[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Ireland vs. South Africa (11/11/2017)

[JohnKA]

Sad backline this is

The Springbok team to against Ireland in Dublin on Saturday:
15. Andries Coetzee, Emirates Lions – 9 caps, 0 points
14. Dillyn Leyds, DHL Stormers – 5 caps, 0 points
13. Jesse Kriel, Vodacom Bulls – 24 caps, 30 points (6 tries)
12. Damian de Allende, DHL Stormers 27 caps, 15 points (3 tries)
11. Courtnall Skosan, Emirates Lions – 9 caps, 10 points (2 tries)
10. Elton Jantjies, Emirates Lions/NTT Shining Arcs (Japan) – 20 caps, 198 points (2 tries, 37 conversions, 38 penalties)
9. Ross Cronje, Emirates Lions – 6 caps, 10 points (1 tries)
8. Francois Louw, Bath, England – 54 caps, 40 points (8 tries)
7. Pieter-Steph du Toit, DHL Stormers – 29 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
6. Siya Kolisi, DHL Stormers – 25 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
5. Lood de Jager, Vodacom Bulls – 32 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
4. Eben Etzebeth (captain), DHL Stormers – 63 caps, 15 points (3 tries)
3. Coenie Oosthuizen, Cell C Sharks – 29 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
2. Malcolm Marx, Emirates Lions – 10 caps, 15 points (3 tries)
1. Tendai Mtawarira, Cell C Sharks – 95 caps, 10 points (2 tries)
Replacements:
16. Bongi Mbonambi, DHL Stormers – 11 caps, 0 points
17. Steven Kitshoff, DHL Stormers – 19 caps, 0 points
18. Wilco Louw, DHL Stormers – 1 cap, 0 points
19. Franco Mostert, Emirates Lions/Ricoh Black Rams (Jap) – 15 caps, 0 points
20. Uzair Cassiem, Toyota Cheetahs – 6 caps, 5 points (1 try)
21. Rudy Paige, Vodacom Bulls – 11 caps, 5 points (1 try)
22. Handré Pollard, Vodacom Bulls – 22 caps, 190 points (2 tries, 30 conversions, 37 penalties, 3 drop goals)
23. Francois Venter, Toyota Free State Cheetahs – 3 caps, 0 points

 

[mosfeldt]

Good post on reddit.

"Schmidt doesn't want a creative full back who can spark an attack in loose play from inside the 22. He wants a full back who will take the ball into contact within rucking distance of his pack, and go to ground, allowing play to tighten up and restart.

Creative, sparky counter attacks look great, but they're unpredictable and risky. And for every one that leads to a try, a player misses an offload or knocks the ball on or gets tackled into touch or gets isolated from support and gets poached. The boring play that Rob Kearney excels in is safe, reliable, and predictable.

With half backs like Murray and Sexton, you've a host of options from a 10m ruck. Box kick, tight five carries, kick for touch, kick for territory, spread it wide, some variant of a Sexton loop, stuff these players drill and drill and drill every week of their careers. If you send O'Halloran tearing off by himself, you're not just relying on him to not **** up, you're relying on him to work magic, to turn world class defenders on their heels and leave them on their ass. You can't practice whether Jesse Kriel is gonna buy the dummy or not, or sit back on his heels, or commit to the tackle.

Schmidt like predictability, he likes procedures, he likes carefully crafted and thought out backline moves. Kearney's boring play sets all of that up. And he's well capable of tearing up some turf when he has his chance."

I'm excited to see Stockdale and Conway to start. Inexperienced maybe but I think they're fully capable of bringing it to Test level. Front row replacements are a bit of worry but it'll be grand I've become more and more confident of this game as the days have gone by.

 

[SomeOke]

I don't think there is much question that our back line is outclasses by the Irish. It's going to be up to our star forwards to put us on the front foot (Marx/Eben/PstD/Kolisi) and then go from there, if we want to win.

That said this is a huge opportunity for someone like Leyds to really put his best foot forward, he will be fielding a lot of kicks so it's up to him to display his x factor. Same goes for DDA, no man is more hated by the springbok public (and loved by me) and this is his opportunity to show that he belongs in the side.

Ultimately say what you want about them I don't see line-breaks coming from anywhere else in our backs other than those two players. Kriel and Skosan are great athletes but not the kind of player that creates an opportunity (more finishers). Cronje and Jantjies are all about the distribution and Coetzee is just solid.

