[November Tests 2017 EOYT] France vs. South Africa (18/11/2017)

[George Ford]

if DDA starts another game i am not even going to take the time and watch ! Is AC blind or just stupid !?!

Well, it appears he will certainly start again. It's the reason he is the only specialist 12 on tour. It's Kriel who might get axed as we all know with AC it's all about equal chances (and not fair-game) when it comes to selection and Kriel had enough of a show this year. Hopefully Venter get's a run-on chance at 13.

All I care and hope for though is Pollard being selected at 10 and I will lose my marbles if we see a different Bok backline turnout with him at pivot. The chances of this occurring being highly likely, preferably with Cronje still as his 9, but even Paige would be good i'm sure.

The back 3? Gawd. I would still like to see Gelant get a run at 15, but for France I would actually try him at 14 and keep Andries at 15, play Lleyds at 11. This combo should afford enough cover at the back.

This just in:

Coenie Oosthuizen tore his ACL and MCL and will face a lengthy spell on the sidelines.
Pieter-Steph Du Toit rules out for test due to Concussion.
Duane Vermeulen called up to Bok Squad.

So chances are we will see a reshuffled back row combo of Vermeulen- 8, Kolisi- 7 & Louw- 6. Now what we should be asking ourselves is this: Why wasn't this combination used last weekend?

Tight-five to stay the same that played most of the match.

 

[JohnKA]

AM an Venter is solid option at 12 ,,, centre pair should be Venter and AM with Pollard at 10 !

Well, it appears he will certainly start again. It's the reason he is the only specialist 12 on tour. It's Kriel who might get axed as we all know with AC it's all about equal chances (and not fair-game) when it comes to selection and Kriel had enough of a show this year. Hopefully Venter get's a run-on chance at 13.

All I care and hope for though is Pollard being selected at 10 and I will lose my marbles if we see a different Bok backline turnout with him at pivot. The chances of this occurring being highly likely, preferably with Cronje still as his 9, but even Paige would be good i'm sure.

The back 3? Gawd. I would still like to see Gelant get a run at 15, but for France I would actually try him at 14 and keep Andries at 15, play Lleyds at 11. This combo should afford enough cover at the back.



So chances are we will see a reshuffled back row combo of Vermeulen- 8, Kolisi- 7 & Louw- 6. Now what we should be asking ourselves is this: Why wasn't this combination used last weekend?

Tight-five to stay the same that played most of the match.

 

[Ospervat]

Having watched the RTE post match analysis - interesting comment from Shane Horgan.

He commented how when Ireland beat the Boks in 2004 the Irish team did a lap of honour around the park - it was a big deal! The Irish attitude after Saturdays win was more of a "meh"

This change in attitude is a reflection of the change in respect. Gone are the days when the Bok side was feared. When the other team felt intimidated. When they ran onto the park 20 points down before the kick off.

Sure, the bok pride is wounded (yet again) and SA beat France three times already this year, but I reckon France will fancy their chances of a home win this Saturday after last weeks Bok fiasco.

No fear & no respect for you opponent with a healthy dose of self belief wins games.

 

[unrated]

A poll on News 24 :
The question was simple: Following the Springboks' record defeat to Ireland in Dublin, should Allister Coetzee be sacked as head coach?

The result of the vote, which attracted more than 22 000 responses, was overwhelming.

By Tuesday morning 18 231 (82%) of the participants believed that Coetzee should be fired immediately while 2 813 (13%) believed that he should be given until the end of the ongoing northern hemisphere tour to prove his worth.

There were just 1 187 (5%) who believed that Coetzee was the right man to lead the Boks to the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/bok-fans-have-spoken-coetzee-must-fall-20171114

 

[TRF_heineken]

Having watched the RTE post match analysis - interesting comment from Shane Horgan.

He commented how when Ireland beat the Boks in 2004 the Irish team did a lap of honour around the park - it was a big deal! The Irish attitude after Saturdays win was more of a "meh"

This change in attitude is a reflection of the change in respect. Gone are the days when the Bok side was feared. When the other team felt intimidated. When they ran onto the park 20 points down before the kick off.

Sure, the bok pride is wounded (yet again) and SA beat France three times already this year, but I reckon France will fancy their chances of a home win this Saturday after last weeks Bok fiasco.

No fear & no respect for you opponent with a healthy dose of self belief wins games.

What is there to fear??

As for the France series. The French team wasn't their complete team, some clubs didn't even release their fringe players because of the Top14 Final and Semis.

It wasn't really that big of a deal to win those 3 games... We all knew that. And we all know the team they'll face on Saturday will be a lot tougher and difficult to beat.

 

[JohnKA]

Thats the thing , no disrespect to the Irish they are a very good side but we are the Springboks we should put atleast 20 - 30 points over them ,,,, now we cannot even compete ,,, and its not like the Irish have all of a sudden become a masterclass team they did not even play that well we the Boks were just plain crap !

As i said no disrepect to the Irish but this is the standard the Springboks have had and just show have far they have fallen ,,, losing to teams like Japan ,,,, Italy ,,,, getting destroyed by the All Blacks ,,,, Irish ,,,,, thank goodness we not playing the English !!!

