[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Wales vs. South Africa (02/12/2017)

[AM_Bokke]

I have only been able to watch the extended 25 minute highlights of the match and not the whole game but here are my thoughts.

- If this exact same game played out but with Gelant at 15, Am at 13, Rhule at 11(I think that Skosan has been worse), Page or Scheduer at 9, Botha at lock and Bongi at 2 then I would be happy. I don't expect this Bok team to win all of its end of year tour games, but I do expect that the whole entire squad to see some game over the course of a 4 match tour. Especially with such a poor backline. We should be trying out lots of players and combinations.

- I think that Andries needs to make that tackle on the first Wales try. As far as I can tell, he was poorly positioned for Wales' first 2 tries and he also got charged down for the 3rd. I mostly like him but poor game from him and Gelant should have started at 15.

- Otherwise seemed like an exciting match that went down to the end. I like that and think that it's good for rugby.

- Our backs are just crap. Leyds has taken his chance well I think but I really don't know what the options are. Maybe a new coach could help but it really looks like the players don't exist for us right now.

 

[SomeOke]

The kind of games make me appreciate Gatland (Ii'm fully aware he's one dimensional), he identified the attacking kick as a weakness for us and exploited it hard. Every time the welsh had the ball from 50 meters plus, Biggar took a kicking gamble and in the first 30 minutes that equaled 24 points.

As for the basics of the game I feel we had the edge, a dominant scrum, a decent gain line attack, good defense (outside of the high ball).

End of story the Welsh played smarter and better. The situation in South Africa is sad, honestly I'm numb to defeats, every weekend I convince myself we're going to win, and end up making excuses and take the hit, much like a beaten spouse I keep coming back despite the fact that logic says we will lose.

Something to emphasis is this; the divide between North and South between rugby nations is long gone, this is the third loss to Wales in a row, Ireland are categorically better and most of the UK nations are going from strength to strength .
England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales be proud of your lads, I know there are reasons to gripe but your players care, unlike the Bokke there is no breaking point for you guys, you show a lot of heart and should be commended.

I can't emphasize enough that it's not just the Bokke playing badly, it's its a strong performance by a mentally tough side. Congrats Wales, you are quality, made to look less so by the other quality sides you play in the 6n.



As for the Springboks I truly hope the coach is responsible for what is happening at the moment. Surely we have enough talent to at least be in the top 5 nations in the world.
For what it's worth I thought our props were good, Marx was good in every aspect other than line outs, our back line was aggressively mediocre but OK, playing Gelant out of position was madness, the Bulls consistently played Gelant at 23 to avoid that (despite his class), Kolisi is quality but needs to have better decision making if he wants to be the match winner he can be, Leyds, Cronje and Venter were fine, but some of the other backs looked like they were confused and didn't want to be there, I really hope, HOPE this is a fixable stage, otherwise the future narrative is very obviously the home nations and New Zealand. I still refuse to believe quota's and politics are wholly responsible for our downfall, purely for my own sanity.


Bottom line this year we won 7 games out of 13 (53% win rate). 4 of those wins were against a poor France, 2 were against a poor Argentina and 1 was against Italy, is this an acceptable standard for the Springboks? We can't beat Aus, we can't beat any of the home nations (even a 2nd string Welsh side) fair play, we're miles away from beating NZ. Is this a good enough performance for Bok side.

Do we just not have the players? To me this narrative just doesn't make sense, Saffer players find success all over the world, Flouw, Pienaar, Lambie, Stander these players are considered second string in terms of Bok internationals, yet deliver performances at club level. SURELY it's not a lack of talent we HAVE to do better, time for a complete change in coaching staff end of story.
Our team is in desperate need of leadership, brains and charisma. I will NEVER stop supporting the Bokke but I'm incredibly despondent at the moment.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Really though?

