fairly hard. Not as if Ulster are a bad team either and didn't play a strong side. Also Ravenhill is not an easy place to go.

Your logic about Healy is ridiculous he had a poor game for once against one of the best scrummagers in Europe wow. He has shown on numerous occasions now that he's more than capable at scrum time.

A scrummager who he's done before let us add. A scrummager who today possessed a distinct head-start in terms of support from his lock and hooker. I absolutely do not get how anyone can take anything significant or lasting from this single night with all the factors taken into account. Don't rate Healy, ok, fair enough, not that I agree, but this idea he's suddenly not a Lions candidate because he got done by one of the most destructive scrums this side of the channel at Ravenhill with those second rows is ludicrous.

No offence Tony, but you'd be forgiven for thinking Leinster were playing Zebre at home, rather than the form team in Europe away, on reading your post. Which credits neither team.

edit:

Leinster's depth - in fairness, it's being really tested now. Last year, they were wheeling out players like Ryan, O'Malley, Kearney jr when they had to bring in reserves. None of those involved. Their backline in particular has been hammered. Ironically it was their pack that got beat there despite looking very strong - Mick McCarthy can't come soon enough, the second row is simply not good enough, don't think their needs end there.

As for Ulster... front row magnificent, Henderson did a great job of running the lineout - he's not a lock right now, and maybe never will be, but I've seen far worse cover, him and McComb put a hell of a lot of weight around. Nick Williams, back at 8, looks better - coincidence, I don't think so. Diack looks like he's come good and Henry, just great, always is. Pienaar class, Jackson made a few too many mistakes but he'll learn, young Skywalker did well though. And nice to see Adam D'Arcy back.

 

[irelandfan123]

Its scary when Ulster fans have enough fire power to try and argue with leinster, scared by a power shift! lol
Great game from the lads, Diack having an absolute blinder along with Pienaar class but Jackson... oh dear Madigan really had the jump on him tonight but I'll put it down to nerves from the last time he played then although his form has began to drop as of late

 

[j'nuh]

C'mon, that's just sloppy thinking - a single bad game doesn't mean jack a few months down the line, most props get pulled after 55 minutes or so now, and he shouldn't be blamed wholesale for the failure of the scrum when he had a beanpole behind him and Afoa had a giant lump pushing him.

It's these games against the top scrummaging clubs that he'll be (rightfully) judged upon. You're up against the best at international level, so it's only realistic to judge him against the top scrummagers at club level. And games like these speak a lot more about his ability than when he's pushing around weaker scrums. One game might not tell us all too much, but it's enough to reignite the debate as to whether he is a decent scrummager. Has he really improved by a lot as much as people claim, or has he just simply not been tested at club level up until now?

The thing is that a lot of people talk about Healy, Best, Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip all as Lions and match day potentials. That's 5/8 of the pack and 2/3 of the front row that was so utterly demolished in the scrum against England last year. And this is the pack we should be basing the Lions on? I'm skeptical, but willing to wait to see how they fare in this Six Nations.

There's a lot of competition at loosehead, so I'm reserved about picking Healy at the minute. (Although willing to admit that if he makes it obvious that he can scrummage against the best, then he probably deserves to go.)

 

[coonor]

It's these games against the top scrummaging clubs that he'll be (rightfully) judged upon. You're up against the best at international level, so it's only realistic to judge him against the top scrummagers at club level. And games like these speak a lot more about his ability than when he's pushing around weaker scrums. One game might not tell us all too much, but it's enough to reignite the debate as to whether he is a decent scrummager. Has he really improved by a lot as much as people claim, or has he just simply not been tested at club level up until now?

The thing is that a lot of people talk about Healy, Best, Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip all as Lions and match day potentials. That's 5/8 of the pack and 2/3 of the front row that was so utterly demolished in the scrum against England last year. And this is the pack we should be basing the Lions on? I'm skeptical, but willing to wait to see how they fare in this Six Nations.