 

[munstermuffin]

Jack McGrath wasn't training fully but could have played by the sounds of things, Killers form matched with Jack not getting to his pre-Lions form and the slight knock enough to get Kilcoyne in. If it was the same scenario for a Six Nations match, I could see Jack getting the nod! Can't wait now!

To be fair Killer is in huge form and mixed with Jacks poor form which is common after Lions tour it's a fair call. Equally Ruddock could be argued over POM in same way.

Overall it annoying as I think Schmidt is experimenting and hard slam him. Don't really agree with Kearney but fair comments/points are made here so again wouldn't make much noise. Plenty of good kick chasers and aerial ability in backs. Are we going to see a Munster style approach.

 

[Diomedes]

To be fair Killer is in huge form and mixed with Jacks poor form which is common after Lions tour it's a fair call. Equally Ruddock could be argued over POM in same way.

"Poor" is a bit much, he's been off the heights that he's capable of but fully fit I'd still rather him over Kilcoyne, even at their current respective forms.

 

[munstermuffin]

"Poor" is a bit much, he's been off the heights that he's capable of but fully fit I'd still rather him over Kilcoyne, even at their current respective forms.

Well I'd use poor as he hasn't being playing well mixed in with Kilcoyne and Healy in great form. The thing is I think McGrath is fit. And could'v played. Is he better than Kilcoyne? Yes nobody is doubting that but isn't in best of form. Don't get fooled by injury. McGrath would be fully fit for this. It's more he's had a Lions summer so a few weekends off from big games allows him get back to fresher fitness and find that form again.
Again on current forms I'd have it exact same as Schmidt does. Healy Kilcoyne and McGrath but as Alpha said if this was 6Nations game McGrath would be in.

Just to aid my "poor" comment. His stats are poor in pens conceded, collapsed scrums and few others. Kilcoyne has stopped this to an extent and think Jacks flaws are down to long summer. He will benefit from being used sparingly in next few weeks

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Ahead of team selections I had this as a coin toss, but I think Ireland by a very comfortable 10-13 point favourite, mainly because:

- Henshaw has been pining for Bundee O'Aki like an overgrown puppy missing its master. After a year of stagnation since leaving the last Irish side to win the Pro12 we might see a proper Henshaw turn up and remind us what a brutal carrier he is now that his sensei is back beside him.

- there'll be some youth, hunger and dynamism in the Irish wing in the first time since forever.

- that is some seriously bad selections at centre for the Boks. Kriel has been treading water all year, DDA has done zilch to merit selection and Ventner comes back from injury and jumps ahead of RJvR in the pecking order!

- poor centres means limited opportunities for some decent Bok wings. They'll get the ball with zero momentum.

- PSDT out of position as a loose forward ahead of some decent specialist loosies.

 

[profitius]

I thought they might play Francois Venter. He has looked a class player for the Cheetahs and would be getting used to European conditions by now. At least he is on the bench. Looks like SA have picked a big pack and expect an attritional game.


Lineout is a big worry for Ireland. POM being there helps it no doubt but Herring being on the bench tells you everything you need to know about the standard of hookers in the country. Best is solid and Niall Scannell is head and shoulders above everyone else but is injured. Looking at the big picture though, we must have the worst hookers of all tier 1 nations. None of the other contenders can throw.


As I said before. its a positive selection from Schmidt. Stockdale and James Ryan are the 2 ones to watch from an Ireland point of view.
Conway is in cracking form and Sweetnam has a lot of class. Rob Kearney is the controversial call thats angered a lot of people. I'd prefer a more attacking option myself but I can certainly see why RK was selected and he usually performs in the big games. I would have liked to see someone like Larmour in the squad ahead of D Kearney though.


Aki and Henshaw combined well for Connacht in their pro12 winning season but Ireland play a different style. Still Henshaw is better playing 13 so that'll be interesting. Ringrose is Ireland's best center IMO so it'll be interesting to see what happens when he comes back from injury.


The backrow are off form or in SOB's case, hasn't played much this season. There is a Lions hangover feel about it (same with Jack McGrath this season). Furlong and Henderson seem to be playing well though. Cian Healy is back to his best too after injury plagued seasons which is good to see. I just hope himself and Kilcoyne don't give away any dumb penalties.


I didn't see SA's games again NZ but I saw the 2 draws against Aus. Hard to know what to make of them but they look like they're trying to play a fast paced, loose game. Their selection against Ireland suggests they'll play it tighter this weekend.

 

[sharkfan]

Who's going to wear the white shirt?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Who's going to wear the white shirt?

We'll be in black/grey I think.

