Probably the most stupid question on this forum but how does the itm cup work.

[Muzzy]

Do you Hawkes Bay and Manawatu fans feel ripped off, knowing if this was done the old way, their teams would be at the top of the table?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Er, except because of the division they're in they get to play easier teams... Well thought out, your argument is.

Though I suppose it would be no different to how Super Rugby runs

I suppose you'll tell me that Hawkes Bay and Manawatu have beaten teams in the top division (Hawkes Bay haven't lost to any, in fact). Unfortunately, looking at head-to-heads is not a fair representation of ability. Top division teams have a constant stream of slightly harder games, meaning they usually field relatively weaker teams against the second division opposition.

Hawkes Bay is definitely having a good season - I'm sure they'd be around mid table in the top division, but to say they'd be top is a bit of an overstatement.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Er, except because of the division they're in they get to play easier teams... Well thought out, your argument is.

Though I suppose it would be no different to how Super Rugby runs

I suppose you'll tell me that Hawkes Bay and Manawatu have beaten teams in the top division (Hawkes Bay haven't lost to any, in fact). Unfortunately, looking at head-to-heads is not a fair representation of ability. Top division teams have a constant stream of slightly harder games, meaning they usually field relatively weaker teams against the second division opposition.

Hawkes Bay is definitely having a good season - I'm sure they'd be around mid table in the top division, but to say they'd be top is a bit of an overstatement.

As is Manawatu, in fact we're equal top on points and have beaten all other Hurricane franchise teams (HB, naki, wellington). I don't give credence to the 'stream of easier games' either given championship teams are regularly beating the premiership teams. Wouldn;t it be harder for the likes of counties who have to play Manawatu and HB rather than Wellington, Taranaki, BoP (who have all been beaten by Manawatu and HB).

Any team can beat any other team. I don't see the need for splitting the divisions as some championship teams are clearly better than some premiership teams. Yet only one will get promoted. So lets say Manawatu end up coming second, they'll stay in the championship even though they're a better team than whoever will finish 2nd bottom of the premiership.

It should've been one division, and every team played 10 games or however many they're playing. Guaranteed to play your franchise partners and neighbours, other games drawn at random. Then those teams having good/bad seasons will place realistically overall. I'd say HB and Manawatu wouldn't be top, but they'd both likely be top 6 teams.

 

[Larksea]

the whole champ/prem thing is a bit tricky. Some big unions who have lost a number of players to All Black selection are having issues. And I also look at the fact Waikato is top of the table and I think much of that owes to the fact Stephen Donald and Brendon Leonard weren't selected for the all blacks this year which is given them maybe the stongest and most experienced halves combination in the ITM cup.

it could end up with a situation where a strong union with lots of all blacks gets put down into champonship bcause of poor results while all it's all blacks can't be selected.

Other than that I think this ITM cup has been great. Been some awesome rugby, good old shcool stuff. The important thing is that it continurees to be a format for players to progress through to super rugby. Part of me thinks the format where huge amounts of rugby is played in a short time and lots of rotation is a must kinda makes a players chance to push for higher honors a bit harder.

 

[Muzzy]

Er, except because of the division they're in they get to play easier teams... Well thought out, your argument is.

Though I suppose it would be no different to how Super Rugby runs

I suppose you'll tell me that Hawkes Bay and Manawatu have beaten teams in the top division (Hawkes Bay haven't lost to any, in fact). Unfortunately, looking at head-to-heads is not a fair representation of ability. Top division teams have a constant stream of slightly harder games, meaning they usually field relatively weaker teams against the second division opposition.

Hawkes Bay is definitely having a good season - I'm sure they'd be around mid table in the top division, but to say they'd be top is a bit of an overstatement.

what argument? lol. i didn't know that though, i thought all the teams still all played each other. idk if the bigger unions fielding weaker teams would make much difference coz the bigger unions are all stacked with new players this season anyway

 

[Jayatron]

I don't see the need for splitting the divisions as some championship teams are clearly better than some premiership teams. Yet only one will get promoted. So lets say Manawatu end up coming second, they'll stay in the championship even though they're a better team than whoever will finish 2nd bottom of the premiership.

It should've been one division, and every team played 10 games or however many they're playing. Guaranteed to play your franchise partners and neighbours, other games drawn at random. Then those teams having good/bad seasons will place realistically overall. I'd say HB and Manawatu wouldn't be top, but they'd both likely be top 6 teams.

I didn't understand the change. It just isn't for the world cup is it? I liked the old format, even though the playing fixtures were a little messed up. I don't understand why the NZRU don't get back to the old 14 team league format with play-offs.