[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Scotland vs. New Zealand (18/11/2017)

[TommiG88]

So Scotland to win the 6 nations in 2018 like they did in 2017...

 

[mania]

Scotland played well and came to play. ABs did really well to hold the Scots off i thought.

 

[NDC89]

I thought that the RC was good this year. I am a Boks fan but I thought that the Boks - ABs game was the most exciting game I had watched all year. I thought that it was better than Ireland and England in the 6N. The Aus - ABs games were also good. While not exactly smashing matches, the fact that both Aus - SA games ended in multiple try draws is pretty good.

Both the June and Autumn internationals are friendlies. The 6N and RC are trophies. Yes, the trophy comps should have more intensity. I get the sense that SH sides take the int'ls a bit more seriously but that is because the national sides are what all of rugby is built around in the SH. While England and France have all of these clubs. But let's be honest, a lot of England's and France's clubs are useless. They are loss making junk in small towns. I don't personally find the European club season very engaging or the competitive balance as high as some people like to think.

People can complain all they want about the Sunwolves and Jaguares but at least they provide their countries with professional rugby opportunities in large cities. They have real purpose. The SA and Aus purges were also needed. I think that the upcoming Super Rugby season is going to be quite good and certainly better than last year.

As rugby fans let's just all hope that both the NH and SH can maintain good balance. A strong SH makes rugby better.

The Ireland - England game may not have had as much open running rugby as some of the RC (European Weather conditions in February and March are pretty wet usually) but that doesn't mean it wasn't intense. Some of the hits that went it were phenomenal.

Onto club rugby, well that's probably just because you don't have any personal stake in how teams in those competitions perform. I enjoy watching Super Rugby a bit, but I'd still watch European rugby over it any day of the week. Same as, below that I don't really watch much Top 14 or Pro 14. Not to say that there aren't any good teams in those competitions. I just don't care as much about it as the Premiership.

 

[smartcooky]

And we roll straight in to tests the week after our season finishes. We also have tests in June, as you we'll know, again without a break. After the Rugby championship finishes we go straight into the EOYT. Explain how your season is longer........our guys are playing rugby from February through to the end of November. Let me know when you get a clue about rugby outside of your little pond.

And besides which, how is it our fault that the NH has far too much domestic rugby?

Answer, its not! The NH season is long because they CHOOSE to have it that way.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And besides which, how is it our fault that the NH has far too much domestic rugby?

Answer, its not! The NH season is long because they CHOOSE to have it that way.

No one said it is?
The whole discussion started because someone was using the SH players workload as an excuse for poor performances in November internationals.

 

[g6mcg]

So Scotland to win the 6 nations in 2018 like they did in 2017...

Well now all you ******** have gone and tipped us as dark horses we're doomed

Complaints about season length, referees, injuries and god knows what else get pretty tedious (my fault for being on a rugby forum I suppose!). Everyone suffers bad luck, but obviously Scotland have it worst

Even more frustrating after watching a replay! The main plus I'm taking is Scotland are really fun to watch. Sure, winning is important, but when you've spent years hoping Phil Godman, Max Evans and Rob Dewey are going to improve the backline it's great to be excited when we have the ball.

 

[TommiG88]

Well now all you ******** have gone and tipped us as dark horses we're doomed

Complaints about season length, referees, injuries and god knows what else get pretty tedious (my fault for being on a rugby forum I suppose!). Everyone suffers bad luck, but obviously Scotland have it worst

Even more frustrating after watching a replay! The main plus I'm taking is Scotland are really fun to watch. Sure, winning is important, but when you've spent years hoping Phil Godman, Max Evans and Rob Dewey are going to improve the backline it's great to be excited when we have the ball.

This Scotland side do have the feel of the Wales 08 grand slam winning team. Young and exciting.

 

[g6mcg]

This Scotland side do have the feel of the Wales 08 grand slam winning team. Young and exciting.

Oh ffs! I've not recovered from the Twickenham come down yet!

I get what you mean about Wales 10 years ago - remind me more of the 2005 team but I suspect that's because they were the first team that got me hooked on union. The really good thing is we can compete when we're hit by injuries, which you always will be. There's a big drop off from Russell at 10, and obviously we'd really miss Hogg, but we're generally able to remain competitive (with one notable exception, ahem).

 

[mania]

The main plus I'm taking is Scotland are really fun to watch.

this is how hurricanes fans used to feel like. yeah sure we didnt win anything but we scored some spectacular tries

 

[sigesige00]

Scotland v ABs Test history:

Scotland's win -- 0
Drawn -- 2
ABs' win -- 29

Scotland's 1st ever victory over ABs will be in the 2019 World Cup final!

