Potential citings for Quarterfinals

[Will]

Thought I'd share this here as well. https://vine.co/v/eEJ1aJl1Hpa

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe they will cite this as a precedent...

[video=youtube;7CWyU37zLxw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CWyU37zLxw[video]

Both players were cited; Michael Rhodes for the neck twist, and Siale Piutau for the retaliatory punch

Piutau was let off with no suspension. His defence was severe provocation.

Rhodes got six weeks for the neck twist (later reduced to four weeks on appeal)

If they tried to use that as an example then they're mental.
A slight hold, around the waist, isn't really the same as almost having your head twisted off.

 

[ajwffc]

For fear of derailing an already out of control thread, what does being tier 1 / 2 actually mean? As far as I can see, all it means is that you play in the 6N or RC.

If it's any more meaningful than this, surely the top 10 in the world at any one time should be referred to as tier 1.

Tier 1 is teams that play in the 6N/RC
Tier 2 is teams that play outwith the 6N/RC but have played at the RWC

 

[Tim Owen]

A lot of citings this RWC from dangerous tackling at the ruck area. This is IRBs fault as they've let the "ruck" turn into a joke. Rucking should be at an upward angle so players stay on their feet. How can you ruck when some gym monkey is "supporting their own weight" one foot off the ground. Ban the Jackal position and return back to traditional rucking to improve player safety and the game as a spectacle.

 

[Mcfadden]

So eye gouging is something player are punished for when they are caught right? so why compare something that is precisely normal to something that isnt?
So should we understand that punching a french player is ok cos the entire nation is eyegouging the other teams? All teams are clean right? U incarnate exactly what makes this sport amateur. Diifernt rules depending on what nation u play for, according to all stereotypes possible.
I repeat, defending O brien is retarded. Punchin someoen on field is no way.
The way u only suggest only 2 nations on earth have this kind of behaviour is so ridiculous.
As i said , honesty and fairplay are fargone from this sport. If pape had claimed an injury, this woudl have been more weeks, but wtf is rugby doing? So if he broke a rib, maybe he woudl have take 2 weeks? This is pure insanity!!

Objective is also meaning "against the rules" and reprehensible. In all rucks and scrum all over planet people grabsd each other arse or balls, so come on. If we rule the no ass touchin, we cant even make scrums or mauls; this is ridiculous. He punched him to hurt him, period. Provocations etc, pure bs. 5yo excuse.
Dupuy i found his punishment NORMAL, Attoub as well, if you need to be specifically from a nation to be shocked by violence we disagree even more. To justify this 1 week he took , you dispatch some old **** french players did, and of course consider no other nation ever had one cited for the same reasons, come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dupuy cos of his retardness is out of any international games for his LIFE. That s paying for it and it is NORMAL.
U think all came by itself too on Ulster SF that day? Match was a shame of provocations and bad blows from each part. BUT the stupidest ones got nervous and fukked up, and got caught and took punishment wich again is NORMAL.
Considering the nationality in this is monkeysm.
Any player from ANY country doing this kind of ****t on field must be seriously punished, period.
Rest is monkey talk.

What a load of crap.

At no time did I ever say the type of responses like punching was okay. In fact, ii actually said the Irish player should have got longer. You are using arguments that have nothing to do with recognising France's long history of foul play. The "different rules for different nations" is in your head mate. I and many others never said it's a good idea to go around punching someone.

I also never said ever other nation was clean. Unless we actually say things, don't assume we think them. It's just a fact that your country does it more than most. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand or requires such defensive waffle.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

In which case, can you direct me to other bans handed out under similar enough circumstances to enable us to decide if this ban is consistent with others please?

I did put quite a few citing incidents that were comparable between themselves and pointed out the inconsistencies. Is it too much to ask you to read before you reply?

I must be the only person on the planet (other than the judicial officer) who thought that Tuilagi's breaking of his gait in order to bring his knee up at an unnatural angle looked rather strange.

Not the only one, but until you can explain intent the burden of proof is in the one making the claim, so i'm all ears.
And again, you (or them) would need to explain Pocock's knee for the sake of consistency.

As far as I'm aware, this incident didn't result in a disciplinary, hence the clean disciplinary record.

That's like saying that someone who's on video shooting someone is not a murder because he's the judge's son and due to that he avoided conviction.

I can see both sides of this. As I said on the "standard of refereeing" thread, TMOs are only one man with one pair of eyes.

This is a clear proof of your bias. One pair of eyes... I can see both sides...
What were those eyes doing while the game got halted because the french player was laying on the ground in pain from a deliberate punch?
The entire game stopped, medical staff on the pitch and the TMO doesn't even think "hey, let's have a look at what happened there."
But hey, you can see both sides, so i'm sure it's ok.

