Pro 12 looking at London Welsh and London Scottish joining

[TRF_Olyy]

Are there ground rules for the Pro12?
Because London Scottish play out of Richmond atm, but it's only a 4500 stadium with one stand - if they've got to find a new stadium then I doubt they'd be located in London either.

 

[Peat]

Are there ground rules for the Pro12?
Because London Scottish play out of Richmond atm, but it's only a 4500 stadium with one stand - if they've got to find a new stadium then I doubt they'd be located in London either.

Don't think the Italian stadiums play in much bigger than that.

 

[Conal]

Welsh are in Oxford not London and I'm not sure Oxford is brimming with a Welsh expat population. Scottish would be a way of the Scots having that third pro team everyone seems to think is a good idea but they would have to invest in it. Currently both sides are 2nd tier at best.

if it came down to constructing a pro team in Aberdeen or investing in their exiles id wonder what would benefit them more or where they would spend

 

[McTallshort]

if it came down to constructing a pro team in Aberdeen or investing in their exiles id wonder what would benefit them more or where they would spend

Depends how big rugby is in east Scotland my nan was from Dundee and she loved rugby but times change.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

There are too many club rugby games as is. Adding a couple of Exiles teams will further dilute the standard of teams put out week to week. What is needed are fewer games which will lead to more full strength teams, not more games and the league being devalued. Better teams every week should lead to higher attendances and bigger TV deals. It's an easier product to sell.

Digressing from the theme of the thread a bit, split the Pro 12 into 3 mini conferences within the one table- the Irish, Welsh and Scottish/Italian. You play every team in our own conference home and away (6 games). You play every team in another conference home and away (8 games). Finally you play every team in the third conference home or away (4 games). Schedules against teams in other conferences change year on year ie you play Welsh team home and away one year and the next year you play them home or away.

Cutting four games from the calendar, as this suggestion does, removes the farce of sub-strength team during the 6 Nations and November periods by freeing up four more weekends. Adding London Welsh and London Scottish means you'd have to find four free weekends in an already crowded calendar. It's a bad idea in my opinion.

 

[chippieolamus]

Any sources?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Doubt it - London Welsh's backer recently quit (or announced he is at the end of the season?).
Rugby is a money pit, you need a certain type of crazy to want to fund a side, especially one that will be unsuccessful, in terms of fanbase and results, for at least a number of years.

I've not but I have seen the Italian sides and in a weak pro12 they are absolutely tragic!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I've not but I have seen the Italian sides and in a weak pro12 they are absolutely tragic!

Our worst are worse than your worst!
England is numero uno!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Our worst are worse than your worst!
England is numero uno!

If you were anymore English you'd be German.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If you were anymore English you'd be German.

So ****ing arrogant

 

[Amiga500]

Digressing from the theme of the thread a bit, split the Pro 12 into 3 mini conferences within the one table

Nah, overly complex.


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Would adding LW and LS be worth it?
- Would the RFU sign off on it?
- Would the FIR/IRFU/SRU/WRU sign off on it?
- How does it affect quotas for euro qualification?
- Is expectations of bigger crowds for either being realistic? Why would there be a significantly bigger draw to the Pro12 than to the English Premiership?
- Are the SRU expected to put money into LS, same for WRU and LW? How does this play with their teams back home? (Particularly the regions, as they are part-private.)
- Are LS and LW actually in London? Are they accessible to ex-pats?
- What about London Irish (well, Irish Exiles more likely) and London Italian? Will the IRFU and FIR feel a little at an unfair disadvantage?

 

[Peat]

Would adding LW and LS be worth it?
- Would the RFU sign off on it? - Maybe
- Would the FIR/IRFU/SRU/WRU sign off on it? - Given the right conditions, Yes.
- How does it affect quotas for euro qualification? - Screws second tier entry into the Challenge Cup but thats it
- Is expectations of bigger crowds for either being realistic? Why would there be a significantly bigger draw to the Pro12 than to the English Premiership? - Short term, probably not. You're relying on expats turning out for easy away games to watch their team but that would only really counterbalance. long term, its what they can build of it.
- Are the SRU expected to put money into LS, same for WRU and LW? How does this play with their teams back home? (Particularly the regions, as they are part-private.) - Yes and yes you'd have thought. I can't imagine it going down too well in Wales, but Scotland need a third team and everyone knows it (whether they can afford it is different)
- Are LS and LW actually in London? Are they accessible to ex-pats? - LS is, but might have to move. LW isn't, but may be able to move back. Anyone living in London who's whining about having to go to Oxford to watch their team for an away game is a bellend though.
- What about London Irish (well, Irish Exiles more likely) and London Italian? Will the IRFU and FIR feel a little at an unfair disadvantage? - Presumably the promise of more money for the league will smooth that one over.


So to answer the first question... Potentially yes, but probably no. The financial logic of a Pro 12 team or two in/near London is impeccable but the logistics are stacked against it.

 

[Feicarsinn]

More crap games? No thanks. While I can see the advantage of adding two London based teams, the league doesn't need more noncompetitive games. It's bad for the product, simple as.

 

[psychic duck]

More crap games? No thanks. While I can see the advantage of adding two London based teams, the league doesn't need more noncompetitive games. It's bad for the product, simple as.

It would likely be instead of the Italians, not with them.

 

[Amiga500]

More crap games? No thanks. While I can see the advantage of adding two London based teams, the league doesn't need more noncompetitive games. It's bad for the product, simple as.

Yeah, I agree if the teams were to be perpetually crap.

However, if there was a reasonable prospect of them becoming competitive within a few seasons...

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It would likely be instead of the Italians, not with them.

I don't think that is a good long term idea.

While the Italian teams are a bad joke this season, Treviso were a serious outfit last year. That should not be forgotten or dismissed. If Italian rugby is ever going to grow on the international stage, it will require a player pool that can only be supplied by professional teams, be that Italians playing abroad (as was the case for many a year, with the results we all know), or with Italians playing in a couple of Italian Pro12 teams, or with Italians playing in a couple of Italian Top14/D2 teams.

 

[Peat]

I don't think that is a good long term idea.

Well no, but if they're not paying their debts (as is being alleged) what do you do? London arguably has the same or near financial potential for the Pro 12 long term, maybe more medium term. The whole game needs Italy and it would be a bad move but there's limits.

This has the smell of a negotiating tactic tbh

 

[munstermuffin]

Just on that its not that the Pro12 are throwing Italians out. More it seems the Italians want out.

 

[Groundhog]

If the Italians want to stay a viable option in the Pro 12 they need to do something to stop the annual plundering of their best players or they simply won't improve. They only have a handful of decent players and can't afford to lose them to the Premiership every season.

 

[j'nuh]

I just don't see where they'll get the fans from. Trying to carve out a fan base is difficult enough. The Pro12 will be an even harder sell to fans when the option of attending the Premiership is nearby.

 

[munstermuffin]

I just don't see where they'll get the fans from. Trying to carve out a fan base is difficult enough. The Pro12 will be an even harder sell to fans when the option of attending the Premiership is nearby.

But most Irish people living in London rather travel to Wales or Scotland to watch Irish teams (not just their own province) than attend premiership in England. Shane Horgan is based in London and said that there is huge scope from what he can see for it to be a success.