Protect Our Borders

[ncurd]

France/Belgium has the best has the larger granted but Ale is usually a far superior product to any larger and Britain wins out on that front in terms of who has the best beer.

 

[goodNumber10]

France/Belgium has the best has the larger granted but Ale is usually a far superior product to any larger and Britain wins out on that front in terms of who has the best beer.

some of the belgian beers are pretty solid ales, Lager is pretty p*sh in Belgium to be honest, Maas, Jupiler and the likes is just nasty rocket fuel, the real belgian beer is more stuff like Leffe etc.. which afaia isn't a lager is it?

 

[gaston le gaff]

Well yeah, there's all that...........but there's no Parisians in England, so who's the real winner here?

the French who don't live in Paris BOUM BOUM!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gaston le gaff]

some of the belgian beers are pretty solid ales, Lager is pretty p*sh in Belgium to be honest, Maas, Jupiler and the likes is just nasty rocket fuel, the real belgian beer is more stuff like Leffe etc.. which afaia isn't a lager is it?

have to agree when talking about beer i mean Ale and not that girlie stuff from Holland, what we are saying is not discrediting British ale which i enjoy immensely but there are Northern French and Belgium ales which are excellent but nothing actually passes the mark of Guinesss which to me is the winner of all.

 

[YoungScud]

Even if everything he said was true, teenager etc..., it wouldn't have made you wrong...

Indeed. One of the most refreshing things for me of the Scottish referendum campaign last year, apart from how it engaged the public like no other previous issue, was the way young people, voting for the first time, assiduously avoided the media and set about forming their own opinions. people like this eejit put everyone into boxes which conveniently, in their minds anyway, serve to negate opinions contrary to their own. His reference to universities is very telling in particular. God forbid we should educate our youngsters. We can't have them thinking for themselves.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Indeed. One of the most refreshing things for me of the Scottish referendum campaign last year, apart from how it engaged the public like no other previous issue, was the way young people, voting for the first time, assiduously avoided the media and set about forming their own opinions. people like this eejit put everyone into boxes which conveniently, in their minds anyway, serve to negate opinions contrary to their own. His reference to universities is very telling in particular. God forbid we should educate our youngsters. We can't have them thinking for themselves.

I worked for an oil firm in Aberdeen during it and we tried to publish results telling the public the impact of a yes/no vote. Most people were ill informed and made judgements on "w*****s in Westminster" or because "Braveheart is rubbish". I was working with an oil firm trying to educate the public about the possible impact that not being in the EU would have as well as the increase in money for Scotland.

Honestly we got on our high horses about the public being engaged but all it was was a shouting match between largely uninformed sides. Sides who were largely uncivil to each other. When I worked a public event JUST PROVIDING STATISTICS in the Oil week (offshore conference) we were shouted at by both camps for believing we were assisting the other.

I'm not saying ALL people in Scotland were uninformed angry idiots, but I'd say the majority were at least largely uneducated about the impact of the decision.

(Apologising here and now for this slight tangent of a post. Not slamming us Scots in particular but the way that politics is presented is so unappealing that only extreme views are understandable as they only deal with fundamentals.)

 

[ncurd]

"Never worked a hard day in their lives" is something I always find infuriating when people refer to university educated people. Simply because it's not true for most of them, lots do part time work during the summer in "proper" jobs. The bit that is most stupid that is the perception that they don't have "hard days" in their current jobs. From my experience I am way more tired (read mentally exhausted) from my current job than I ever was as a storeman which was a piece of **** in comparison. I'm not saying anyone works less hard just it's a bloody stupid term to put people down to make others feel superior.

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"Never worked a hard day in their lives" is something I always find infuriating when people refer to university educated people. Simply because it's not true for most of them, lots do part time work during the summer in "proper" jobs. The bit that is most stupid that is the perception that they don't have "hard days" in their current jobs. From my experience I am way more tired (read mentally exhausted) from my current job than I ever was as a storeman which was a piece of **** in comparison. I'm not saying anyone works less hard just it's a bloody stupid term to put people down to make others feel superior.

