Queen Elizabeth II

[Welsh Exile]

Watched the funeral up to QEII heading off in the hearse

some may struggle to understand why...but based on the numbers (i heard over a million) who made the journey to be there, and thousands more from in parks around the country or millions watching from home, its hard to argue it wasn't a momentous event

What's your views on choosing to have a foreigner as head of state? Maybe we could insert our PM into your government and make her your PM as well or would that be going to far? I could only imagine what the Tories over here would say if our head of state was Jamaican or something. Lol. I guess a lot of the white defendants of colonists still like having that association with the motherland. Can't imagine Māori people are the same though understandably. Shame. You're your own country and have been for a long time.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Death penalty? more than likely, slavery? Maybe, empire?

Who tf are you talking too hahaha

Please show me polls?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Who tf are you talking too hahaha

Please show me polls?

I'm talking to you my dude. It's why I quoted your post. It's how it works.

Sure, I'll dig out that you gov poll on resinstating the empire.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Here's some on the death penalty though.

Death Penalty polls & surveys | YouGov

Explore the latest YouGov polling, survey results and articles about Death Penalty.

yougov.co.uk

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i think most people are actually very good at differentiating between an individual (in this case the Queen) or even the current inclination of an institution or idea from what it might've been in the past

The Monarchy now isn't what it was 200 years ago...hell, in a lot of unofficial ways its not what it was 20 years ago

In my experience most people realise that the monarchy has almost no real power and if they tried to exert what they do have against the majority they'd get rolled quick smart.

I think the Queen has done well in the past basically by saying that any of the commonwealth countries can decide for themselves if they would they should become a republic, shes not going to try and send in the troops, proverbial or real

If there was a referendum to become a republic then im not going to be out in the streets trying ti stop it but i like the Monachy, possibly not every individual person but the idea, I dont like the idea of removing connections to a troubled past, but learning from them, changing them

My experience ,baring as with most things extremes, is that most Maori don't all white people kicked out and to be rules by the Maori King, They want the fair bits of the treaty upheld and the unfair bits corrected. I have no Maori blood in me but i wear a greenstone pendant because i see Maori heritage as part of what made new zealand what it is, i think most people see that working both ways

@Not Mike Brown's Sock i chose not to bite at that, equating those that like the monarchy as in favour of slavery is the type of hyperbole just fishing for someone

 

[Welsh Exile]

i think most people are actually very good at differentiating between an individual (in this case the Queen) or even the current inclination of an institution or idea from what it might've been in the past

The Monarchy now isn't what it was 200 years ago...hell, in a lot of unofficial ways its not what it was 20 years ago

In my experience most people realise that the monarchy has almost no real power and if they tried to exert what they do have against the majority they'd get rolled quick smart.

I think the Queen has done well in the past basically by saying that any of the commonwealth countries can decide for themselves if they would they should become a republic, shes not going to try and send in the troops, proverbial or real

If there was a referendum to become a republic then im not going to be out in the streets trying ti stop it but i like the Monachy, possibly not every individual person but the idea, I dont like the idea of removing connections to a troubled past, but learning from them, changing them

My experience ,baring as with most things extremes, is that most Maori don't all white people kicked out and to be rules by the Maori King, They want the fair bits of the treaty upheld and the unfair bits corrected. I have no Maori blood in me but i wear a greenstone pendant because i see Maori heritage as part of what made new zealand what it is, i think most people see that working both ways

So you like having a foreigner as your head of state, powerless or not?

What's the general feeling amongst the Maori people with regards to the empire and colonisation?

The queen didn't do well, she didn't wake up one morning and say "oh Philip, wouldn't it be a great idea if we let the peasants in the colonies decide if they want to become part of a commonwealth" of course not, her hand was forced and the commonwealth was her way of holding onto some kind of legacy. After all there's enough white people in those lands to make it voluntary. Shame that attitude is still around today. I'd prefer to listen to the natives and let them decide.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

So you like having a foreigner as your head of state, powerless or not?

What's the general feeling amongst the Maori people with regards to the empire and colonisation?

