[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Italy vs. South Africa (25/11/2017)

[mdaclarke]

Official stream in Italian

https://it.dplay.com/live/13654/2017-italia-vs-sudafrica/

Thanks Bruce, much appreciated!

 

[AM_Bokke]

Who's not happy with that?

I was going to give the Boks an 8 out of 10 until Ross's straight up box kick around the 50 minute mark then I was going to give them a 7. Then after that moment they soaked up so much pressure without giving up any points that I decided to give them an 8 again.

Yes, the match was slow but the weather and pitch were awful. The pitch was also narrow.

Anyway, compete control for the Boks after the first 10 minutes. I am very impressed with the discipline. French ref helped. I personally love how French refs approach the breakdown.

Bongi is a good hooker. Chiliboy working with him and Marx on line outs at training is making a difference.

Handling and knock-ons were still an issue but you can see what they are trying to do with box kicks. Line outs, scrums and the kicking game have all improved this season. Defense as well. Defense won the French game and was excellent this match.

Quite a few players have also played this year. If Am comes in for Kriel against Wales then there will have been exposure at every position while still having quite a bit of consistency. It's really not bad for World Cup preparation from a team with very little experience. Backs got the tries last match, forwards this match.

Now, I'm off to read the South African press....

 

[AM_Bokke]

Does anyone know if World Rugby Ranking points will be in play for the match with Wales next week? Is it a test or not?

 

[Brigantine]

Does anyone know if World Rugby Ranking points will be in play for the match with Wales next week? Is it a test or not?

All I'm saying is, if it didn't count for rankings points, why would World Rugby list it here?

 

[SomeOke]

Who's not happy with that?

Personally I was happy with the performance, just in terms of we did everything we needed to do right.
Set-piece, gain line, kicking out of hands and for poles were all excellent.

Bongi played surprisingly well, and as long as he can keep his throws straight, he's not going to embarrass us when he comes on. His scrummaging has always been strong and he gets through quite a lot of general work.
Venter seems to be making that jersey his own, as long as he just does the basics well, straightens when he needs to and passes when he needs to the entire back line looks a lot stronger.
Same goes for Pollard, our line looks so much better on attack with him at the helm and his boot is so much bigger than Jantjies it's much more difficult for teams to dominate the kicking battle. Hopefully his kicking for poles remains solid as it was this game.
Flouw, Kitsof, Eben, Vermulen were all decent.
We still can't catch high balls at all, and Andries Coetzee is playing himself out of that jersey in my opinion.

That said; it was a poor performance by Italy, and considering they are not the strongest side to begin with I'm not convinced this performance actually tells us anything. When our forwards dominate we always look good, but that just isn't going to happen against the top tier sides. Wales should be a much better yardstick (I thought they actually looked good against the ABs).

 

[AM_Bokke]

Yeah, will be good to see Galant play a full match at fullback against Wales. Here's to hoping!

It's not like Italy were sloppy and made a ton of mistakes though. The Boks just didn't let them beat them on their side of the field. Yes, Italy are not a rugby power but the Boks firmly kept them under wraps.

Yes, Venter has been a big improvement. Much more composed as a linkage to going wide.

Yeah! Here's hoping to Wales being a more open game. Under the roof and on a real rugby pitch I hope the boys can run a bit. Galant, Am, Kolisi, du Preez, maybe Mahoje. Lots is ability to run there. Both Marx and Bongi can run as well. Imagine Kwagga in the loose forwards!

I am watching the Wales v. All Blacks match now.

 

[AM_Bokke]

Just finished watching the Wales v All Blacks game. There can be no doubt that the roof on the stadium helps with running rugby. Hopefully the Boks can show that they can mix it up with the styles that they can play.

Then we'll see what happens with the coach when the Boks return. While I trust all the Saffas on this forum that say that that AC is crap I will be a little sad if he is fired. I don't like coaching carrousels and NZ, Eng and Ire are for sure better organized unions than SARU and Aus is at a "peak" in terms of the players they have. I don't really see how the Boks are supposed to be better than they currently are.

We'll see! Good luck to the Boks next week! I will be watching!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I always have a dig at Ross Cronje so have to say I thought he kicked better in this game. The kick and chase gave us little hope of counterattack, even if we'd wanted to.

The Italian pack is a thing of mystery. It is feeble compared to the good old days but is capable of the occasional powerful performance. It needed one here but they were never at the races.

 

[Ainsthrilln]

Comic-cuts by Hayward and Bellini against a cross-kick and the game is effectively already over. Treviso reserves looked better last night! Really not liking what I've seen from Hayward so far compared to Padovani. Hopefully Minozzi gets a run out at fullback later in the game. Italy are on track to slip to the 8th ranked European side today (presumably for the first time in the modern era) - I want to see some fecking fire in the belly about that prospect!

Fair play to the Boks, they are far more cohesive this time than the same fixture last year and their motivation cannot be questioned (unlike last year).

In my humble opinion, Italy should play more with tier 2 sides. Apart from a couple of matches per year against the odd Pacific Islander, Italy only plays against stronger teams. Most of times, far stronger.

