[November Tests 2017 EOYT] France vs. South Africa (18/11/2017)

[SomeOke]

Not to many people really putting up their hands to be leaders either. I thought it would be Pollard by now but he's barely played rugby since he popped onto the scene.
Honestly Whiteley is the clear choice until 2019 but he won't make it to 2023 so who knows.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Not to many people really putting up their hands to be leaders either. I thought it would be Pollard by now but he's barely played rugby since he popped onto the scene.
Honestly Whiteley is the clear choice until 2019 but he won't make it to 2023 so who knows.

Well I think the 2 candidates are Duane Vermeulen and Francois Louw. But because they play in the NH they don't qualify for the role. AC said he wants a captain that is in South Africa.

 

[JohnKA]

Need to start backing Pollard now ,, Elton had his chance and Pollard can be captain in the long run

 

[unrated]

Some of it might be that Eben is an 80 minute player every game. Kolisi has not played 80 minutes every game.

It's interesting that at this time last year some thought that Lambie would be the captain. I understand that he is not fit this season but he is also not involved at all having gotten out of his Bok contract and moved to France.

To me it's an example of the turmoil that SA Rugby is in with regards player management. The environment is just very unstable.

I think Lambie can be a good option for the future and a potential world cup trump card with the following assumptions:
1: He gets good consistent injury free game time at Montpellier. (If he is injury free then he should be a starter at any club team in the world)
2. AC or the possible new coach realizes the value of supplementing our homegrown squad with the experienced European players. They don't necessarily need to start but at the very least squad players and on the bench to close out games. These guys know how to handle that pressure at the end.


Yes the coaching squad mostly picking home based players does send a good message to young players that if they want to play for the Boks then they have to stay in South Africa. And it could possibly help the long term by encouraging two or three player who has Springbok ambitions to stay in between a double digit amount of player heading north. But with our recent results they might be doing more harm to the Bok brand than expected. In this case we should totally relax our selection policy and at least at the absolute very least pick the 30+ cap bok players.



P.s I saw a news article that RJVR has signed with the Sharks. Was very happy for a brief period then saw its the Sale Sharks.

 

[AM_Bokke]

I think Lambie can be a good option for the future and a potential world cup trump card with the following assumptions:
1: He gets good consistent injury free game time at Montpellier. (If he is injury free then he should be a starter at any club team in the world)
2. AC or the possible new coach realizes the value of supplementing our homegrown squad with the experienced European players. They don't necessarily need to start but at the very least squad players and on the bench to close out games. These guys know how to handle that pressure at the end.


Yes the coaching squad mostly picking home based players does send a good message to young players that if they want to play for the Boks then they have to stay in South Africa. And it could possibly help the long term by encouraging two or three player who has Springbok ambitions to stay in between a double digit amount of player heading north. But with our recent results they might be doing more harm to the Bok brand than expected. In this case we should totally relax our selection policy and at least at the absolute very least pick the 30+ cap bok players.



P.s I saw a news article that RJVR has signed with the Sharks. Was very happy for a brief period then saw its the Sale Sharks.

Do you think that Flyhalf is a position that an international player could be successful in? I can imagine that international players can fill in at prop, lock, back row and wing but I am not sure about other positions. Aren't they just too important to continuity and understanding a team's systems and game plan?

If SA competed in the 6 nations I could imagine international players making more sense. But with the Rugby Championship both outside the international window AND during the northern club off season I just don't see international players as viable. Will they be consistently released? Will they have any time off?

 

[unrated]

Do you think that Flyhalf is a position that an international player could be successful in? I can imagine that international players can fill in at prop, lock, back row and wing but I am not sure about other positions. Aren't they just too important to continuity and understanding a team's systems and game plan?

If SA competed in the 6 nations I could imagine international players making more sense. But with the Rugby Championship both outside the international window AND during the northern club off season I just don't see international players as viable. Will they be consistently released? Will they have any time off?

The Rugby championship is in the international window and clubs will be compelled to release their players for national selection.

IMO a foreign based flyhalf can be successful provided he has the experience. I think sometimes people tend to overcomplicate the job of the flyhalf within a tactical system.
Whether the Flyhalf is based in SA or Europe. Obviously you will need to look at the player that possesses the core qualities you want in a flyhalf such as good distributing, good kicking qualities and maybe the ability to attack the line or a good playmaking vision. Then comes the part where i think your point is based on, the idea that a foreign (non home based) flyhalf will be less accustomed to the tactical system and environment of the team than a local playing flyhalf.