Rant over XD

Having watched the RTE post match analysis - interesting comment from Shane Horgan.

He commented how when Ireland beat the Boks in 2004 the Irish team did a lap of honour around the park - it was a big deal! The Irish attitude after Saturdays win was more of a "meh"

This change in attitude is a reflection of the change in respect. Gone are the days when the Bok side was feared. When the other team felt intimidated. When they ran onto the park 20 points down before the kick off.

Sure, the bok pride is wounded (yet again) and SA beat France three times already this year, but I reckon France will fancy their chances of a home win this Saturday after last weeks Bok fiasco.

No fear & no respect for you opponent with a healthy dose of self belief wins games.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I think that's a bit disrespectful to an Irish that has beaten NZ and England the past year, two teams on massive win streaks. They are clearly a good side, much better than any SA side for years.

 

[JohnKA]

I think that's a bit disrespectful to an Irish that has beaten NZ and England the past year, two teams on massive win streaks. They are clearly a good side, much better than any SA side for years.

I am sure the Irish would agree that was not their best performance and yet they beat the Boks , point i am trying to make is ,,,, the boks have fallen ,,,, the last coach that build a bok team was Jake white ,,, the rest after just used his has beens ,,, and that is why we are useless today ,,,, and that we have a useless coach .

 

[SomeOke]

I'll give Heineke Meyer his due, he may not have been a modern tactician in the same way as a Jones/Schmidt/Chieka, but he was a great man manager and motivator. We were still a team to be taken seriously under him. AC is neither, I'll be so annoyed if he isn't fired this year. I can live with us losing more games in the short term if that happens. I obviously love and support the Bokke and will never stop supporting them but in the short term I want to see some changes.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'll give Heineke Meyer his due, he may not have been a modern tactician in the same way as a Jones/Schmidt/Chieka, but he was a great man manager and motivator. We were still a team to be taken seriously under him. AC is neither, I'll be so annoyed if he isn't fired this year. I can live with us losing more games in the short term if that happens. I obviously love and support the Bokke and will never stop supporting them but in the short term I want to see some changes.

I think the call-up of Duane Vermeulen has been essentially the last throw of the dice for Allister Coetzee. AC went to a certain level of not selecting Duane, after they had a spat, and to call him up now, when all hope is already lost, tells me that not all is well in the state of Denmark.

1. Experience & Leadership
2. Players selected out of position

Duane is coming into the squad with only Etzebeth, Beast and Francois Louw having played more games for the bokke. That proves that AC's lack of selecting experienced guys are a problem that can't be circumvented anymore.

Duane is called up in place of PSDT. So that proves that AC has enough locks and feels the balance is out in the loose trio. Now while PSDT is a great player, having Louw back at loosehead, Siya at tighthead and Duane at 8 makes a lot more sense and gives a lot more balance to the pack. Why couldn't AC just as well have done that with Dan Du Preez???

 

[JohnKA]

I'll give Heineke Meyer his due, he may not have been a modern tactician in the same way as a Jones/Schmidt/Chieka, but he was a great man manager and motivator. We were still a team to be taken seriously under him. AC is neither, I'll be so annoyed if he isn't fired this year. I can live with us losing more games in the short term if that happens. I obviously love and support the Bokke and will never stop supporting them but in the short term I want to see some changes.

I l give HM credit for being for not being too bad ,,, but ,,, he should have started to build the next gen team

 

[Icemn]

but he was a great man manager and motivator. We were still a team to be taken seriously under him. AC is neither

he was?
You were?

For me both Heineke'n' and Toetie are incompetent/One-Dimensional/etc, only difference is the one is white and the other not

I've never been a fan of either Heineke'n' philosophy or Toetie's for that matter one is based on 'Stampkar' and the other is 'Defensive' and boring

SA rugby has lost its identity and SARU is throwing people at the problem... instead of deciding on a rugby philosophy that is true to SA, then you get the coach and players that is true to this Philosophy in order to make it a reality

 

[TRF_heineken]

I l give HM credit for being for not being too bad ,,, but ,,, he should have started to build the next gen team

Perhaps. But in all fairness he was trying, while still using the more experienced guys like Victor and Fourie Du Preez. I'm sure if they didn't sack him, he would have gone for a lot more youth in 2016. Like he did with the Bulls

 

[JohnKA]

Victor was over the hill ,,, FdP was still good but then you start him and give a rookie 30 min each game to start building for the future ,,, if i am correct he subbed FdP for Pienaar ?! / Hougaard maybe

Perhaps. But in all fairness he was trying, while still using the more experienced guys like Victor and Fourie Du Preez. I'm sure if they didn't sack him, he would have gone for a lot more youth in 2016. Like he did with the Bulls

 

[SomeOke]

Bottom line HM won 2/3 games.
Kriel and Serf were his centres and they still are.
Eben and PSTD were his locks and they still are.
He capped some new FH's but his choices were clearly Goosen and Pollard, his choice of FB was Willie, he capped that Cheetahs wing who has a bad heart and who's name escapes me.
He capped Marcel Coetze and Mahoje as incoming Bokke.