It is not easy to improve your attack, and gain confidence in your game, if you always get outpowered by the adversaries' defenses. I understand the anxiety of playing against Georgia, but I believe that more games against the likes of USA, Japan or Romania would allow them to try different things, gain some matches, and ranking points, and start believing that they can win matches.

 

[AM_Bokke]

In my humble opinion, Italy should play more with tier 2 sides. Apart from a couple of matches per year against the odd Pacific Islander, Italy only plays against stronger teams. Most of times, far stronger.

It is not easy to improve your attack, and gain confidence in your game, if you always get outpowered by the adversaries' defenses. I understand the anxiety of playing against Georgia, but I believe that more games against the likes of USA, Japan or Romania would allow them to try different things, gain some matches, and ranking points, and start believing that they can win matches.

Yeah but Italy must get more money from playing in 6N and other Tier 1 sides. The money matters to coaches and facilities.

It's not Italy's problem that it is almost impossible to break into rugby. That is rugby's problem.

 

[Ainsthrilln]

Yeah but Italy must get more money from playing in 6N and other Tier 1 sides. The money matters to coaches and facilities.

It's not Italy's problem that it is almost impossible to break into rugby. That is rugby's problem.

Well, they have been playing on a yearly basis with the best teams of Europe, and almost yearly with Argentina, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand.

It is very difficult to get among the best teams, but they had more opportunities than most teams.

And of course money matters, specially in the home games, but I imagine that the Australian tour and the match in Singapore against Scotland were not very profitable for them. What I suggest is that a match against Japan would have been better that the one at Singapore. And maybe a visit in June to the US should be considered sometime soon.

I do not criticize them for visitting Australia (in fact they played quite well there), but they only play against Top10 nations, and I think that helps them.

On the bright side, Italian homegrown players are getting better. Against South Africa only 4 starters were born outside Italy, if I am not wrong, and at some point only 3 of them were on the field. When I starting rooting for Italy on 2007, in many games less than a half on their players were born in the country.

 

[AM_Bokke]

Yeah, compare Italy to Scotland. Isn't the Scottish team half foreign born?

It'll be tough but I hope Italy get some wins in this year's 6N. Maybe they can beat France and Wales. I also don't think that Scotland are unbeatable.

 

[Ainsthrilln]

Yeah, compare Italy to Scotland. Isn't the Scottish team half foreign born?

It'll be tough but I hope Italy get some wins in this year's 6N. Maybe they can beat France and Wales. I also don't think that Scotland are unbeatable.

Yes, this is also true. Lot of people criticized the naturalization policy of the Italians, but not so many did the same with the Scottish. Maybe the results are the difference, or maybe the tradition.

I really hope they can beat at least a match, I root for them, but without winning habit, it is not so easy to wrap the games. Look at how many games were losed by the Italian sides of the Pro 14 by just 1 point this year.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

In my humble opinion, Italy should play more with tier 2 sides. Apart from a couple of matches per year against the odd Pacific Islander, Italy only plays against stronger teams. Most of times, far stronger.

It is not easy to improve your attack, and gain confidence in your game, if you always get outpowered by the adversaries' defenses. I understand the anxiety of playing against Georgia, but I believe that more games against the likes of USA, Japan or Romania would allow them to try different things, gain some matches, and ranking points, and start believing that they can win matches.

From a purely rugby perspective I agree entirely, particularly on the Singapore match with Scotland. This year has been better than most, with two games against Fiji and one against the Pumas, in theory, not vastly superior sides - or at least ones you can play without fear of losing by 50 points if you experiment and have a bad day. The rumours are of Georgia next November.

There are many positives going on with youth development in recent years and fitness, conditioning and coaching this year at the Pro14 sides. But there is a problem. O'Shea is making himself indispensable as a kind of Director of Rugby, but the success of his coaching team on the national side is far less obvious. Italy will have to keep him and his staff until the RWC and I can't decide if we are going to improve at all in that time (I go back and forth in my mind).

 

[TRF_heineken]

It wasn't a fun game to watch. The conditions were terrible.

Pollard's kicking improved considerably since the French test. Which makes me think that it was just cobwebs being shaken off last week.

Not much I can say about the performances, everyone did their job, apart from Skosan, who again didn't impress, and was yet again terrible under the high ball.

I think now that Gelant has made his debut, he should be a direct swap for Skosan for the Wales game.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

O'Shea described as "visibly upset" after the match. At least I wasn't the only one. Relieved he is at least realising things are bad. You can't fix something without first acknowledging that there is an issue.

 

[Da Grappla]

In my humble opinion, Italy should play more with tier 2 sides. Apart from a couple of matches per year against the odd Pacific Islander, Italy only plays against stronger teams. Most of times, far stronger.

It is not easy to improve your attack, and gain confidence in your game, if you always get outpowered by the adversaries' defenses. I understand the anxiety of playing against Georgia, but I believe that more games against the likes of USA, Japan or Romania would allow them to try different things, gain some matches, and ranking points, and start believing that they can win matches.

I get your point but that's the purpose of Italia A or Italia XV, I don't know how it is called.

You are gonna learn way more from losing against the best than from winning watered down Tier 2 teams