There's a lot of competition at loosehead, so I'm reserved about picking Healy at the minute. (Although willing to admit that if he makes it obvious that he can scrummage against the best, then he probably deserves to go.)

Kind of similar to how Dan Cole was completely dominated by the Australian front row..... But he bounced back to the level of performance that we expect.

Healy has been very good this year, but today he just got it wrong.

 

[Tony Manx]

It's these games against the top scrummaging clubs that he'll be (rightfully) judged upon. You're up against the best at international level, so it's only realistic to judge him against the top scrummagers at club level. And games like these speak a lot more about his ability than when he's pushing around weaker scrums. One game might not tell us all too much, but it's enough to reignite the debate as to whether he is a decent scrummager. Has he really improved by a lot as much as people claim, or has he just simply not been tested at club level up until now?

The thing is that a lot of people talk about Healy, Best, Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip all as Lions and match day potentials. That's 5/8 of the pack and 2/3 of the front row that was so utterly demolished in the scrum against England last year. And this is the pack we should be basing the Lions on? I'm skeptical, but willing to wait to see how they fare in this Six Nations.

There's a lot of competition at loosehead, so I'm reserved about picking Healy at the minute. (Although willing to admit that if he makes it obvious that he can scrummage against the best, then he probably deserves to go.)

Thank you..........a sensible comment in a way perhaps I should have put it but there you go!

I would be more than delighted if Healey just had a bad night and bounced back to am International level because the more competition the better to make the Lions the strongest team possible, which is what we all want really!

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

It's these games against the top scrummaging clubs that he'll be (rightfully) judged upon. You're up against the best at international level, so it's only realistic to judge him against the top scrummagers at club level. And games like these speak a lot more about his ability than when he's pushing around weaker scrums. One game might not tell us all too much, but it's enough to reignite the debate as to whether he is a decent scrummager. Has he really improved by a lot as much as people claim, or has he just simply not been tested at club level up until now?

The thing is that a lot of people talk about Healy, Best, Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip all as Lions and match day potentials. That's 5/8 of the pack and 2/3 of the front row that was so utterly demolished in the scrum against England last year. And this is the pack we should be basing the Lions on? I'm skeptical, but willing to wait to see how they fare in this Six Nations.

There's a lot of competition at loosehead, so I'm reserved about picking Healy at the minute. (Although willing to admit that if he makes it obvious that he can scrummage against the best, then he probably deserves to go.)

In **** conditions, no O'Connell, and an average loose head in Court playing in the tight head position? Of course you're going to get destroyed - that isn't Healys fault. Heck, Italy would have got that many penalties in the scrum.
I love how you're all waiting to jump on one bad game Healy has had - how about against Australia in the WC? I didn't hear anyone complaining about his scrum then..

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In **** conditions, no O'Connell, and an average loose head in Court playing in the tight head position? Of course you're going to get destroyed - that isn't Healys fault. Heck, Italy would have got that many penalties in the scrum.
I love how you're all waiting to jump on one bad game Healy has had - how about against Australia in the WC? I didn't hear anyone complaining about his scrum then..

That'd be why, then

I like Healy, though, and he'd be my choice for Lions #1 at the moment with Jenkins out of form.

 

[Amiga500]

In **** conditions, no O'Connell, and an average loose head in Court playing in the tight head position? Of course you're going to get destroyed - that isn't Healys fault. Heck, Italy would have got that many penalties in the scrum.
I love how you're all waiting to jump on one bad game Healy has had - how about against Australia in the WC? I didn't hear anyone complaining about his scrum then..

How about his performance against England in Lansdowne the year before last?

Took on and beat the English scrum that day as I recall...

 

[big ginger 8]

And done pretty damn well against France, S.A., Clermont, Tolouse etc. for the last two years. A decent number of people decide he can't scrummage based on him in the early part of his career which is quite harsh as props generally get better at scrummaging with experience and on a stereotype that seems to decide if a prop is good in the loose they can't be good in the scrum.