The queen didn't do well, she didn't wake up one morning and say "oh Philip, wouldn't it be a great idea if we let the peasants in the colonies decide if they want to become part of a commonwealth" of course not, her hand was forced and the commonwealth was her way of holding onto some kind of legacy. After all there's enough white people in those lands to make it voluntary. Shame that attitude is still around today. I'd prefer to listen to the natives and let them decide.

most people i talk do dont think about people as "foreigners" like that, being from overseas doesn't inherently make you bad

As i say in my experience your average person can differentiate between the current monarchy and the those that actually conoloised. There were many wrongs done to the Maori but, and i say this without meaning to diminish anything, it wasn;t the same as the crimes committed against the Aboriginals or the slavery perpetrated against the people of africa, or the theft of resources from other parts of the world, and so i've always found there is possibly more acceptance of the good aspects

People from england are referred to and Ngati Otoria, the Tribe of Victoria in the treaty, partners in it. that partnership was definitely abused my generations of people and in some aspect even but those that wrote the treaty but for lots of people appreciate the intent, a partnership

 

[Kiwiwomble]

further to this, i think most people realise it would make very little difference to their lives....all their gold wouldn't be melted down and we'd suddenly be rich...we'd just be a little old remote group of islands without even the faint connection to a superpower...and so probably dont even think about it that much, lifes hard enough without stressing about things that have such a small effect

 

[Welsh Exile]

most people i talk do dont think about people as "foreigners" like that, being from overseas doesn't inherently make you bad

As i say in my experience your average person can differentiate between the current monarchy and the those that actually conoloised. There were many wrongs done to the Maori but, and i say this without meaning to diminish anything, it wasn;t the same as the crimes committed against the Aboriginals or the slavery perpetrated against the people of africa, or the theft of resources from other parts of the world, and so i've always found there is possibly more acceptance of the good aspects

People from england are referred to and Ngati Otoria, the Tribe of Victoria in the treaty, partners in it. that partnership was definitely abused my generations of people and in some aspect even but those that wrote the treaty but for lots of people appreciate the intent, a partnership

Clearly there's a difference between then and now but we're talking about legacy. I'm glad your brought up another oppressed people the empire was responsible for. There's similarities though. Look at how Māori and aboriginal people across the empire have been marginalised and look at the effect it's had on these people to this day. I think I read somewhere that Maori people make up 14% of the population but 50% of the prison population. Whenever I speak to racist Australians they always call the aborigines a bunch of drunks, again, another legacy of empire.

Yes things are different but wouldn't it be better to cut all ties from that shameful past? Better yet, listen to the people it has directly effected rather than the descendants of people who were part of the oppression.

The first thing colonisers do is strip your language, in Australia they tried to literally breed aborigines out of existence. You say to them your culture, your intellect, your whole way of life is inferior to ours so get with the programme or we'll kill you and even if you comply we'll beat you down and keep you bottom of the pile it saddens me enough people in our own country lap up the pomp and ceremony of a disgusting institution but it saddens me more when I hear Māori and other peoples oppressed by the British want change but have no chance of getting it.

 

[Welsh Exile]

further to this, i think most people realise it would make very little difference to their lives....all their gold wouldn't be melted down and we'd suddenly be rich...we'd just be a little old remote group of islands without even the faint connection to a superpower...and so probably dont even think about it that much, lifes hard enough without stressing about things that have such a small effect

You think Britain is a superpower? Lol.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Clearly there's a difference between then and now but we're talking about legacy. I'm glad your brought up another oppressed people the empire was responsible for. There's similarities though. Look at how Māori and aboriginal people across the empire have been marginalised and look at the effect it's had on these people to this day. I think I read somewhere that Maori people make up 14% of the population but 50% of the prison population. Whenever I speak to racist Australians they always call the aborigines a bunch of drunks, again, another legacy of empire.

Yes things are different but wouldn't it be better to cut all ties from that shameful past? Better yet, listen to the people it has directly effected rather than the descendants of people who were part of the oppression.

The first thing colonisers do is strip your language, in Australia they tried to literally breed aborigines out of existence. You say to them your culture, your intellect, your whole way of life is inferior to ours so get with the programme or we'll kill you and even if you comply we'll beat you done and keep you bottom of the pile not saddens me enough people in our own country lap up the pomp and ceremony of a disgusting institution but it saddens me more when I hear Māori and other peoples oppressed by the British want change but have no chance of getting it.

i think cutting ties to the past doesn't actually change the past....getting rid of the monarchy doesn't suddenly make the racists you talk to not racist...hence my comment about changing the monarchy, having them working with,meeting with and honoring native peoples. Just cutting ties just looks like you want to look like your doing the right thing...see everyone...we dont talk about them because they were bad

Yeah, Maori are over represented in the prison population, much like similar situations around the world that is a much bigger problem than just getting rid of the monachy

i agree, listen to those affected...and i was relaying my experiences with those affected...lots dont care one way or the other about the monachy and if a new head of state was to come from our current group of politicians then they would probably rather keep the Monarchy

Maori is one of two official languages of NZ, Maori verse of our national anthem, the country is actually Aotearoa/New Zealand, many colonial place names have been changed back to their original Maori names

Its a long way from being "fixed"...but we're heading in the right direction and that has all happened under the queens rule, not to say it is because of her....but she didnt stop it so i dont think we can say removing the monarchy would fix tings

