Premiership Rugby 20/21 - Rd 19

[BPM]

They don't swap roles. As those articles outline, Simmonds has a role that is unique to Exeter's system which means he doesn't have the same responsibilities as most other back row players. His role has some similarities to a 7 acting as a 'link' man, but very little in common with a 6.

You'd also have to think about what stats you want to prioritise for a back row player. For example, Simmonds' # of carries, metres made stats will be very high, whereas his turnover stats will be low and he doesn't generally take any lineout ball. From what I've seen in the past, his tackle stats are high for an 8 and average for a flanker which kind of fits with his role being a roaming forward/8th back.

I'd mostly like to see what he does at the breakdown as IMO, that's where 'back row' players really earn their corn. The trouble is, there aren't really accurate stats that capture that AFAIK. My perception is that he'll clear attacking rucks if he's nearby but he's often stationed elsewhere waiting to be used on a carry (that's the gameplan not a criticism of him) but that he's not that busy/present in defensive rucks. Exeter are happy to have other players picking up the slack there, but I doubt England or the Lions will be.

I know this sounds as though I'm just criticising Simmonds. That isn't my intention. My opinion is that his role for Exeter is a blessing and a curse. It highlights his strengths and allows him to shine, but the role is unique which means he can't really be compared to the players he's competing with for test recognition.

I would pick him for England, but I'd have him as an impact sub.

 

[higgik]

I had the same thoughts ...

But far more speed and ability.

 

[BPM]

That may be so, but you can't just drop a player into a wholly different role at test level. Well you can, but it's generally a 'Bergamasco' situation ...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ultimately it will be interesting to see how he fares in the Lions. If he plays well against one of the most physical sides on the planet in a system that is definitely not going to be like the Exeter one, that should put to bed the criticisms once and for all. However if he repeatedly struggles as he did against Leinster then it will be another matter and he could be the next Alex Goode.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

They don't swap roles. As those articles outline, Simmonds has a role that is unique to Exeter's system which means he doesn't have the same responsibilities as most other back row players. His role has some similarities to a 7 acting as a 'link' man, but very little in common with a 6.

You'd also have to think about what stats you want to prioritise for a back row player. For example, Simmonds' # of carries, metres made stats will be very high, whereas his turnover stats will be low and he doesn't generally take any lineout ball. From what I've seen in the past, his tackle stats are high for an 8 and average for a flanker which kind of fits with his role being a roaming forward/8th back.

I'd mostly like to see what he does at the breakdown as IMO, that's where 'back row' players really earn their corn. The trouble is, there aren't really accurate stats that capture that AFAIK. My perception is that he'll clear attacking rucks if he's nearby but he's often stationed elsewhere waiting to be used on a carry (that's the gameplan not a criticism of him) but that he's not that busy/present in defensive rucks. Exeter are happy to have other players picking up the slack there, but I doubt England or the Lions will be.

I know this sounds as though I'm just criticising Simmonds. That isn't my intention. My opinion is that his role for Exeter is a blessing and a curse. It highlights his strengths and allows him to shine, but the role is unique which means he can't really be compared to the players he's competing with for test recognition.

I would pick him for England, but I'd have him as an impact sub.

Very much agree with this. Effectively Exeter play two massive aggressive flank forwards who also provide lineout threat. None of the back row particularly worry about turnover at the breakdown as that's not the plan. Attrition hits and constant pressure at the line are designed to win the ball back. The ruck isn't the focus (they like to slow it up mind). It works up to a point, but should a team match or outmatch them physically in that regard as Leinster did, the whole plan comes crashing down and Simmonds is effectively neutered too.

England could accommodate Simmonds but I suspect it would end up looking like we're playing 4 locks to make it work. I'm not sure that unless you fully subscribe to the plan it'll work (and I'm not sure we have the players to do it). I think if you want to go the Exeter way, you need to go all in. Baxter has 100% buy-in. The players clearly trust the plan and rarely deviate from it.

Eddie is nowt if not stubborn. His philosophy appears to involve creating space with a heavy carrying 8. If he tries that with Simmonds it'll be the worst coaching since Graham Henry tried to make Balshaw a crashball merchant.

 

[Scotty]

They don't swap roles. As those articles outline, Simmonds has a role that is unique to Exeter's system which means he doesn't have the same responsibilities as most other back row players. His role has some similarities to a 7 acting as a 'link' man, but very little in common with a 6.

You'd also have to think about what stats you want to prioritise for a back row player. For example, Simmonds' # of carries, metres made stats will be very high, whereas his turnover stats will be low and he doesn't generally take any lineout ball. From what I've seen in the past, his tackle stats are high for an 8 and average for a flanker which kind of fits with his role being a roaming forward/8th back.

I'd mostly like to see what he does at the breakdown as IMO, that's where 'back row' players really earn their corn. The trouble is, there aren't really accurate stats that capture that AFAIK. My perception is that he'll clear attacking rucks if he's nearby but he's often stationed elsewhere waiting to be used on a carry (that's the gameplan not a criticism of him) but that he's not that busy/present in defensive rucks. Exeter are happy to have other players picking up the slack there, but I doubt England or the Lions will be.

I know this sounds as though I'm just criticising Simmonds. That isn't my intention. My opinion is that his role for Exeter is a blessing and a curse. It highlights his strengths and allows him to shine, but the role is unique which means he can't really be compared to the players he's competing with for test recognition.

I would pick him for England, but I'd have him as an impact sub.

You do speak sense but i would say chiefs often have a Vermeulen type at 7 who fills that 6 role. Simmonds fills 7 and Ewers fills 8, obv not always. But i would still like to compare him in stats accross the bored to Curry Underhill Earl Billy Wilson ect. Just to see where he shines. I know the system is build to his strengths but still. There are many chiefs 5m out that csrry alot with big men driving them forward but he gets over so much more. Also scorez the flare tries too and is good in defencive stats, maybe below curry types but who isnt. I just want to compare. Maybe inflated due to system differences but i wamt to see.

 

[BPM]

I'd like to see the stats too, but I don't know if they're available. At least not in the level of detail I'm looking for.

 

[higgik]

That may be so, but you can't just drop a player into a wholly different role at test level. Well you can, but it's generally a 'Bergamasco' situation ...

True, just highlighting how he is not a traditional back row player and that his skill set is far more like a traditional power centre, something that EJ has really missed without Manu.

 

[higgik]

Ultimately it will be interesting to see how he fares in the Lions. If he plays well against one of the most physical sides on the planet in a system that is definitely not going to be like the Exeter one, that should put to bed the criticisms once and for all. However if he repeatedly struggles as he did against Leinster then it will be another matter and he could be the next Alex Goode.

Totally agree with Goode. His playing style suited Sarries, where they used him as the 2nd playmaker with 2 strong running centres. I am worried that Malins may end up the same way, as I don't think there are the strong centres that give good defence and go forward ball to enable Malins to prosper.

 

[The Seeker]

Amazing how JP Doyle was let go over these refs.

JP's doing well in Major League Rugby. He's a great ref and the play by play announcers all love him. And the players respect him as well. As a fan, I like him too.