The funny thing is that i mentioned before the game i'd rather face Ireland that France, and here i am, pointing out how France was robbed.

Tell yourselves whatever you want, the game should have been 14 vs 15 for over 75 minutes. The TMO's job is to catch those incidents and he had sufficient evidence at hand in order to trigger his curiosity at the moment. He did nothing.

Who has a problem explaining themselves? Only the conspiracy theorists and wounded parties as far as I can see. World Rugby have been laudable in publishing very complete details of hearings.

You and I have very different definitions of laudable then. I also think publishing complete details is not laudable enough. I'd like to know how on earth Pocock got away with murder.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Much as I agree with you morally @smartcookie, I would question whether a concept of precedent does or should exist here. Morally I would agree with the decision, but "legally" it was a shocker, surely WR will feel the need to abide by their own guidelines rather than opening themselves up to accusations of making it up as they're going along.

The last World Cup gave the rugby world the term "tip tackle", this time it has been reinforced and will spawn the term "neck roll".

 

[OverGore]

What a load of crap.

At no time did I ever say the type of responses like punching was okay. In fact, ii actually said the Irish player should have got longer. You are using arguments that have nothing to do with recognising France's long history of foul play. The "different rules for different nations" is in your head mate. I and many others never said it's a good idea to go around punching someone.

I also never said ever other nation was clean. Unless we actually say things, don't assume we think them. It's just a fact that your country does it more than most. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand or requires such defensive waffle.

because the introducing point of your arguement is france is part of 2 nations used to act brutaly. Wich is insanely untrue. England has an history of vicious ********, Pape is a baby compared to those.But sadly yes that was probably the first thing coming to mind of the grandpas judging this case.
However , France is one of the cleanest nation in this WC and in past years.
If we start stupid stereotypes such as French do eyegouging, why not Neo zeds and sudaf uses steroids , etc, soem facts dont make a general truth. Concerning france, it does.
The simple fact that france and french players are attacked on their behaviour whne we speak of an irish punching someone is ridiculous. And i didnt come with that.
You have in your statement, france does more eyegouging than the rest of the world. The day you ll come with numbers, precisely, federations by federations, ref by ref we ll talk about ur science. That arrogance and pretention...
I hoped , briefly hoped that rugby players/fan wherever they are may be shocked by stereotypes, free violence, and bias.
This is shocking to see how debat was turned from obrien being violent to the french blabla.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I did put quite a few citing incidents that were comparable between themselves and pointed out the inconsistencies. Is it too much to ask you to read before you reply? .

Link please. I've searched to no avail.

I'll deal with the rest of your selective quoting and ignored questions when I have a proper keyboard in front of me.

I would point out that I have deliberately ignored the David Pocock incident because for the most part it passed me by, thus I've yet to for a reasoned objective opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

Apropos of no posts in particular concerning rugby in the professional era, has anyone else read Tales of A Rugby Mercenary by any chance?

 

[smartcooky]

So should we understand that punching a french player is ok cos the entire nation is eyegouging the other teams?

Do you know what a Strawman Fallacy is? Its when you take someone's argument, change it so that it no longer means what the original arguer meant, and then argue against the changed version. How about what RedruthRFC mentioned earlier; Reducto Ad Absurdum? Do you know what that means?

I'll leave it you to work that one out. It shouldn't be difficult, since you are already quite good at it.

[snipped irrelevant bo11ocks]

 

[smartcooky]

has anyone else read Tales of A Rugby Mercenary by any chance?

You mean "Confessions of a Rugby Mercenary" don't you.

I haven't read the book, but I did read an article in which the author (John Daniell) was interviewed. Even that was a very revealing expose of the dirty goings on in French rugby.

Mr Daniell has now written a book called "The Fixer" which delves into the corrupt side of rugby in France, namely match fixing.

While it is a novel, and therefore purports to be a work of fiction, I get a sense from hearing and reading Daniell talk about it, that his fictional character, former All Black Mark Stevens, is based on a real person.

Could be an interesting read!

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Do you know what a Strawman Fallacy is? Its when you take someone's argument, change it so that it no longer means what the original arguer meant, and then argue against the changed version. How about what RedruthRFC mentioned earlier; Reducto Ad Absurdum? Do you know what that means?

I'll leave it you to work that one out. It shouldn't be difficult, since you are already quite good at it.

"Reducto Ad Absurdum"

 

[Tony Manx]

More and more people are rightly questioning the whole process in this RWC. Now the press are getting into it as well.............