 

[Groundhog]

We've worn the away strip in this fixture before.

 

[sharkfan]

Sad backline this is

Yes the centre pairing is very sad

 

[sharkfan]

We've worn the away strip in this fixture before.

I remember you guys wearing a black strip a few years back

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well this isn't going to be fun watching.

I hope our forwards pitch up for the match. But that backline is making me very tense.

Hopefully the NH pitch will aid our forwards more.

 

[JohnKA]

Well this isn't going to be fun watching.

I hope our forwards pitch up for the match. But that backline is making me very tense.

Hopefully the NH pitch will aid our forwards more.

AC forgot to take his DDA fanboy shirt off

 

[User1245]

Well this isn't going to be fun watching.

I hope our forwards pitch up for the match. But that backline is making me very tense.

Hopefully the NH pitch will aid our forwards more.

Agreed. The forwards have been carrying the team the entire year and they will need to do it even more so in European conditions.

Man I miss the days of Fourie du Preez, Jacque Fourie, Frans Steyn, Jean de Villiers and even... (shock horror) Morne Steyn

 

[SomeOke]

OK I'm going to earn myself some some down votes now and defend DDA, and I'm fully aware that this may come across as just Stormers fan service so feel free to take this as the ignorant rhetoric it probably is.

So DDA burst onto the scene in super rugby 2015 where he was one of the best centres in the competition, he had the most defenders beaten in the comp, 5th in clean breaks, 8th in offloads (and best Saffer) etc etc.
He also had the most tackles missed in the comp which has started the narrative that DDA is useless defensively , but he shared that dubious honour with Michael Hooper, for both men this was counteracted by a MASSIVE amount of tackles made.
DDA's true tackle percentage that year was 78% - which is not amazing by any stretch but to put it in perspective, Crotty had 80% that year and Serfontein had 76%.

Since then he has been stuck in a cycle of injured for most of the year -- > Rushed back into the Bok team by AC ----> Injured for most of the year ------> Rushed back into the Bok team by AC.
He hasn't played much rugby and he hasn't reached the form of 2015 by any stretch since then, I'll also concede that while he can tackles and is a big lad, he's also not the best decision maker in defense, something that Kriel unfortunately shares. They both have a tendency to either over shift or under shift and leave holes in defense. I'm hoping that this can be coached out of both players in the future.
He was largely blamed for a poor performance from our backline in 2016 which is rubbish in my opinion, no one looked good in 2016 and that backline was structure-less and terribly coached.

My point basically is this, we have a tendency in South Africa to always throw out the old in favour of the latest shiniest player, often when exposed to test level their failings become more apparent until we just shout for the next big thing.

I strongly believe DDA has a very high ceiling - in other words the player that he can be (and hasn't been lately) is world class. If given an extended injury free opportunity. What him and Rohan Janse van Rensberg share is that they both have the ability to create line-breaks and holes in the opposition defense by themselves they don't need space or a defensive lapse, or someone else to put them in a gap to create an attacking opportunity. In my opinion that kind of ability is invaluable in any team, you need one or two players who can create opportunities at a whim.
I do agree though that he probably should have been given more of a chance to prove himself in a domestic competition before he was rushed back into the team (again).

tl:dr; Give Damian a chance, I still think he has more raw talent to offer, he's young enough to play for us in 2023, and we shouldn't be so quick to discard him.




As for the game though, yes I still believe it will be down to the forwards to carry us. That and our ability to field high balls will basically decide whether we can win this game or not.

 

[welshglory]

Yes the centre pairing is very sad

I don't know how Kriel keeps getting selected. He is one of the most average centres amongst the tier 1 teams. At least De Allende can run over people and slide tackles now and again. Kriel literally gets the ball runs sideways dummies and then gets tackled every single time.

 

[TRF_heineken]

OK I'm going to earn myself some some down votes now and defend DDA, and I'm fully aware that this may come across as just Stormers fan service so feel free to take this as the ignorant rhetoric it probably is.

So DDA burst onto the scene in super rugby 2015 where he was one of the best centres in the competition, he had the most defenders beaten in the comp, 5th in clean breaks, 8th in offloads (and best Saffer) etc etc.
He also had the most tackles missed in the comp which has started the narrative that DDA is useless defensively , but he shared that dubious honour with Michael Hooper, for both men this was counteracted by a MASSIVE amount of tackles made.
DDA's true tackle percentage that year was 78% - which is not amazing by any stretch but to put it in perspective, Crotty had 80% that year and Serfontein had 76%.

