[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Wales vs. South Africa (26/11/2016)

[MikeTheNative]

I actually felt sorry for Cuthbert, it was clearly not his day but Howley let him stay on to suffer more. He is playing like the out of form and struggling for confidence player that he is at the moment. He really needs a good run at regional level and get some confidence back before even getting looked at for the Wales squad, I think this may break him the way it keeps going. He really looked distraught when he knocked on from that kick. At the start of the series I criticised Francis for not being an international standard player but at the moment I don't think lee is either, he hasn't looked good at all so far. But on the other side of the scrum I've been impressed with Nicky Smith every time he has played, he deserves the start on Saturday. I think that Roberts is simply not quick enough to be an international centre anymore, a number of centres now aren't huge hulking beasts, but some are quick and have good feet. Do any of our centres weigh less than 16st? My team would be L Williams, L Halfpenny, J Davies, S Williams, North, S Davies, G Davies, N Smith, Owens/Baldwin, Francis, Jones, Charteris, Moriaty, Tipruic, Faletau. Neither hooker has impressed really so I'm not too fussed who starts. Going for the most attacking back row and just to out pace the massive and slow SA pack. But like we are ever going to play that way.

 

[Bluemoon]

I actually felt sorry for Cuthbert, it was clearly not his day but Howley let him stay on to suffer more. He is playing like the out of form and struggling for confidence player that he is at the moment. He really needs a good run at regional level and get some confidence back before even getting looked at for the Wales squad, I think this may break him the way it keeps going. He really looked distraught when he knocked on from that kick. At the start of the series I criticised Francis for not being an international standard player but at the moment I don't think lee is either, he hasn't looked good at all so far. But on the other side of the scrum I've been impressed with Nicky Smith every time he has played, he deserves the start on Saturday. I think that Roberts is simply not quick enough to be an international centre anymore, a number of centres now aren't huge hulking beasts, but some are quick and have good feet. Do any of our centres weigh less than 16st? My team would be L Williams, L Halfpenny, J Davies, S Williams, North, S Davies, G Davies, N Smith, Owens/Baldwin, Francis, Jones, Charteris, Moriaty, Tipruic, Faletau. Neither hooker has impressed really so I'm not too fussed who starts. Going for the most attacking back row and just to out pace the massive and slow SA pack. But like we are ever going to play that way.

If there was ever a candidate for a sports psychologist, I think Alex is now one, that is for sure. You know, watching him at Cardiff and for Wales, I genuinely think he's trying everything to get his form back and he is working hard, but now it's become as much a psychological drop as it is a form one.

There are plenty of reasons as to why Cuthbert form has suffered. I've heard enough stories that partying extremely hard at the Cardiff student union may have been one of them.

I think you have hit the nail on the head though Mike. You can't blame the man but the coaches who are putting him there. His form has been the same at Cardiff so the Wales management cannot be surprised.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Did anyone see Gareth Thomas on scrum V? Was very critical of the way the team played and not giving Giles a go. But refused to criticise Howley because he hasn't had enough time with the team. I'm also a bit confused how Shaun Edwards has managed to get away with so little criticism, even if their attack was limited Wales still used to be great in defence. They look like they are in disarray at the moment, as Australia showed get the ball wide with some dummy runners and Wales open up way too easily.

 

[AzaMatt]

Did anyone see Gareth Thomas on scrum V? Was very critical of the way the team played and not giving Giles a go. But refused to criticise Howley because he hasn't had enough time with the team. I'm also a bit confused how Shaun Edwards has managed to get away with so little criticism, even if their attack was limited Wales still used to be great in defence. They look like they are in disarray at the moment, as Australia showed get the ball wide with some dummy runners and Wales open up way too easily.

im fed up of pundits and edwards saying we are poor cause we try to play a more expansive style of rugby. that shouldnt affect our defence. your defencive patterns shouldnt change based on how you attack when you have the ball. its a silly statement

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'm pretty sure that Shane Williams said we should keep things tight against SA and beat them in an arm wrestle. Surely we can't play that way? I really don't think we are going to see Giles get a chance now as I imagine however is dropped for centre out Roberts and Williams will be on the bench, it will be a real shame.