If we compare this to a real scenario such as Elton Jantjies and Partick Lambie. Jantjies will be able to spend more time with the team than Lambie because of his location and Lambie will only be released a week before the test window starts. In that regard i think Jantjies will have the advantage from a conditioning perspective as he is training at a high level with the national team for longer while Lambie would need to slug it out in the top 14 and then join training. Not great but from a tactical perspective he wont need that long to adjust to the system. Its really not that complicated. They will need to play what's infront of them with the coaches giving them guidelines on what areas they need to play conservatively, who they should try and kick to etc. But then it's up to the player as a decision maker to play the game. In that sense i believe the Experienced players that is still good enough and playing in Europe can add value to the team.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Kolisi for captaincy?

 

[AM_Bokke]

The Rugby championship is in the international window and clubs will be compelled to release their players for national selection.

IMO a foreign based flyhalf can be successful provided he has the experience. I think sometimes people tend to overcomplicate the job of the flyhalf within a tactical system.
Whether the Flyhalf is based in SA or Europe. Obviously you will need to look at the player that possesses the core qualities you want in a flyhalf such as good distributing, good kicking qualities and maybe the ability to attack the line or a good playmaking vision. Then comes the part where i think your point is based on, the idea that a foreign (non home based) flyhalf will be less accustomed to the tactical system and environment of the team than a local playing flyhalf.

If we compare this to a real scenario such as Elton Jantjies and Partick Lambie. Jantjies will be able to spend more time with the team than Lambie because of his location and Lambie will only be released a week before the test window starts. In that regard i think Jantjies will have the advantage from a conditioning perspective as he is training at a high level with the national team for longer while Lambie would need to slug it out in the top 14 and then join training. Not great but from a tactical perspective he wont need that long to adjust to the system. Its really not that complicated. They will need to play what's infront of them with the coaches giving them guidelines on what areas they need to play conservatively, who they should try and kick to etc. But then it's up to the player as a decision maker to play the game. In that sense i believe the Experienced players that is still good enough and playing in Europe can add value to the team.

OK. In relation to Argentina's selection policy I have seen some people say that European based clubs might not release players for the Rugby Championship anyway, making the debate moot.

Even if European clubs do need to release players for the Rugby Championship doesn't it make sense that a player that wants to play for their county in the Rugby Championship would hurt their negotiating leverage for the best possible contract from a European club? Aren't the clubs just like: "OK, if you want to play for your SH country that is fine but your offer will be much less from us" or something like that. Players then just tell the Boks that they aren't available for selection.

IDK how these things play out but it seems pretty clear to me that working with European based players is just very difficult.

 

[User1245]

I guess this is going to be a grudge match now in light of the RWC bid?

Last week Ireland had it out for us for winning the recommendation and this week France will want to give one last upper cut while we're on the ropes

 

[AM_Bokke]

Kolisi for captaincy?

Well,

Do you think that Kolisi has been playing well? He is not a contributor at the breakdown, doesn't play a role in the lineout, doesn't have much affect at scrums. I like him as much as the next guy but does he deserve to be captain?

I am all about giving people of color opportunities and the Bok's first black captain would be huge. But has he earned it in a Bok shirt?

I say no. I am a person that is disappointed with his recent performances.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well,

Do you think that Kolisi has been playing well? He is not a contributor at the breakdown, doesn't play a role in the lineout, doesn't have much affect at scrums. I like him as much as the next guy but does he deserve to be captain?

I am all about giving people of color opportunities and the Bok's first black captain would be huge. But has he earned it in a Bok shirt?

I say no. I am a person that is disappointed with his recent performances.

The thing is if you want to be captain, you have to be sure you will be constantly picked for the Boks. I think Kolisi is slowly cementing his place in the team and he did have a good run the first 4 matches this year for the boks, but his form has been off the past 2 tests.

 

[JohnKA]

I dont know about Kolisi , he is a good player but he only start to be a factor when the game opens up , in a tight afair or first half he is nowhere to be found

The thing is if you want to be captain, you have to be sure you will be constantly picked for the Boks. I think Kolisi is slowly cementing his place in the team and he did have a good run the first 4 matches this year for the boks, but his form has been off the past 2 tests.

 

[SomeOke]

I dont know about Kolisi , he is a good player but he only start to be a factor when the game opens up , in a tight afair or first half he is nowhere to be found

I do agree with this, I rate Kolisi, but I'm not sure our game plan allows for a "link" loose forward. I think a lot of old school fans get triggered when they see a forward on the wing in attack, but he's the wide man in our 1-3-3-1 formation we have adopted this year.