 

[Sonic Kiwi]

C'mon guys FFS.........Who gives a flying fig if the 'Empire' strikes back ie New Zealand

It is a rugby forum afterall, I'm pretty sure Churchill didn't use his cigar as an excuse on Clinton compared to Clinton on Blair... or was that Bush?.......oh well, never mind

Politics and sport don't mix. If you don't believe me, then ask the Saffas

 

[RedruthRFC]

I'm not saying ALL people in Scotland were uninformed angry idiots, but I'd say the majority were at least largely uneducated about the impact of the decision.

This sums up referendums for me in general. I vote for a party who I believe are the best placed to make decisions for me on matters I lack the training or knowledge to understand, I find it infuriating when they think it's a good idea to throw decisions back at me.

Any sort of European referendum would be exactly the same - I can just hear members of the public being interviewed on the news and coming out with such ***bits of wisdom as "I think the Euro is a good idea 'cos we wouldn't have to change our money when we go on holiday"!

 

[YoungScud]

This sums up referendums for me in general. I vote for a party who I believe are the best placed to make decisions for me on matters I lack the training or knowledge to understand, I find it infuriating when they think it's a good idea to throw decisions back at me.

Any sort of European referendum would be exactly the same - I can just hear members of the public being interviewed on the news and coming out with such ***bits of wisdom as "I think the Euro is a good idea 'cos we wouldn't have to change our money when we go on holiday"!

There you go then. The electorate are all idiots and politicians know what's best for us. You're a mainstream politician's dream. Let's just sit back and let them run our lives for us.

Zero Two, while you might have been in Scotland for a short while during the campaign, I sense that you didn't live here during the eighteen months or so on the run-up to it. having spent your time in a small corenr of the country (where the only game in town is oil), you clearly didn't get out and about on doorsteps listening to people. If you had, I'm pretty sure you would have seen things a little differently. I had the whole experience, ranging from nut jobs (on both sides, although Bitter Together were willing to go a bit further with the downright lies) to highly intelligent arguments, and deeply held sentiments, all of which have a place in politics. Politics is not some distant activity which we can just sit back and ignore. When a nation so consistently expresses preferences which are roundly ignored, eventually someting will give. It might amaze you how many of those on the Yes side are immigrants from England, Wales, Ireland and points further afield. These people often arrived here with a view to living in the UK and ended up wanting to live in an independent Scotland. To dismiss their views and those of others as uneducated misses the point.

 

[RedruthRFC]

There you go then. The electorate are all idiots and politicians know what's best for us. You're a mainstream politician's dream. Let's just sit back and let them run our lives for us.

Within two sentences, you understand my politics fully and everyone who opposes referendums is a mainstream politician's dream who thinks that the electorate are all idiots - congratulations! QED.

 

[ZeroTwo]

There you go then. The electorate are all idiots and politicians know what's best for us. You're a mainstream politician's dream. Let's just sit back and let them run our lives for us.

Zero Two, while you might have been in Scotland for a short while during the campaign, I sense that you didn't live here during the eighteen months or so on the run-up to it. having spent your time in a small corenr of the country (where the only game in town is oil), you clearly didn't get out and about on doorsteps listening to people. If you had, I'm pretty sure you would have seen things a little differently. I had the whole experience, ranging from nut jobs (on both sides, although Bitter Together were willing to go a bit further with the downright lies) to highly intelligent arguments, and deeply held sentiments, all of which have a place in politics. Politics is not some distant activity which we can just sit back and ignore. When a nation so consistently expresses preferences which are roundly ignored, eventually someting will give. It might amaze you how many of those on the Yes side are immigrants from England, Wales, Ireland and points further afield. These people often arrived here with a view to living in the UK and ended up wanting to live in an independent Scotland. To dismiss their views and those of others as uneducated misses the point.

I lived in Aberdeen for five years previous. Honestly I think that it's just due to people not having the time to actually fully look into it. Not once did I hear anyone discussing how Spain and possibly Belgium would impact the re-joining of the EU. Not once did I hear about the inevitable fluctuation of oil prices either benefiting or ruining the SNPs prediction. I could go on.