In the World 7s, Scotland marked the 1st win in the last round (London) in the 2016-2017 season after 38 defeats.

 

[The Jones Boy]

They aren't looking bad because of a hard season, because they haven't had one and even if they did they couldn't use it as an excuse as they couldn't beat the Lions on the back of their hard season while fresh.

They didn't lose to the Lions though did they. ;-)
That was with a succession of key injuries.
They do ten times more travelling every season than any European team, but hey, I'm sure you'll discount that because it doesn't fit your narrow view.

England might walk an RC, but not if we were in it... and they are not used to the massive travel schedule, the high veld, and the time zones so they would be behind the 8 ball.
Ireland winning an RC?
Get a grip mate.


Ultimately it's about teams coping with the travelling and the sustained pressure of an intense tournament.
The 6 Nations is not a great tournament for sustained pressure.
As a model it is little like the RC or the RWC.
The travelling is minor and the breaks are frequent, then there is no home and away and no knockout aspect.

The SH teams rack up thousands more flyer miles in to different time zones, different climates and different altitudes.
Maybe this is the key difference that shows the alarming disparity between northern and southern hemispheres when it comes to how many times each party has won the RWC.
The best England team ever won it in 2003 away in Australia.

All the others have been won by the big 3 SH teams.
That's a 7:1 ratio.

Now you can talk about how the NH are catching up, and that may be the case, and you can talk about how Ireland are ready to do big things, and they might, you can say that the AB's are not rebuilding effectively, and that may be the truth, and we might not win the RWC in Japan because it's a tough tourney to win.

Lets look at the last one.
England melted at home in their own pool.
Ireland made it to a quarter final with an excellent team but under the 'sustained pressure' that the RWC brings, Ireland got belted by the weakest of the teams in the RC. They got smashed out of the RWC at the quarter final stage, by Argentina.
The semi-finals were dominated by SH teams.
It was a shut out.

The 6 Nations is not giving the NH teams an advantage the way the Super Rugby and the RC is giving an advantage to prepare them for the rigours of playing two high pressure games a week in the pool play and then weekly knockout games.

All that travelling and the hardships of the super rugby tournaments and the Rugby Championships stand the SH in much better stead for a RWC than their NH counterparts.
7:1 is no fluke.

 

[Hmmmmmm]

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

They didn't lose to the Lions though did they. ;-)
That was with a succession of key injuries.
They do ten times more travelling every season than any European team, but hey, I'm sure you'll discount that because it doesn't fit your narrow view.

England might walk an RC, but not if we were in it... and they are not used to the massive travel schedule, the high veld, and the time zones so they would be behind the 8 ball.
Ireland winning an RC?
Get a grip mate.


Ultimately it's about teams coping with the travelling and the sustained pressure of an intense tournament.
The 6 Nations is not a great tournament for sustained pressure.
As a model it is little like the RC or the RWC.
The travelling is minor and the breaks are frequent, then there is no home and away and no knockout aspect.

The SH teams rack up thousands more flyer miles in to different time zones, different climates and different altitudes.
Maybe this is the key difference that shows the alarming disparity between northern and southern hemispheres when it comes to how many times each party has won the RWC.
The best England team ever won it in 2003 away in Australia.

All the others have been won by the big 3 SH teams.
That's a 7:1 ratio.

Now you can talk about how the NH are catching up, and that may be the case, and you can talk about how Ireland are ready to do big things, and they might, you can say that the AB's are not rebuilding effectively, and that may be the truth, and we might not win the RWC in Japan because it's a tough tourney to win.

Lets look at the last one.
England melted at home in their own pool.
Ireland made it to a quarter final with an excellent team but under the 'sustained pressure' that the RWC brings, Ireland got belted by the weakest of the teams in the RC. They got smashed out of the RWC at the quarter final stage, by Argentina.
The semi-finals were dominated by SH teams.
It was a shut out.

The 6 Nations is not giving the NH teams an advantage the way the Super Rugby and the RC is giving an advantage to prepare them for the rigours of playing two high pressure games a week in the pool play and then weekly knockout games.

All that travelling and the hardships of the super rugby tournaments and the Rugby Championships stand the SH in much better stead for a RWC than their NH counterparts.
7:1 is no fluke.

Reads "That's an outdated view" continues to talk about the past while missing the point.

The travel for the SH teams isn't tougher than the extra matches we play here, we play more because we can but it all adds up to be equal.