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...ons-being-treated-unfairly-on-discipline.html

There is a poll at the bottom of the article and when I did it 1008 people had voted and 96% said it was unfair. I am guessing a vast majority of them are UK people?

 

[YoungScud]

Peyper's view of the Gray/Ford incident as communicated to the review panel.

"I can confirm I indeed saw the incident live referred to in the citing complaint. Samoa number 7 found himself in position competing for the ball with his head below his hips already. The Scotland arriving players, Scotland 5 and 2 in an attempt to remove the threat to possession as per normal and in the dynamics lifted Samoa 7's legs and he tumble over, however the player supported on his hands through out.
After our internal performance review process I am satisfied that that I dealt with the incident appropriately."

The panel disregarded the last part of the statement as the ref is only allowed to relay "facts" and not an opinion. Hilarious.

Indeed, and it's worth remembering that the decision by the Judicial Officer is just that, opinion, based on, in his words, "preponderance of evidence". SO, a referee's opinion, voiced by someone who is an 'expert' on the game, is not admissible, while the whole thing is based on the opinion of someone who, well, isn't.

 

[YoungScud]

I'd be very surprised if it's his decision. Time will tell what the defence is, but it's hard to imagine that it will be anything that could overturn the decision as that would mean proving that he didn't punch Pape!

I think that would be a waste of everyone's time, given that he acknowledged having committed the offence. I can only imagine he's appealing the sentence.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Much as I agree with you morally @smartcookie, I would question whether a concept of precedent does or should exist here. Morally I would agree with the decision, but "legally" it was a shocker, surely WR will feel the need to abide by their own guidelines rather than opening themselves up to accusations of making it up as they're going along.

The last World Cup gave the rugby world the term "tip tackle", this time it has been reinforced and will spawn the term "neck roll".

Well, I think to get the standard correct and to get a baseline to work from, a precedent needs to be established. That is the only way to get the process fair.

But we are dealing with mulitple countries, with different ideals and beliefs, some with more morality issues than others, so where do we draw the line? Most of the World Cup participating nations were once part of the commonwealth, and most of them has a sliver of English law introduced into their legal systems. Which is how I think the WR (IRB ) started with their laws too.

But, some countries have different opinions and views with regard to sanctions. Some go for the rehabilitation approach, others for a punishment approach, some use a combination and others are way too lenient on sanctions altogether. And that is why we sit with the problem that some citing commissioners hand out harsher punishments than others, and vice versa.

Establishing a precedent will make the process better from a collective standpoint. But then again I could be wrong.

 

[McTallshort]

Only just seen the Ross Ford/R Grey incident and to get a 3 weeks ban for that is an absolute joke.

What is happening to this game?

 

[BraidyBoy]

Citing System Proven An Utter Farce ! The Referee has and should always be regarded as the ultimate authority in any match . The introduction of the TMO is an advancement to ensure that incidents missed or necessitating closer scrutiny are covered to allow the Referee to officiate fairly and without prejudice . The introduction of the Independent Judicial Officer is cumbersome , officious and quite unnecessary .The latest piece of legal nonsense concerning the dastardly offences of Johnnie Gray and Ross Ford takes the biscuit ! The IJC , Christopher Quinlan QC stated that refs " may only give evidence of fact not opinion" !The Ref , Jaco Peyper insisted he had dealt with the matter correctly by awarding a penalty against Scotland for another offence and that Samoa's Jack Lam had not had his safety endangered to the extent that the charge had alleged ." After our internal performance review process I am satisfied that I dealt with the incident appropriately" . Well said Mr Peyper - let common sense prevail and let us get rid of those superfluous court room committees !

 

[valley commando]

because the introducing point of your arguement is france is part of 2 nations used to act brutaly. Wich is insanely untrue. England has an history of vicious ********, Pape is a baby compared to those.But sadly yes that was probably the first thing coming to mind of the grandpas judging this case.
However , France is one of the cleanest nation in this WC and in past years.
If we start stupid stereotypes such as French do eyegouging, why not Neo zeds and sudaf uses steroids , etc, soem facts dont make a general truth. Concerning france, it does.
The simple fact that france and french players are attacked on their behaviour whne we speak of an irish punching someone is ridiculous. And i didnt come with that.
You have in your statement, france does more eyegouging than the rest of the world. The day you ll come with numbers, precisely, federations by federations, ref by ref we ll talk about ur science. That arrogance and pretention...
I hoped , briefly hoped that rugby players/fan wherever they are may be shocked by stereotypes, free violence, and bias.
This is shocking to see how debat was turned from obrien being violent to the french blabla.

Another good post

 

[daluaine]

How was this missed by the citing commissioner?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34536464