 

[AzaMatt]

I'm pretty sure that Shane Williams said we should keep things tight against SA and beat them in an arm wrestle. Surely we can't play that way? I really don't think we are going to see Giles get a chance now as I imagine however is dropped for centre out Roberts and Williams will be on the bench, it will be a real shame.

a pretty radical idea but could work in the long run would be to have north at 13 and then a pacey wing outside him. north to beat the first man in the outside channel and then a finisher to finish it off. im not suggesting we do this against the boks but im sure gats and co said they see north as a centre in the future, hed get more touches as well at 13

 

[MikeTheNative]

a pretty radical idea but could work in the long run would be to have north at 13 and then a pacey wing outside him. north to beat the first man in the outside channel and then a finisher to finish it off. im not suggesting we do this against the boks but im sure gats and co said they see north as a centre in the future, hed get more touches as well at 13

Not sure about his passing to be honest but I think they should maybe give him a go there. I'm worried about the centre for Wales in the next few years, have we got any up and coming talent? Tyler Morgan seems to be around the squad a lot but is injured half the time. I wonder if any one will give Owen Williams an offer to come back? A 2nd distrubuter would be handy to have, like they would use it anyway lol.

 

[Hendo74]

The most frustrating thing for me was the lack of quick ball from Gareth Davies in the 2nd half. That simply has to change against SA.

Maybe if Cuthbert had held on to that pass in the first half things might have turned out rather differently (for him, the team and the scoreline) but, as hard as he seems to be working, it just ain't happening for him. Presumably North & 1/2p on the wings from now on.

Nicky Smith is really looking the part. I can't decide who I'd rather see in the back row - might it be worth leaving Faletau out altogether, let him get back to 100% for the 6N? At least there are options with Lydiate/Moriarty/Tips/Warbs/King.

I suspect the starting XV will be based on physicality though, so it wouldn't suprise me if the likes of Tips and Scott Williams are on the bench.

 

[MojoPin]

I actually felt sorry for Cuthbert, it was clearly not his day but Howley let him stay on to suffer more. He is playing like the out of form and struggling for confidence player that he is at the moment. He really needs a good run at regional level and get some confidence back before even getting looked at for the Wales squad, I think this may break him the way it keeps going. He really looked distraught when he knocked on from that kick. At the start of the series I criticised Francis for not being an international standard player but at the moment I don't think lee is either, he hasn't looked good at all so far. But on the other side of the scrum I've been impressed with Nicky Smith every time he has played, he deserves the start on Saturday. I think that Roberts is simply not quick enough to be an international centre anymore, a number of centres now aren't huge hulking beasts, but some are quick and have good feet. Do any of our centres weigh less than 16st? My team would be L Williams, L Halfpenny, J Davies, S Williams, North, S Davies, G Davies, N Smith, Owens/Baldwin, Francis, Jones, Charteris, Moriaty, Tipruic, Faletau. Neither hooker has impressed really so I'm not too fussed who starts. Going for the most attacking back row and just to out pace the massive and slow SA pack. But like we are ever going to play that way.

Well said re. Cuthbert. I watched the game with my family and every one of them were calling for his head, pouncing on every little thing he did. Yet stay completely quiet when one of their favourites makes a mistake, like Liam Williams getting carded. The guy looked utterly devastated when he dropped that ball, which is disappointing to see as he was beginning to show signs of quietly returning to form for the Blues. He's been rushed back too early and now he'll just regress again.

Agreed with your team selection too, but have a horrible feeling that Tipuric may end up on the bench along with Scott Williams. Reckon we'll see Roberts, Biggar, Warburton and maybe even Lydiate starting. Warburton I can see the case for, and at least he's playing well, but Moriarty would be much better suited to this game and if he's not playing 8 then he really should be in at 6. For the 6N I'd like to see Sam Parry come into the squad, looking really good for the Ospreys and Kristian Dacey isn't cutting it as the third option at the moment, IMO. Give him a run in the second half against Italy and see how he goes.

