[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Ireland vs. Argentina (25/11/2017)

[munstermuffin]

What would your starting fifteen be if everyone was available for this team?

If everyone was fit

15. Zebo but if not then Stockdale
14.Earls
13. Ringrose
12. Henshaw
11. Stockdale and if Zebo excluded torn between Conway and O,Halloran or Carbery at 15.
10. Sexton
9. Murray
8. Stander
7. O'Brien
6. O'Mahony
5. Henderson
4. Toner
3. Furlong
2. Best
1. Healy

16. Scannell
17. McGrath if on form
18. Ryan
19. Ryan
20. Ruddock
21. Depends
22. Aki/Carbery
23. Conway

But I'd mix Lamour, Bill Johnston, Wootton, Daly in back 3 along with Sweetnam and others before. Get all 9s decent time, Backrows mixed. In 2nd row Beirne is back next year, Kleyn is a live option in 18months, Dillane. There is huge chance for depth

 

[munstermuffin]

Ignore my views on Kearney for this but very interesting comment in Sky there on tonight.

If Argentina didn't score that last try it would have been a pen try and yellow for RK as it was a shoulder barge and no arms.
1. Is that a bit harsh? I know I slate RK but in general terms for rugby.
2. In those scenarios isn't it more beneficial to receive pen try to make con easier

 

[munstermuffin]

Ignore my views on Kearney for this but very interesting comment in Sky there on tonight.

If Argentina didn't score that last try it would have been a pen try and yellow for RK as it was a shoulder barge and no arms.
1. Is that a bit harsh? I know I slate RK but in general terms for rugby.
2. In those scenarios isn't it more beneficial to receive pen try to make con easier

 

[petite]

it was a red! if any arg player hits like that he'll be cited right now!. can some one explain what the f was that bent feeding call?

 

[profitius]

Ignore my views on Kearney for this but very interesting comment in Sky there on tonight.

If Argentina didn't score that last try it would have been a pen try and yellow for RK as it was a shoulder barge and no arms.
1. Is that a bit harsh? I know I slate RK but in general terms for rugby.
2. In those scenarios isn't it more beneficial to receive pen try to make con easier

RK's right arm was wrapped but you couldn't see it from most camera angles.

 

[munstermuffin]

RK's right arm was wrapped but you couldn't see it from most camera angles.

I think it was actually for 2nd last try the argument was but as I said if I saw that given as Pen try I'd consider it soft myself.

Also interesting to see Pat Spillane have a go at Schmidt and Ireland this morning. A crossover I never expected. Giving out at Ireland adopting a plan from Mickey Harte in a safety first approach and that wins are overrated as they are friendly wins against tired batted southern hemisphere teams who aren't really bothered

 

[petite]

RK's right arm was wrapped but you couldn't see it from most camera angles.

anyway it was a dangerous high tackle

 

[Groundhog]

Far from a vintage performance but we have to be realistic, numbers 11-14 had 5 caps between them before today! The 3 replacement backs had 16 caps between them. Was always going to mean the backline were rusty.

Disappointed McGrath didn't get more time off the bench as I thought Murray was very poor today. Disagree with muff about Kearney who played well today but the biggest misses from the November series are Ireland are no further along in developing depth at 15 and 9.

Farrell was much improved on last week. Aki looks comfortable at international level. Centre depth looks a lot better than it did a month ago.

Stockdale has nailed down the left wing spot.

Ryan and Henderson worked well as a second row partnership. The Leinster player has a worrying habit of picking up knocks though.

O'Mahony had his best game since England in the 6 Nations.