This is not because we don't CARE. It's because it's largely not in the politician's or the media's interested to put it forward. Two major think tanks produced papers (admittedly I only read the interesting bits of one) and the conclusions were ignored and bits solely picked out that already fit the preconceived narrative.

Never said politicans knew what's best. Just I'm so bored of hearing other Scots go on and on about how we got engaged and formed our own opinions etc when it was mostly uneducated shouting. What REALLY needs to happen is we need to pay attention to think tanks instead of lobbyists.

 

[profitius]

You're sounding a little like a socialist yourself here ;-)

I was leaning that way a bit until I researched it more and found out its many flaws.


All forms of socialism is doomed to failure. Forcing the population to hand over half their earnings in taxes doesn't sit right with me. Its not the money thats the problem, its the people who have control of it. Its the iron fist of communism in a velvet glove.


The less government interference the better. Theres a reason why big business love socialism. They can target the few muppets in power who make the laws AND hold the purse strings with lobbying. Now that the US of Europe is slowly forming, things are getting worse. Asylum seekers are flooding into Europe even though the people are against it. Theres democrazy for you!

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Re the Scottish election.

The SNP are a strange bunch. They want Scottish independence but want to increase immigration AND join the euro so they can be dictated by Europe. Makes sense! lol

 

[j'nuh]

All forms of socialism is doomed to failure. Forcing the population to hand over half their earnings in taxes doesn't sit right with me. Its not the money thats the problem, its the people who have control of it. Its the iron fist of communism in a velvet glove.

"Before taxes and benefits, the richest fifth of households had an average income of £78,300 in 2011/12, 14 times greater than the poorest fifth, who had an average income of £5,400.

Overall, taxes and benefits lead to income being shared more equally between households. After all taxes and benefits are taken into account, the ratio between the average incomes of the top and the bottom fifth of households (£57,300 per year and £15,800 respectively) is reduced to four-to-one."

(http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/house...ome/2011-2012/etb-stats-bulletin-2011-12.html)

Clearly, the poorest benefit from having a state.

That said, on the topic of taxation, the idea that anyone pays 50% of their income in tax is really off the mark.

Let's start with income tax. For example, say someone is earning £200,000. In the UK, they would get £10,600 tax free. They would pay 20% on £10,601 to £31,785. They would then pay 40% on £31,786 to £150,000 and then 45% on anything over £150,000.

So 20% of (31,785 - 10,600) = 4,237
40% of (150,000 - 31,786) = 47,285.6
45% of (200,000 - 150,000) = 22,500

Total tax = 74,022.6 (37% of income, despite a top tax rate of 45%)

Second, consider earnings from investments. The amount of tax people pay on income from investments is tiny compared to what they would through PAYE. See: http://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-do-the-rich-pay-lower-taxes-and-how-can-you-do-it/

Third, the affects of indirect taxation. The poorest pay heaps more on indirect taxation (such as VAT and Council Tax) than the richest. This really balances out the amount of taxation that the poorest pay compared to the richest. See: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...aying-more-than-the-rich-in-tax-10353982.html

Taxation is a mess in the Western world, because the state is held hostage by the richest. They use their political and media clout the peddle the lie that they pay too much in tax in order to reduce their own tax burden. Income tax comes down, whilst truly regressive taxes such as Council Tax and VAT remain the same.

 

[RoosTah]

I was leaning that way a bit until I researched it more and found out its many flaws.


All forms of socialism is doomed to failure. Forcing the population to hand over half their earnings in taxes doesn't sit right with me. Its not the money thats the problem, its the people who have control of it. Its the iron fist of communism in a velvet glove.

Extreme ends of the spectrum always fail, which is just as true for libertarianism as it is for socialism. Socialism assumes man can't be trusted with the destiny oh his people, whilst libertarianism falsely assumes that man is both rational and that there should be no interference in the actions of individuals because their collective action will ultimately be for a common good.

Both sets of assumptions on their own lead to disaster. As for "velvet gloves" - I'd contend libertarianism is the "velvet glove" of anarchism.