 

[Peat]

It's these games against the top scrummaging clubs that he'll be (rightfully) judged upon. You're up against the best at international level, so it's only realistic to judge him against the top scrummagers at club level. And games like these speak a lot more about his ability than when he's pushing around weaker scrums. One game might not tell us all too much, but it's enough to reignite the debate as to whether he is a decent scrummager. Has he really improved by a lot as much as people claim, or has he just simply not been tested at club level up until now?

The thing is that a lot of people talk about Healy, Best, Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip all as Lions and match day potentials. That's 5/8 of the pack and 2/3 of the front row that was so utterly demolished in the scrum against England last year. And this is the pack we should be basing the Lions on? I'm skeptical, but willing to wait to see how they fare in this Six Nations.

There's a lot of competition at loosehead, so I'm reserved about picking Healy at the minute. (Although willing to admit that if he makes it obvious that he can scrummage against the best, then he probably deserves to go.)

Well I hope no one wants any of Cole, Marler, Parling or Robshaw to go, as they were all in a scrum that got dicked by Australia. Cole didn't look too hot in Lansdowne the year before actually. Two bad performances? Bring out the gullotine. I would say send the entire Welsh pack, but I'm fairly sure I saw their scrum disintegrate this autumn too...

One weak link is enough to destabilize a scrum; a weak scrum frequently destabilize's the entire pack. The presence of first an injured Ross, then Court, at tighthead, was always likely to turn the Irish scrum to crap. Nobody should be bringing it up, as everyone should understand why it happened.

Healy's turned in plenty of solid scrummaging performances against the best. Just most English people haven't seen them, as why would they tune into Leinster vs Clermont? Just a bit of logical thought though would suggest they wouldn't be European champions twice in a row, given the teams they've had to beat, if Healy couldn't scrummage.


p.s. Ulsterrugby2012, lots of people call Court an average loosehead... funny how with an average loosehead and a guy the ABs reckon was a poor scrummager we're doing over everyone.

 

[psychic duck]

Well I hope no one wants any of Cole, Marler, Parling or Robshaw to go, as they were all in a scrum that got dicked by Australia. Cole didn't look too hot in Lansdowne the year before actually. Two bad performances? Bring out the gullotine. I would say send the entire Welsh pack, but I'm fairly sure I saw their scrum disintegrate this autumn too...

That was because we were missing Adam Jones of course.

Healy's turned in plenty of solid scrummaging performances against the best. Just most English people haven't seen them, as why would they tune into Leinster vs Clermont? Just a bit of logical thought though would suggest they wouldn't be European champions twice in a row, given the teams they've had to beat, if Healy couldn't scrummage.

That happened just because Clermont selected Vincent Debaty who is their own weaker scrummaging but ball carrying prop. They sorted that out for the second match, and in Bordeaux earlier this year they had the upper hand.

Healy has improved with Mike Ross helping him out a lot more than Buckley previous, and is probably one of the form international props of the year to be honest, looks very likely to go on the Lions tour, although I don't think he is the top loosehead in Europe.

 

[Peat]

That was because we were missing Adam Jones of course.

No forgiveness for group performances dragged down by personnel failures in one part of the unit seems to be the mood of the day I'm afraid. To the gallows they must go. But, yeah, ok. Adam Jones can play for the Lions - god knows where we're gonna find the other guys though.

That happened just because Clermont selected Vincent Debaty who is their own weaker scrummaging but ball carrying prop. They sorted that out for the second match, and in Bordeaux earlier this year they had the upper hand.

Healy has improved with Mike Ross helping him out a lot more than Buckley previous, and is probably one of the form international props of the year to be honest, looks very likely to go on the Lions tour, although I don't think he is the top loosehead in Europe.

Upper hand or disintegration? I recall an upper hand - no shame in that, given who and where - but that they held their **** together enough to do the job i.e. win the match.

I have no issue with your opinion and would agree he's not the top loosehead in Europe. I'd even say I'm not convinced he's the top loosehead from these Isles, the more pertinent question to a Lions tour. But he's almost definitely going to go and has earned it with his performances - which include the scrum.