 

[Ospervat]

Well I don't want us to lose anymore. I think AC has already put the final nail in his own coffin.

What I think must happen is that we give our young guys a go. Let Du Preez and Janse Van Rensburg and Sergeal get a run. Let the team have some fun and see what happens. Nothing worse can happen anymore as everyone now expects that we will lose this match, the question is by what margin.

So I say, give the youngsters a go, and see what happens. Who knows, we might just beat them.

I would like nothing more than to see the youngsters get a run. No more half baked plans from AC. Throw caution to the wind and play to their instincts. They have nothing to lose anymore.

Problem I see with this is that if SA win then all those SARU clown's vanities will get the better of them claim the credit and spin the victory as a way to keep them all on.

Springbok supporters are ultimately dealing with state controlled absolutism. These power mongers just need one sniff of hope to keep their gravy train running.

As hard as it is to accept I honestly believe the best result for SA Rugby in the long term is a loss.

The thing is I think if we beat Wales, AC will find a way to convince people that things are going to start to change. With that he might keep his job.

I do agree that our younger players should get a shot. I have said it back then that the team that played against the Barbarians have been our best team this tour. Unfortunately I do not think AC will do it. He is going to probably stick to the same team with 1 or 2 changes.

I tend to agree with this. AC is a thick skinned, ignorant and arrogant creature of habit and doesn't have the cojones or imagination to make wholesale changes.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Agreed with your team selection too, but have a horrible feeling that Tipuric may end up on the bench along with Scott Williams. Reckon we'll see Roberts, Biggar, Warburton and maybe even Lydiate starting. Warburton I can see the case for, and at least he's playing well, but Moriarty would be much better suited to this game and if he's not playing 8 then he really should be in at 6. For the 6N I'd like to see Sam Parry come into the squad, looking really good for the Ospreys and Kristian Dacey isn't cutting it as the third option at the moment, IMO. Give him a run in the second half against Italy and see how he goes.

I agree about Sam Parry, he has to be in the squad for the 6 nations and he would be my starting hooker at the moment. I'm not too bothered about Warburton starting over Tipuric but surely there is no way that Roberts and Lydiate can start, not sure how they can justify those two selections.

 

[MojoPin]

I'm not too bothered about Warburton starting over Tipuric but surely there is no way that Roberts and Lydiate can start, not sure how they can justify those two selections.

Ordinarily I'd agree, but stranger things have happened and the management seem to have lost all sense lately. We'll find out on Thursday I guess, fingers crossed.

 

[Hendo74]

Adventurous 6-15:-

6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau / Moriarty
9. G Davies
10. S Davies
11. North
12. S Williams
13. J Davies
14. 1/2 p
15. L Williams

Less adventurous (and more likely?) 6-15:-

6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Faletau / Moriarty
9. G Davies
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. J Davies
14. 1/2p
15. L Williams

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'm not sure why I keep getting my hopes that Wales will play this open and expansive game, it's not going to happen this week and I doubt it will for the 6 Nations. Feels like all I post is negative comments lol. After questions about Wales' attendance it was good to see an almost full house Saturday, just goes to show that when prices are stupidly high the Welsh public will come.

 

[AzaMatt]

Well said re. Cuthbert. I watched the game with my family and every one of them were calling for his head, pouncing on every little thing he did. Yet stay completely quiet when one of their favourites makes a mistake, like Liam Williams getting carded.

i see the point your trying to make however liam williams had to make that decision as cuthbert just leisurely jogged back with no attempt to subtly obstruct the player or get to the ball. theres no way anyone can say he was using his full pace. i feel for the guy as well but being brutally honest, he just is not good enough anymore. once he starts scoring for fun with the blues he can then come back. too much faith has been placed in his previous form, hes the new priestland. id love nothing more than cuthbert tearing up the rugby field again but it doesnt look like its going to happen anytime soon.