I'd agree with your point about the RC being a tougher format if it wasn't full of bum teams right now, without NZ around England would sweep that tournament and Ireland would win it. Ireland smashed SA last week, will smash Argentina next week and beat Australia at home and SA away with weakened sides in 2016, I could see us losing an away game in Aus or SA late in the tournament but we'd be hot favourites. The quality of rugby has been **** poor in the RC with the exception of NZ since the RWC, the 6n has seen a marked improvement in it's top three sides.

7:1 in RWCs because of the RC's "sustained pressure" is reaching so far it's unbelievable, first of all you can discount the first three because the tournament didn't exist until 1996 and even then NZ, Aus and SA have all been better than the NH sides throughout history, rugby is the national sport of NZ and the de facto national sport of SA while it's probably 4th in both England and Ireland and second in Wales (for the past few decades) and Scotland. The SH has won more RWCs because they are always better, they aren't right now, with the probable exception of NZ. This analogy doesn't even work with the last RWC, England were a mess because the coaches were at odds with each other and there was a complete systems failure. Ireland lost Paul O'Connell, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahoney, Jared Payne and Johnny Sexton between their last group stage match and Argentina four of which were long term injuries, one career ender, that can't be put down to not being able to play consecutive weeks, also after putting the minnows away Ireland beat Italy and then France so considering Italy are a walk in the park all they had to do was play two games in two weeks the second against Argentina and the 6n has teams more than prepped for that further debunking this theory. In reality, even outside of those injuries Argentina had the advantage of playing NZ first and then tier two sides throughout the rest of the pool, we'll see how Ireland use this advantage in 2019.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Rugby could be the tenth sport in England it doesn't change the fact that they have the stadia, the money and the player base FAR in excess of everybody else.
The trouble is they have a tournament structure in the club league and in the 6 Nations that does not help them to prepare for the RWC the way the SH tournament structures do.
There is no travelling up here, there IS mega travelling in the SH.
You're just showing yourself to be ignorant by ignoring it.

Yes Englands management were poor at the last RWC, but their players were excellent. Eddie will get them better prepared for Japan.

Ireland lost players, that makes it so much harder, but it was Argentina that belted you out of the RWC, not one of the big three, and they smoked you.... instead of looking for excuses, put it right; perhaps if they were battle hardened in a tournament structure that more closely resembles the RWC year in year out they would have been better prepared for a 'campaign' of sustained pressure... instead of giving everything for a one off Autumn game that has no silverware attached. ;-)

Eyes on the prize.

7:1 is the RWC ratio.
Teams that can function in the red hot furnace of the RWC will show their mettle.
I'm picking that England will be right in the hunt at the next RWC, I can't say that about Ireland though. They crack under pressure.
After their historic victory over the AB's in Chicago, they had a 2 week turn around to recharge their batteries and play in Dublin in front of their home crowd in a return fixture.
Ireland got belted off the park 3 tries to nil.
Who has the ability to produce under sustained pressure?
That is the team that will win the RWC.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Rugby could be the tenth sport in England it doesn't change the fact that they have the stadia, the money and the player base FAR in excess of everybody else.
The trouble is they have a tournament structure in the club league and in the 6 Nations that does not help them to prepare for the RWC the way the SH tournament structures do.
There is no travelling up here, there IS mega travelling in the SH.
You're just showing yourself to be ignorant by ignoring it.

Yes Englands management were poor at the last RWC, but their players were excellent. Eddie will get them better prepared for Japan.

Ireland lost players, that makes it so much harder, but it was Argentina that belted you out of the RWC, not one of the big three, and they smoked you.... instead of looking for excuses, put it right; perhaps if they were battle hardened in a tournament structure that more closely resembles the RWC year in year out they would have been better prepared for a 'campaign' of sustained pressure... instead of giving everything for a one off Autumn game that has no silverware attached. ;-)

Eyes on the prize.

7:1 is the RWC ratio.
Teams that can function in the red hot furnace of the RWC will show their mettle.
I'm picking that England will be right in the hunt at the next RWC, I can't say that about Ireland though. They crack under pressure.
After their historic victory over the AB's in Chicago, they had a 2 week turn around to recharge their batteries and play in Dublin in front of their home crowd in a return fixture.
Ireland got belted off the park 3 tries to nil.
Who has the ability to produce under sustained pressure?
That is the team that will win the RWC.

Easy to beat a team three tries to nil when you take out their 6 and 12, two of their best players from two weeks previously, with illegal high shots that go unpunished and try the same on 11... Even got lucky that Sexton pulled his calf!