Well yes. A second string Wales beat the Boks. Its what the history books will say. Bad play, bad refereeing decisions (ALL sides get that) etc etc won't even be remembered in 10 years time. What MIGHT well be remembered though is that it wasn't a first string Wales team that beat them. Like I say, one for the detractors. Not a pretty win, but a win.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Well yes. A second string Wales beat the Boks. Its what the history books will say. Bad play, bad refereeing decisions (ALL sides get that) etc etc won't even be remembered in 10 years time. What MIGHT well be remembered though is that it wasn't a first string Wales team that beat them. Like I say, one for the detractors. Not a pretty win, but a win.

For me, one for the detractors would be a win against a strong team playing good rugby or a win against someone you typically struggle to beat, in a way that proves in some way the detractors wrong about the reservations they might have about the ability of a squad and their coaches to succeed or about the way they are trying to play.

I just don't see how Wales have stuck one to the detractors given the above definition. Maybe if Wales had continued in the same vein of their initial 20 minutes I'd say differently but it became a close game against a poor bokke side who are in a very sorry place. By the way, you weren't the only second string lineup yesterday - surely you saw the springbok 23?

Wales need to be aware of how often they fall back on the 'green shoots' narrative even after repeating history in the autumn games. Gatland shouldn't be let off the hook that easily..

P.s I'm aware that some things have been tried recently with Wales which suggest positive change, for example the second playmaker idea. But honestly I find it a bit embarassing how long its taken for Gatland to think of that as an option. Did it really take a lions tour, losing the first test and seeing Farrell and sexton take control themselves for him to acknowledge it as a possibility in general for Wales? The pace of change under gatland compared to other nations has been glacial and again, he shouldn't get off the hook for that.

 

[The5thOfficial]

For me, one for the detractors would be a win against a strong team playing good rugby or a win against someone you typically struggle to beat, in a way that proves in some way the detractors wrong about the reservations they might have about the ability of a squad and their coaches to succeed or about the way they are trying to play.

I just don't see how Wales have stuck one to the detractors given the above definition. Maybe if Wales had continued in the same vein of their initial 20 minutes I'd say differently but it became a close game against a poor bokke side who are in a very sorry place. By the way, you weren't the only second string lineup yesterday - surely you saw the springbok 23?

Wales need to be aware of how often they fall back on the 'green shoots' narrative even after repeating history in the autumn games. Gatland shouldn't be let off the hook that easily..

P.s I'm aware that some things have been tried recently with Wales which suggest positive change, for example the second playmaker idea. But honestly I find it a bit embarassing how long its taken for Gatland to think of that as an option. Did it really take a lions tour, losing the first test and seeing Farrell and sexton take control themselves for him to acknowledge it as a possibility in general for Wales? The pace of change under gatland compared to other nations has been glacial and again, he shouldn't get off the hook for that.

I would agree with this 100% except that no-one gave Wales a cat in hell's chance of winning this game. You summed it up in your first para above, more or less!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wales were -3 favourites going into the game on bet365, not sure it was as much "Wales against the world" As you want it to be

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I would agree with this 100% except that no-one gave Wales a cat in hell's chance of winning this game. You summed it up in your first para above, more or less!

I really don't think that's true. It was billed as a hard to call game given where both teams were at including recent results, but I believe many people had wales as slight favourites given home advantage.

 

[The5thOfficial]

I really don't think that's true. It was billed as a hard to call game given where both teams were at including recent results, but I believe many people had wales as slight favourites given home advantage.

I dont actually see how anyone could have called this one since this was such a second string team. A LOT on the forums didn't give Wales a chance.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I dont actually see how anyone could have called this one since this was such a second string team. A LOT on the forums didn't give Wales a chance.

Well again, by looking at the opposition rather than just yourselves. I've not read every comment but from what I've seen the welsh were worried about their team and some south africans were skeptical about theirs. A few people such as alpha bro said they were unimpressed with wales. I can pretty much guarantee you he won't have changed his mind on the basis of yesterday.

It does however make for a totally fascinating six nations in theory. Shame france are still such garbage though..