The less government interference the better. Theres a reason why big business love socialism. They can target the few muppets in power who make the laws AND hold the purse strings with lobbying.

Big business loves socialism? Really? Maybe you have a precedent you can cite in Ireland that can demonstrate that, but that's sure as f##k not how big business operates in Australia, because I certainly don't remember global giants like BHP Billiton funding a massive advertising campaign FOR the government's re-distributive proposed super profits mining tax. But they sure as heck had a pretty f##king big hand in getting rid of the Labor government that had the audacity propose Australians get more bang for our buck out of resources owned by the state that were being sold at massively inflated prices (this was back when iron ore was selling $180+ a tonne and BHP were recording profits in excess of $20 billion).

Now that the US of Europe is slowly forming, things are getting worse. Asylum seekers are flooding into Europe even though the people are against it. Theres democrazy for you!

The United States of Europe is slowly forming? Don't you mean "slowly falling apart"? It was "slowly forming" in the decades leading up to the creation of the post-state structure of the EU, but since the financial crisis Europe has been making clear moves AWAY from becoming more integrated.

As for immigrants, just because some people hate them doesn't mean everyone does. If immigration were a defining issue for people, then in the UK we'd have seen UKIP win in a landslide. They didn't, and actually ended up losing ground. THAT's democracy for you.

 

[YoungScud]

This sums up referendums for me in general. I vote for a party who I believe are the best placed to make decisions for me on matters I lack the training or knowledge to understand, I find it infuriating when they think it's a good idea to throw decisions back at me.

Any sort of European referendum would be exactly the same - I can just hear members of the public being interviewed on the news and coming out with such ***bits of wisdom as "I think the Euro is a good idea 'cos we wouldn't have to change our money when we go on holiday"!

"I vote for a party who I believe are the best placed to make decisions for me on matters I lack the training or knowledge to understand..." I'd be fascinated to know how you could think that doesnt imply that our politicians know better than we do. Then I'd like to know why you think, for example, two Old Etonians are better placed to make decisions on the economy and other matters than, say, my dead granny.

"I can just hear members of the public being interviewed on the news and coming out with such ***bits of wisdom as "I think the Euro is a good idea 'cos we wouldn't have to change our money when we go on holiday" These are not my words, theuy're yours. What inference do you think a reasonable person might draw from them? Know your politics? You've kind of thrown them out there.

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I lived in Aberdeen for five years previous. Honestly I think that it's just due to people not having the time to actually fully look into it. Not once did I hear anyone discussing how Spain and possibly Belgium would impact the re-joining of the EU. Not once did I hear about the inevitable fluctuation of oil prices either benefiting or ruining the SNPs prediction. I could go on.

This is not because we don't CARE. It's because it's largely not in the politician's or the media's interested to put it forward. Two major think tanks produced papers (admittedly I only read the interesting bits of one) and the conclusions were ignored and bits solely picked out that already fit the preconceived narrative.

Never said politicans knew what's best. Just I'm so bored of hearing other Scots go on and on about how we got engaged and formed our own opinions etc when it was mostly uneducated shouting. What REALLY needs to happen is we need to pay attention to think tanks instead of lobbyists.

Of course what you heard was uneducated shouting, if you watched the kind of dire coverage the vast bulk of the media provided. If you went to public meetings across the country, listened to the electorate on their doorsteps, took part in forums discussuing the subject, the picture was very different. As for think tanks, I've had enough of them. I got heartily sick, for example, of seeing the IFS, probably the most noisy of them, being touted as 'an independent think tank'. They are, by and large, organisations designed to beef up the fat pensions already being recieved by the great and the good of the major parties. No thanks. I don't care if you think it's a bad thing to allow the public to make decisions. It's called democracy. The laternative is just to let those voted for by a minority of the electorate to simnply run our lives. I've had that for 57 years and I've had enough of it. It's not working.