Anyway, you continue to miss my point trying to rile me up, I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about rugby in its current state, mostly how bad South Africa, Argentina, Australia and to a lesser extent NZ have regressed since the last RWC. That tournament really means nothing and I'll have to agree to disagree on your sustained pressure theory because playing two weeks on one off doesn't resemble a world cup anymore than the 6n to me. I think NZ's regression is a product of not being challenged, they dropped games to a Lions side and an Aussie side that they never should have and let Scotland back into a won game like they never would have previously and yet no one is questioning their spot as best in the world because they can't. Had Ireland beaten them twice and gone on to win the 6n there'd be an argument but they didn't they're not/weren't at that level, had England beaten Ireland and continued to impress there'd be an argument but they didn't and haven't looked like the force of 2016 this year but this will stand to a team that looks very ready for 2019. What NZ are facing right now is bad teams with big reputations, winning with little drama when it matters and thinking that's what the level required to be the best is because they continue to get told they're the best while baseless flaws of NH sides like your theory or baseless claims of tiredness in the EOYT makes it look as if there's no challenge coming from up here. I think they'll be in for a shock next year when they play England and if they play Ireland both of whom look to have a lot clearer a vision of where they're going in my opinion and by then it could be too late to fix their issues or maybe they'll get lucky and Ireland and England will win test series in Aus and SA after their best players have gone through the grueling last 6 weeks of NH club rugby. Semi-Final of Europe - Late round of league hunting for a playoff spot x2 - Final of Europe - League Semi - League Final - Three test series, if that's not sustained pressure I don't know what is... Not that it matters! ;-)

 

[The Jones Boy]

Yeah mate, we've regressed, you lose 800 caps and see how you get on for the next two years , see if you keep winning silverware, and knocking over good teams like Ireland, in their own back yard, 3 tries to nil.
Doing it when it counts is what really matters and at RWC time, that's when the big boys stand up to be counted, not to get smashed out of the ring in a quarter final by the 4th best team in the southern hemisphere.
Plenty of talk and none of the walk.
Sounds like you've got the RWC stitched up already, all you have to do is show up and collect.
Nice work.#
Good onya, you're a legend.

 

[mania]

its funny how people are saying that NZ have "regressed" or are going backwards.
imo we're exactly where we need to be. rebuilding, blooding new players and trying to figure out the new dynamics of this new mix.
lots of new ABs need to be brought/eased into the fold.
whilst i was happy for us to lose some games this year and next we've won more than we shouldve and more importantly we've learned from it. the midweek game vs the franceXV was a perfect opportunity to see some players ply their wares on a pseudo test stage.

eye on the prize people.

 

[smartcooky]

its funny how people are saying that NZ have "regressed" or are going backwards.
imo we're exactly where we need to be. rebuilding, blooding new players and trying to figure out the new dynamics of this new mix.
lots of new ABs need to be brought/eased into the fold.
whilst i was happy for us to lose some games this year and next we've won more than we shouldve and more importantly we've learned from it. the midweek game vs the franceXV was a perfect opportunity to see some players ply their wares on a pseudo test stage.

eye on the prize people.

Not to mention of course that the NH teams don't have exclusive rights to claim an injury or unavailability list.

Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick, Israel Dagg, Ben Smith, Jerome Kaino, Joe Moody, Jordie Barrett, Nehe Milner-Skudder, Liam Squire and Ryan Crotty . You can't lose players of that quality from your roster and not feel the impact.

The difference with the AB's is that, while we have missed these players, and have been rebuilding after the retirements of McCaw, Nonu, Conrad Smith, Carter, Mealamu and Slade, we have still been winning - 2016/17: 23 wins, 3 losses, 1 draw 85%

Most teams use injury and rebuilding as excuses for losing. I for one, am happy to use them as excuses for only winning 85% of our games.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I can't disagree with Arg being shite right now, but i'd disagree with some of the assessment regarding RSA and Aus. They have been both very, how should i put it, temperamental teams lately.

Sometimes RSA doesnt show up (vs Ireland, first game vs ABs) and sometimes they can give the very best ABs on a good day an honest run for their money. And Australia's last game, what can i say, i dont think the result reflects the difference between both teams. They make fools out of themselves against the ABs and they beat them the next one. Again, temperamental.

That's a problem that neither England nor Ireland have. I wouldn't judge either of those team on a standalone game.

 

[mania]

Sometimes RSA doesnt show up (vs Ireland, first game vs ABs) and sometimes they can give the very best ABs on a good day an honest run for their money.

this is what p!sses me off about the boks. imo they should be higher up the rankings than they are. they are almost aways the hardest team for the ABs to play against. when they bring their A game and are pretty brutal and relentless. but when they play other teams im like "who the fk is that team. they arent the ones that played ABs last week!!"
2009 prime example. they beat the ABs 3 nil that year yet went on EOY tour and dropped a few games. they shouldve been beating everyone that season but they just seem to clock off.
temperamental is a perfect description