The thing is - in a team with very little x factor he is the kind of player who occasionally randomly creates tries from nothing. He's a good defender as well and does offer leadership, making the most tackles out of any of our forwards in the RC, and the most dominant tackles in the comp.

I think when Whitley/Kriel/JLDP are all fit Siya's place is up for grabs, but with the injuries we have he's as close to nailed on as you can get.



As for the game the French look to be finally pulling it together at the moment, I thought they looked quite strong agaisnt New Zealand despite the loss.

That said when our pack gets dominance we start to look good and I'm not sure the French can compete with us up front like the Irish could.

I expect we'll win this, but if we lose I won't even be that upset, anything that helps AC get fired.

Lastly the time this is being played is a nightmare, 10pm on a Saturday night, are they hoping we'll be too drunk to care when we are being clobbered?

 

[JohnKA]

Anyone know when the Springbok team will be announced ? Really hoping AM get a chance this weekend !

 

[TRF_heineken]

Anyone know when the Springbok team will be announced ? Really hoping AM get a chance this weekend !

Just announced and added to the OP.

Pollard Starts!!

 

[JohnKA]

Just announced and added to the OP.

Pollard Starts!!

No AM !! But DDA again !!!!!! ,,, Happy about Pollard ,,, Venter ,,,, Vermeulen and Dan d Preez ,,,, but why call up AM when he never plays !! Already ruined Coenie for the Sharks now he keeps AM away from a break to carry DDA bloody bags !!

 

[TRF_heineken]

No AM !! But DDA again !!!!!! ,,, Happy about Pollard ,,, Venter ,,,, Vermeulen and Dan d Preez ,,,, but why call up AM when he never plays !! Already ruined Coenie for the Sharks now he keeps AM away from a break to carry DDA bloody bags !!

To be fair to Am, he's the new kid on the block. The Springbok coaches have a tendency to take an uncapped player on the EOYT and not play him at all. Louis Schreuder was the victim last year...

 

[JohnKA]

To be fair to Am, he's the new kid on the block. The Springbok coaches have a tendency to take an uncapped player on the EOYT and not play him at all. Louis Schreuder was the victim last year...

True ,,,, BUT picking DDA over AM is just insane ,,, DDA and the word on form is like black and white ,,,, Kriel and DDA were terrible last week but yet they still play ,,, AM really deserve a chance now ,,, i guess he will get it against Italy but picking DDA over and over i just see as clueless ,,,, and Kriel is not doing any better

 

[SomeOke]

It's definitely a step in the right direction, hopefully Pollard will keep the opposition defence a little more honest by behind a ball carrying option and taking the ball a bit flatter.
Venter isn't a game breaker, but at this stage we just needed someone with half a brain in the middle of our back line. I don't see redemption happening for DDA this tour, so why not have Am at 23 - I agree with that but it's already 10 changes to the team from last week, and they usually do try and keep the changes to a minimum.

Better - but I still have no faith in AC. It isn't even about selection for me, Pollard can't magically save us, we need new leadership at the very top.

 

[AM_Bokke]

I would like to see Skosan sat but I guess not. He needs to have a great game. I wouldn't count any of his games this year as good. Not June tests, not RC, not Ireland.

I think that Venter will add leadership to the squad. He is not the quickest, but I think that he is intelligent and will bring mental fortitude.

I would love to say that DDA is fine on the bench and can come on to defend if we are ahead but then I remember his ugly late hit against Sopuanga. Really boneheaded. I don't trust players that don't have control over their agression. Am should be on the bench. I understand that a coach doesn't want to make too many changes at once but I can't see why both Kriel and DDA are in the 23. One should be dropped.

I can't remember the last time I saw Duane play but I hope that he can help at the breakdown. He'll need to be quick. Louw was a step slow last week and couldn't quite win any turnovers. He was close but not there. Boks really need turnovers to build confidence.

I would love it if we could get an early lead and run the game out in the 2nd half, I think that is how this team needs to play because there just isn't much firepower. I don't think that heart is absent for the team because the Boks did come back to draw Aus in Perth and to lead for a bit against the ABs in the 2nd half. But they need a quick start. If the Boks don't get at least one try in the first 15 minutes I think they will lose.

Good luck to Pollard. His boot is stronger than Elton's so I hope that he can get the Boks some territory and then drive over the try line.