 

[The5thOfficial]

Well again, by looking at the opposition rather than just yourselves. I've not read every comment but from what I've seen the welsh were worried about their team and some south africans were skeptical about theirs. A few people such as alpha bro said they were unimpressed with wales. I can pretty much guarantee you he won't have changed his mind on the basis of yesterday.

It does however make for a totally fascinating six nations in theory. Shame france are still such garbage though..

You guys are pretty knowledegable here but I doubt ANYONE had Wales up by 14-0 after 8 minutes or whatever it was. Very unpredictable game and a knife edge ending.

 

[AM_Bokke]

I just finished watching the full match.

- Wales first try. I am not that upset by this try. If Gelant is playing more forward as a sign of attacking intent at the games first scrum I am ok with that. If he is out of position at the first scrum of his first start I am also ok with that. Credit to Wales for an excellent piece of play.

- Wales 2nd and 3rd tries. What garbage! It is so disappointing that the Boks give away these garbage tries. The Boks play so well at the dirty parts of the game - scrum, breakdown, counter ruck, defense inside their own 22 - and they give up these garbage tries.

If these two tries, Ireland's first, and the BB charge down in the Cape Town NZ match don't happen then the whole season is different. We beat NZ and Wales and have a much better showing against Ireland. These moments really matter to me as a fan.

I thought that it was an exciting game. If the Boks could just get something out of their time inside Wales 22 in the last 10 then the result could have been different. Bongi wanted it - good substitution. Nykane is good. Elton needed to be a finisher and wasn't. It's sad really.

 

[AM_Bokke]

My take on the Bok players -

15 - Andries was awful. He should not have played this game. Gelant should have started here. Bosch on the bench.

11 & 14 - I was happy with Leyds and Gelant. We need Gelant's excitement and I think that Leyds has taken his chance well.

12 & 13 - better than earlier in the season but I still don't know. Venter has been better than Serfontein if you ask me. Much more involved in link play. I only remember Serfontein taking the ball into contact in the RC.

Kriel has shown some life but I can't believe that he has played as many minutes as he has.

10 - Pollard was underwhelming. But he has more guts that Elton.

9 - Ross has been overplayed. His kicking has improved on tour. He's not an ace at it but I can see why the Boks want to work on that part of the game. Why not let Page and Scheduer practice kicking? They come in late in the game when box kicks don't happen. I like Ross but he should have sat this match.

8 - Dan was good! A little immature in attack but I thought he played well in defense and at break down.

6 & 7 - Kolisi played pretty well but not as well as i would've liked. Good to see him running on the wing and there were some nice offloads and passes with Marx and Gelant. Overall, I think that the Boks ran well this match. Improvement noted with me.

I like Mahoje. I think that he is a good rugby player. Anyone that calls him a "quota" is ignorant and stupid.

4 & 5 - Nicd to see PSDT play lock! Lood is not a menace but I think that he has played well this season. EE needed a break. I think that he has been looking a little drained the past few matches.

1 & 3 - kitsoff is a leader. Very grateful for his commitment to the Boks. Wilco is great at the scrum but would like to see him contribute more in other aspects of the game. I really appreciate Kitsoff at lineouts and Nyakane at the breakdown.

2 - Marx is the best but I would have preferred that Bongi get another start.

 

[sharkfan]

I dont actually see how anyone could have called this one since this was such a second string team. A LOT on the forums didn't give Wales a chance.

Whenever you play a Bok team coached by Allister Coetzee, you always have a chance...

 

[The5thOfficial]

Whenever you play a Bok team coached by Allister Coetzee, you always have a chance...

By the looks of it, Coetzee's days are numbered hey?

 

[sharkfan]

By the looks of it, Coetzee's days are numbered hey?

Yes it is. Last year his excuse was that he was appointed very late and didn't have enough time to properly prepare for the international season. This time round he had more than enough time to prepare and the Boks still underperformed. Rassie Erasmus doesn't take any nonsense, so we will have to see what happens.