Agree almost entirely with you. Kearney was very good. I still think he has to be phased out soon, because the frustrating elements of his game won't improve at his age and we are now bursting with back three talent across the provinces, but I understand playing him with otherwise inexperienced back three players, and he did a good job running at space yesterday. My caveat to phasing him out is that the 6 Nations is no time to experiment, so not sure how that situation will develop,
McGrath should have got more gametime. Murray was poor by his own standards, namely his box kicking, but wanted to see more McGrath regardless.
I think Farrell looked great. He is a defender magnet and we took advantage of that yesterday. Looked like he understood his role much better today and probably benefited from some of the experience around him. I wasn't wildly impressed with Aki. He didn't do a whole lot wrong, defends doggedly, but didn't bring his Connacht performances to this level. Worth developing, but hasn't put up his hand to start. Comfortable, but not exceptional is a fair description I think.
Stockdale is outstanding. Schmidt himself pulled him up on some hesitant defending that I didn't see, but it's good to see how high Schmidt's standards are.
Ryan's injury profile is bad news, I'd hoped the amount he'd bulked up would make him more injury averse, but we'll see. Henderson has seriously toughened up and adapted to be an enforcer. That's great news and will put him in the ranks of genuinely world class second rows.
Very happy for O'Mahony. He was dogged. O'Brien as well slowed down their ball so much when he was on. We'll miss him badly if he gets injured, depth or no depth.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ryan is going to attract injuries for a while yet, he needs another 10-15kg on his frame to take the punishment. As long as he avoids any knee or ankle injuries he'll be sound and keep bulking.

Can't say I was too impressed, Murray and Sexton we're poor, centres didn't help but they aren't bad second and fourth choice options. (Henshaw ahead of both) Stockdale is Tommy Bowe but he could be even better, RK will probably be around til 2019, he's played far more good than bad games in the last two years despite general consensus and is the best 15 we have right now. Pack was ok, I think we miss Heaslip and McGrath for ball retention because the rucks have gotten messy, we do gain in carrying and the line out though so it's much of a muchness.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Expected better of you.

For disagreeing with you?

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'd like to see more of an attacking threat at 15 but there is no better option. Not a fact, an opinion. You think there is. Again, not a fact, an opinion. Ireland's best ever coach agrees with me!

I made the same point re: O'Mahony as you made re: Kearney. It was intentionally preposterous. Glad you agree!

Don't think you'll find many rational people saying Keith Earls or CJ Stander aren't deserving of their international place in a full strength team. What people may point out is faults in their game but there aren't better options.

What would your starting fifteen be if everyone was available for this team?

If there was a game next week:
Kearney, Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale, Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Furlong, Henderson, Toner, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander. Replacements: Scannell, J McGrath, John Ryan, James Ryan, Ruddock, L McGrath, Jackson, Aki

Come the World Cup:
Carbery, Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale, Sexton, Murray; J McGrath, Scannell, Furlong, Henderson, James Ryan, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander. Replacements: Best, Healy, John Ryan (could be Porter if his scrummaging is of sufficient standard), Dillane, Leavy, L McGrath, Aki, Sweetnam

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

But I'd mix Lamour, Bill Johnston, Wootton, Daly in back 3 along with Sweetnam and others before. Get all 9s decent time, Backrows mixed. In 2nd row Beirne is back next year, Kleyn is a live option in 18months, Dillane. There is huge chance for depth

Would love to see Bill Johnston in particular emerge before the World Cup but can't see it happening. A lot depends on the outcome of the Paddy Jackson/Stuart Olding trial I imagine. If Jackson is unavailable, Ireland are up sh*t creek. Sexton and Carbery will go the the World Cup but the 3rd flyhalf spot will be up in the air. Could be any of Ian Keatley, Tyler Bleyendaal or Ross Byrne either.

 

[munstermuffin]

For disagreeing with you?

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'd like to see more of an attacking threat at 15 but there is no better option. Not a fact, an opinion. You think there is. Again, not a fact, an opinion. Ireland's best ever coach agrees with me!

I made the same point re: O'Mahony as you made re: Kearney. It was intentionally preposterous. Glad you agree!

Don't think you'll find many rational people saying Keith Earls or CJ Stander aren't deserving of their international place in a full strength team. What people may point out is faults in their game but there aren't better options.


If there was a game next week:
Kearney, Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale, Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Furlong, Henderson, Toner, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander. Replacements: Scannell, J McGrath, John Ryan, James Ryan, Ruddock, L McGrath, Jackson, Aki

Come the World Cup:
Carbery, Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale, Sexton, Murray; J McGrath, Scannell, Furlong, Henderson, James Ryan, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander. Replacements: Best, Healy, John Ryan (could be Porter if his scrummaging is of sufficient standard), Dillane, Leavy, L McGrath, Aki, Sweetnam

I've no issues you disagreeing with me. More you trying to say it's only when it comes to Kearney there bias. That's bull. I can dig back as I said where Alpha said Stander not an international 8 or Earls isn't good enough. That is common ground. Yes Schmidt agrees with you on RK. And he's in charge but doesn't mean he right. No more than it means I am.
But my point more on RK is while he did have a good game yesterday it' getting credit because it was a rare more than a norm in recent times. That's all. And he did his strengths good yesterday but still never brought wingers in to it much or linked. Basically Kearney is a safe bet regards basics but attacking threat he is down the que and all rounded it simply what do we want. That opinion.