He stuck to experience where he could but I can't fault him for that.
For the most part he still cleaned up our NH opposition at least. Remember how disappointed we were with that one draw against England?
We never really got thumped like we have been recently we brought NZ close a few times and won once.

I'm not a Bulls supporter, I just think he was objectively a better coach.
Under him a loss like 57-0 or 38-3 would have been unprecedented.

I conceded he was no tactical mastermind, and honestly have no loyalty to the guy. The Bulls era of dominance was painful for me not joyful.

 

[AM_Bokke]

I think that there is more going on with selection and the make-up of the team than what meets the eye but I want to stick to the topic which is the upcoming game.

It will upset a lot of people, me included, to see DDA start but it appears to be what will happen. He has made very bad decisions in consecutive games. That alone is not good for him or the team. I personally think that Venter can play at inside center. He has the overall quality to play there in a national XV. That must also be what they are thinking by bringing both him and Am.

I don't think that this is the game to start Gelant. And defiantly not on the wing. Personally I think that Skosan played worse against against Ireland than Rhule did in any game that he played. I think that Skosan really cost us the game. I would start Rhule and Leyds and completely drop Skosan.

I think that Coatzee played well and should start with Gelant on the bench. Kriel should be dropped.

I think that Lood is very helpful in the lineout. I see his absence as a big factor in the Albany game. Our backline is not active at competing for the lineout like other teams and I don't see that changing with Vermuelen coming in so Lood should start again.

It seems clear that Vermuelen will start at 8 with Flouw and Kolisi as flanks but I would personally like to see Mahoje there. I think that he has played well in Pro14. Mahoje on the bench for sure.

Ireland was a big game for me with Jantjies and he flopped. Pollard to start now.

I am conflicted about scrumhalf. I still like Ross but I feel like he needs a break. But I don't want to make to many changes in the side either and I also think that he is a better matchup against France than Ireland and therefore should have a better game.

Overall, I think that this game will be quite competitive. Getting the backline to click in attack is a big issue for the Boks but overall my feeling is that this game will feel like the game in Perth from this year's rugby championship. A little bit hap-hazard but close and competitive.

 

[JohnKA]

Cornal Hendricks ,,, and fair point ,,, so now AC is playing with HM leftovers ?!

I dont even think Eben should start for the boks anymore either XD

Bottom line HM won 2/3 games.
Kriel and Serf were his centres and they still are.
Eben and PSTD were his locks and they still are.
He capped some new FH's but his choices were clearly Goosen and Pollard, his choice of FB was Willie, he capped that Cheetahs wing who has a bad heart and who's name escapes me.
He capped Marcel Coetze and Mahoje as incoming Bokke.

He stuck to experience where he could but I can't fault him for that.
For the most part he still cleaned up our NH opposition at least. Remember how disappointed we were with that one draw against England?
We never really got thumped like we have been recently we brought NZ close a few times and won once.

I'm not a Bulls supporter, I just think he was objectively a better coach.
Under him a loss like 57-0 or 38-3 would have been unprecedented.

I conceded he was no tactical mastermind, and honestly have no loyalty to the guy. The Bulls era of dominance was painful for me not joyful.

 

[AM_Bokke]

Cornal Hendricks ,,, and fair point ,,, so now AC is playing with HM leftovers ?!

I dont even think Eben should start for the boks anymore either XD

Yeah, Eben...

I think that he is great and a huge part of the Boks team, but if the Boks were any other kind of business and he was any other kind of employee then I would say that he needs a vacation.

I think that Eben's mood / body language / performance is one of the strongest arguments against AC. He is a player to watch very closely over the next few games.

 

[SomeOke]

Eben is world class, but not a captain. Very foolish choice. Reminds me of Strauss where AC picked someone with caps but no natural leadership or charisma.

Who's going to reign in Eben's wild streak when he's captain anyway? To be fair Whitley is supposed to be captain, but I feel like someone like Kolisi has more charisma, and really steps up when in a leadership role. When we get behind I just see Eben borderline sulking.

For me leadership is shown in two ways; when a team is behind and how they fight back, and in the last 20 or so minutes when everyone is tired, I've seen nothing like that from this Bok team.

 

[AM_Bokke]

Eben is world class, but not a captain. Very foolish choice. Reminds me of Strauss where AC picked someone with caps but no natural leadership or charisma.

Who's going to reign in Eben's wild streak when he's captain anyway? To be fair Whitley is supposed to be captain, but I feel like someone like Kolisi has more charisma, and really steps up when in a leadership role. When we get behind I just see Eben borderline sulking.

For me leadership is shown in two ways; when a team is behind and how they fight back, and in the last 20 or so minutes when everyone is tired, I've seen nothing like that from this Bok team.

Some of it might be that Eben is an 80 minute player every game. Kolisi has not played 80 minutes every game.

It's interesting that at this time last year some thought that Lambie would be the captain. I understand that he is not fit this season but he is also not involved at all having gotten out of his Bok contract and moved to France.

To me it's an example of the turmoil that SA Rugby is in with regards player management. The environment is just very unstable.