Since then he has been stuck in a cycle of injured for most of the year -- > Rushed back into the Bok team by AC ----> Injured for most of the year ------> Rushed back into the Bok team by AC.
He hasn't played much rugby and he hasn't reached the form of 2015 by any stretch since then, I'll also concede that while he can tackles and is a big lad, he's also not the best decision maker in defense, something that Kriel unfortunately shares. They both have a tendency to either over shift or under shift and leave holes in defense. I'm hoping that this can be coached out of both players in the future.
He was largely blamed for a poor performance from our backline in 2016 which is rubbish in my opinion, no one looked good in 2016 and that backline was structure-less and terribly coached.

My point basically is this, we have a tendency in South Africa to always throw out the old in favour of the latest shiniest player, often when exposed to test level their failings become more apparent until we just shout for the next big thing.

I strongly believe DDA has a very high ceiling - in other words the player that he can be (and hasn't been lately) is world class. If given an extended injury free opportunity. What him and Rohan Janse van Rensberg share is that they both have the ability to create line-breaks and holes in the opposition defense by themselves they don't need space or a defensive lapse, or someone else to put them in a gap to create an attacking opportunity. In my opinion that kind of ability is invaluable in any team, you need one or two players who can create opportunities at a whim.
I do agree though that he probably should have been given more of a chance to prove himself in a domestic competition before he was rushed back into the team (again).

tl:dr; Give Damian a chance, I still think he has more raw talent to offer, he's young enough to play for us in 2023, and we shouldn't be so quick to discard him.




As for the game though, yes I still believe it will be down to the forwards to carry us. That and our ability to field high balls will basically decide whether we can win this game or not.

I would love to give him a chance, he has that x-factor to break tackles like he did the last time he played against Ireland.

But he's out of form, and out of favour because of that red card against the All Blacks. It would have been better if AC released him to the WP to get his confidence back up and play himself back into form.

 

[JohnKA]

As stated in another post , yes he may have a high ceiling but i feel that when selecting thr bok team you pick inform players , players should not get picked for the boks hoping they find form again , same goes for Pollard i guess .

DDA - VENTER
KRIEL - AM

Very easy to see what pair offers more .

OK I'm going to earn myself some some down votes now and defend DDA, and I'm fully aware that this may come across as just Stormers fan service so feel free to take this as the ignorant rhetoric it probably is.

So DDA burst onto the scene in super rugby 2015 where he was one of the best centres in the competition, he had the most defenders beaten in the comp, 5th in clean breaks, 8th in offloads (and best Saffer) etc etc.
He also had the most tackles missed in the comp which has started the narrative that DDA is useless defensively , but he shared that dubious honour with Michael Hooper, for both men this was counteracted by a MASSIVE amount of tackles made.
DDA's true tackle percentage that year was 78% - which is not amazing by any stretch but to put it in perspective, Crotty had 80% that year and Serfontein had 76%.

Since then he has been stuck in a cycle of injured for most of the year -- > Rushed back into the Bok team by AC ----> Injured for most of the year ------> Rushed back into the Bok team by AC.
He hasn't played much rugby and he hasn't reached the form of 2015 by any stretch since then, I'll also concede that while he can tackles and is a big lad, he's also not the best decision maker in defense, something that Kriel unfortunately shares. They both have a tendency to either over shift or under shift and leave holes in defense. I'm hoping that this can be coached out of both players in the future.
He was largely blamed for a poor performance from our backline in 2016 which is rubbish in my opinion, no one looked good in 2016 and that backline was structure-less and terribly coached.

My point basically is this, we have a tendency in South Africa to always throw out the old in favour of the latest shiniest player, often when exposed to test level their failings become more apparent until we just shout for the next big thing.

I strongly believe DDA has a very high ceiling - in other words the player that he can be (and hasn't been lately) is world class. If given an extended injury free opportunity. What him and Rohan Janse van Rensberg share is that they both have the ability to create line-breaks and holes in the opposition defense by themselves they don't need space or a defensive lapse, or someone else to put them in a gap to create an attacking opportunity. In my opinion that kind of ability is invaluable in any team, you need one or two players who can create opportunities at a whim.
I do agree though that he probably should have been given more of a chance to prove himself in a domestic competition before he was rushed back into the team (again).

tl:dr; Give Damian a chance, I still think he has more raw talent to offer, he's young enough to play for us in 2023, and we shouldn't be so quick to discard him.




As for the game though, yes I still believe it will be down to the forwards to carry us. That and our ability to field high balls will basically decide whether we can win this game or not.