 

[MojoPin]

i see the point your trying to make however liam williams had to make that decision as cuthbert just leisurely jogged back with no attempt to subtly obstruct the player or get to the ball. theres no way anyone can say he was using his full pace. i feel for the guy as well but being brutally honest, he just is not good enough anymore. once he starts scoring for fun with the blues he can then come back. too much faith has been placed in his previous form, hes the new priestland. id love nothing more than cuthbert tearing up the rugby field again but it doesnt look like its going to happen anytime soon.

Yes you're quite right, he was put in a bad position, but he still knew what he was doing and left his team stranded for 10 minutes - could have been a lot worse than a single try.

I do agree Cuthbert isn't good enough, and absolutely shouldn't have been called into the team. He was (slowly) getting better at the Blues so he should have been left to do that and maybe one day he would have got called up. Pointing out Liam Williams wasn't meant to excuse him, but shows how vilified he is in the Welsh public's mind. Certainly there were other players that made mistakes, was just an easy example of a player that some people refuse to crticize even when he makes mistakes.

 

[SomeOke]

Who would the bokke among us like to see in charge?

Nick Mallet, but he won't take the job, he's enjoying his comfy lifestyle of being our sports pundit.

Failing that a NZ'er, bugger our pride it's time for a change. We need to realize that the game has changed, we can keep our "traditional" strengths AND play the game that we see in front of us.
Gone are the days when England or NZ can be bullied by kicking to their back three or dominating them up front. This is my extremely easy plan of getting SA back to a top 2 or 3 side.

1. Fire everyone.
2. Put any NZ with a decent record in charge.
3. Don't interfere with him AT ALL.

It's basically what England did after all, I challenge anyone to tell me this wouldn't work.
Not going to happen however as the political element in our rugby isn't just going to disappear.

Unfortunately in order to be first in the world we would need to do all of the above AND get our Super Rugby unions playing together for the benefit of the Bokke like the Kiwi sides AND somehow keep our players in South Africa but that is even less likely.

I'd settle for firing AC, and being a fairly good side that can challenge anyone again.

 

[Ospervat]

Graham Henry if he ever decided to make a comeback and take on one last impossible challenge. He has the gravitas to tell whoever to go to hell in a way that they actually look forward to the trip.

An undisputed track record and quite probably the brains behind the rising Pumas success over the past 5 years.

If not as head coach at the very least bring him in as the puppet master.

 

[AzaMatt]

this is probably the only game where both sets of supporters want their team to lose! haha

 

[valley commando]

I know this wrong to say as a Springbok supporter, but I seriously want Wales to beat us in this match. We need to lose here to have any hope of getting new coaches.

I am so sick the fact that I am expecting us to lose every match and the worst part is I am not even getting upset anymore. I laughed when I saw the results against Italy.

AC has a win percentage of 36% with a team that was second in the world not long ago...

If Howler doesn't pick Sam D, Keelan G, Tips, Moriarty and Scott Williams then I hope we get stuffed and we get a proper backs/attack coach (Stephen Jones would be perfect) as a result that way we stand half a chance of not being humiliated come 6 Nations time

- - - Updated - - -

What do we think Wales backrow will be? Faletau will start 8, so will it be Warbuton 6 and Tipiruc 7 or Moriaty 6 and Warbuton 7?

It has to be Warbs Moriarty and Tips, Falatau will be on the bench apparently.

- - - Updated - - -

Did anyone see Gareth Thomas on scrum V? Was very critical of the way the team played and not giving Giles a go. But refused to criticise Howley because he hasn't had enough time with the team. I'm also a bit confused how Shaun Edwards has managed to get away with so little criticism, even if their attack was limited Wales still used to be great in defence. They look like they are in disarray at the moment, as Australia showed get the ball wide with some dummy runners and Wales open up way too easily.

Not had long with the team is ******** he's been there for the last hundred years, how did he get assistant coach job anyway, shouldn't a coach entering the National set up have had at least a couple of seasons at club level ?