 

[valley commando]

Indeed. One of the most refreshing things for me of the Scottish referendum campaign last year, apart from how it engaged the public like no other previous issue, was the way young people, voting for the first time, assiduously avoided the media and set about forming their own opinions. people like this eejit put everyone into boxes which conveniently, in their minds anyway, serve to negate opinions contrary to their own. His reference to universities is very telling in particular. God forbid we should educate our youngsters. We can't have them thinking for themselves.

Ok your personal views are just that as are mine, but keep personal insults out of it.
Don't agree with your comments on the youngsters forming personal opinions re voting issues, most of their views at that age come from the classroom, by the time theyre mid to late 20's they will have lived a bit and have formed their own opinions.
We should be raising the age to vote not reducing it.
Voting at 16 would be wrong they are just children at that age and the way this country is (nanny state), I wouldnt class anybody as adult and therefore able to vote until their education is over.

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Indeed. One of the most refreshing things for me of the Scottish referendum campaign last year, apart from how it engaged the public like no other previous issue, was the way young people, voting for the first time, assiduously avoided the media and set about forming their own opinions. people like this eejit put everyone into boxes which conveniently, in their minds anyway, serve to negate opinions contrary to their own. His reference to universities is very telling in particular. God forbid we should educate our youngsters. We can't have them thinking for themselves.

One more thing education today is that dumbed down a degree takes about as much intelligence as the 11 plus did in the 1960s. The reason successive governments encourage further ed is to keep the unemployment figures down, they should be offering apprenticeships instead of and these are real degree courses -:
The history of lace making in the Shetlands
Harry Potter and The Age of Illusion
Meat Inspection
Food Nutrition and Music
Whats the F'ing point in that, you cant tell me that there is any point in these as degrees.

 

[YoungScud]

Whats the F'ing point in that, you cant tell me that there is any point in these as degrees.

It makes as much sense as you having access to a keyboard. Of course, if these were typical of the kind of courses on offer, I'd agree with you. We know though, both of us , that you're that you're being deliberately disingenuous by being highly selective. You missed out engineering (of many differing specialist types), science, mathematics, the arts, languages, IT (without which you'd just be shouting crap out of your window instead of typing it) etc. I haven't even scratched the surface of the kinds of degrees available, not to mention the fact that FE includes far more than university level learning. Those apprenticships you're bleating about? Furthern Education, by definition. You want an electrician in your house who doesn't know what an electron is or what it does?

By the way, you started this thread with a blanket insult to all immigrants, so don't come all over precious when you get some back. That's intellectual cowardice.

 

[ncurd]

It makes as much sense as you having access to a keyboard.

:lol:

Aye I keep hearing about these mickey mouse degree's I and my fellow generation supposedly took...never actually met anyone who's taken one.

Minor case of note: IT as you referred it is generally Computer Science/Software Engineering they are quite different disciplines to IT. Sorry hate being called IT

On the age to vote it's fair point VC made but a wrong one, how many 16 year olds have you met who get told how to vote and actually believe it and aren't opinionated little ****s who have their viewpoint on everything? My experience of 16 year old is they are way more engaged with political system than people of older generations are who have become jaded by the system.

And lastly

One more thing education today is that dumbed down a degree takes about as much intelligence as the 11 plus did in the 1960s.

Prove it! You ignorant ****wit, sorry this kind of comment always gets my goat as it has NEVER been said to me by anyone capable and usually school drop out who couldn't tell the difference between Loci and standard deviation. Every intelligent person I have ever spoken to about what school kids are asked to do these days and actually have kids in school so know what they are being asked of say they do things far more complex and difficult than was ever asked. I get ****ing bloody annoyed every time some looser who barely made it into College (if they did at all) wants to pontificate about how superior they are about thing they never did because they were incapable. Met way too many in my life and your just another.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I do agree there are a few "Degrees" which TBH could have been taken in 6th type college (poly's) rather than a uni. Which are the same now mainly IMO to get more money.

I feel that some UNi's are easier to get into than before, some.

The A levels when I took them (around 5 years ago) weren't the hardest in the world. Although I bet the people who struggle back in the day will still struggle now. Have seen older test and I didn't think it was harder at all.

But then again IMO the fees they are charging are criminal.

Edited.