 

[Welsh Exile]

i think cutting ties to the past doesn't actually change the past....getting rid of the monarchy doesn't suddenly make the racists you talk to not racist...hence my comment about changing the monarchy, having them working with,meeting with and honoring native peoples. Just cutting ties just looks like you want to look like your doing the right thing...see everyone...we dont talk about them because they were bad

Yeah, Maori are over represented in the prison population, much like similar situations around the world that is a much bigger problem than just getting rid of the monachy

i agree, listen to those affected...and i was relaying my experiences with those affected...lots dont care one way or the other about the monachy and if a new head of state was to come from our current group of politicians then they would probably rather keep the Monarchy

Maori is one of two official languages of NZ, Maori verse of our national anthem, the country is actually Aotearoa/New Zealand, many colonial place names have been changed back to their original Maori names

Its a long way from being "fixed"...but we're heading in the right direction and that has all happened under the queens rule, not to say it is because of her....but she didnt stop it so i dont think we can say removing the monarchy would fix tings

And what % of Maori people want a kiwi as Head of State? Last I saw it was about 80%. I agree. We should listen to them. They're the people that have been more effected by empire and the effects that still permeate through society to this day.

Again, no one, absolutely no one, is saying this is a magic wand that will solve the worlds problems but it a a good basis, a decent enough start to say look, we're moving past this archaic system and we want to listen to natives about how we can start to make this right.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

And what % of Maori people want a kiwi as Head of State? Last I saw it was about 80%. I agree. We should listen to them. They're the people that have been more effected by empire and the effects that still permeate through society to this day.

Again, no one, absolutely no one, is saying this is a magic wand that will solve the worlds problems but it a a good basis, a decent enough start to say look, we're moving past this archaic system and we want to listen to natives about how we can start to make this right.

i havent seen any numbers around that so cant comment, all i have is anecdotally most people dont actually think about it a lot and dont seem to directly relate removing the monarchy with improving things

 

[Welsh Exile]

i havent seen any numbers around that so cant comment

It's nothing shocking. The vast majority of Māoris don't want an English royal as Head of State, The vast majority of 18-30 year old kiwis don't either. Old white Kiwis on the other hand………

 

[Kiwiwomble]

It's nothing shocking. The vast majority of Māoris don't want an English royal as Head of State, The vast majority of 18-30 year old kiwis don't either. Old white Kiwis on the other hand………

can you post links to what youve seen? as i say i havent seen these studies

 

[TRF_Olyy]

English exceptionalism at its finest.

Except Wales likes the monarchy:

The latest poll by YouGov was held in March 2022. The poll asked 3041 people in Wales for their views on the monarchy which showed that 55% support the monarchy whilst 28% would prefer an elected head of state (66.3% versus 33.7% excluding don't knows/ambivalent).

Scotland has 45% pro-monarchy as well, which isn't an insignificant number.
Always found it odd Scots saying it's the English royal family when they're descended from James VI/I on the Queen's father's side and Robert II on their mothers, so are technically the Scottish royal family

They Royals are a UK thing not an England thing, have been for centuries

 

[Welsh Exile]

Except Wales likes the monarchy:

Scotland has 45% pro-monarchy as well, which isn't an insignificant number.
Always found it odd Scots saying it's the English royal family when they're descended from James VI/I on the Queen's father's side and Robert II on their mothers, so are technically the Scottish royal family

They Royals are a UK thing not an England thing, have been for centuries

Indeed, sorry, should've said British exceptionalism. In fact a Welsh royalist is worse than an English one.

 

[Welsh Exile]

can you post links to what youve seen? as i say i havent seen these studies

Media release: Opinion Poll - Majority of New Zealanders want a New Zealand head of state — New Zealand Republic

New Zealand Republic’s latest poll shows a majority of New Zealanders support an independent head of state

www.republic.org.nz

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm not getting into the whole future of the Monarchy debate. For me that's for another day.

For today, congratulations to all those involved yesterday. Whether the whole thing was your cup of tea or not it was undeniably a quite brilliant piece of planning and execution. Particular shout out to those 8 young pallbearers, at least one of whom was a teenager. They had the eyes of the world upon them and didn't miss a beat.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I'm not getting into the whole future of the Monarchy debate. For me that's for another day.

Fair enough.

Personally, I think it's exactly the right time for the debate. If anything was shown yesterday and the last week the monarchy and in turn the media know how to exploit their right to make themselves relevant.

I see it like the gun debate after a mass shooting when the gun lobby argue that it's not the right time to debate banning assault weapons. Just the same ploy to delay the debate and then make people forget about the issue in hand IMO.