On RWC if Rhys Marshall keeps going like he is he may make late dash

 

[munstermuffin]

Would love to see Bill Johnston in particular emerge before the World Cup but can't see it happening. A lot depends on the outcome of the Paddy Jackson/Stuart Olding trial I imagine. If Jackson is unavailable, Ireland are up sh*t creek. Sexton and Carbery will go the the World Cup but the 3rd flyhalf spot will be up in the air. Could be any of Ian Keatley, Tyler Bleyendaal or Ross Byrne either.

Jackson not looking good from a source close to case

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Alpha said Stander not an international 8 or Earls isn't good enough

What?

11. Earls
8. Stander

That's from a post made in early October...

I'm critical of Zebo, not sold on Earls against great tier 1 opposition yet but I've always been a fan of Stander and when Heaslip isn't around he's the only option at 8 really.

 

[munstermuffin]

What?



That's from a post made in early October...

I'm critical of Zebo, not sold on Earls against great tier 1 opposition yet but I've always been a fan of Stander and when Heaslip isn't around he's the only option at 8 really.

I'm on about back in March and in RWC times. But equally as you say your not sold on Earls fully is my point. In Munster he's seen as Best winger in country. My point is different areas produce different opinions.

Also in March you stated O'Mahony isn't at level of or an improvement on Heaslip or Stander and him coming in would not improve Ireland.
In games since O'Mahony has done better than Stander statistically and our lineout, scrum and I'd argue balance has improved. Again as I said it provincial stuff but to think it only Kearney gets the microscope is B.S.
Of Kearney does really string a few top games together and get going then it will change a few views and he will get more of positive reviews but 1 poor game followed by 1 good game in November doesn't mean he's bang back on form

 

[big ginger 8]

Ryan is going to attract injuries for a while yet, he needs another 10-15kg on his frame to take the punishment. As long as he avoids any knee or ankle injuries he'll be sound and keep bulking.

If you want him to play offensive tackle in the NFL! He's done his bulking, he'll add an extra 5kg max. The lad is massive even by pro standards. The extra bulk is far more likely to be the cause of injury than prevent it.

Unfortunately seemingly ever young second row goes through this while they adapt to the extra weight. Remember when Henderson couldn't stay fit? They just need to stay patient with him and he'll make it through.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If you want him to play offensive tackle in the NFL! He's done his bulking, he'll add an extra 5kg max. The lad is massive even by pro standards. The extra bulk is far more likely to be the cause of injury than prevent it.

Unfortunately seemingly ever young second row goes through this while they adapt to the extra weight. Remember when Henderson couldn't stay fit? They just need to stay patient with him and he'll make it through.

What weight is he? The Irish profiles have him at 108kg which is light enough for 6"8 and 9kg lighter than Hendo. Obviously these are notoriously bad but I think 118kg would be a decent goal if he can move with it!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

He will be fine Argentina are done for day. It's always a poor Nov game between these 2. Ireland are clearly superior team and Arg are like a tier 2 team

That'd be two Tier 2 sides in two weeks that Ireland couldn't beat at home by more than single figures. Dark days for the oval ball game on the Emerald Isle!

Seriously though, with the willingness by Schmidt to use faster wingers I fear Italy are going to get absolutely shredded in the 6N by at least three sides (not a new thing I know). It will stand Ireland in good stead for a ***le push as they are going to find bonus points easier to come by.

 

[AM_Bokke]

If Ireland can score more they could go a long way. I only watched the first half of this match but credit where it is due Sexton was involved in a try.

I have a ton of respect for the Irish union. From the provinces to player management to the building of their brand I think that they are doing it right. Credit to them. They deserve 100% to be the 3rd best side in the world and I hope they take the 6N next year.

But emotionally I just can't like them. I am sure that they are nice enough guys but I can't help but think that Murray, Stander and Earls look like guys that go to pubs looking to get in fights. Why do they look like that?

Also, Irish commentators are so horrible. Total homers. No other commentary team is anywhere remotely as bad.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Odd, odd comment...