[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Wales vs. South Africa (26/11/2016)

[dullonien]

What do we think Wales backrow will be? Faletau will start 8, so will it be Warbuton 6 and Tipiruc 7 or Moriaty 6 and Warbuton 7?

Can't see Faletau starting after so little rugby. Think we'll see him on the bench with Warbs, Tips and Moriarty starting, well if Howley has any sense that is, which is certainly up for debate!

I think you are right this is an important selection. I've said it a few times here, but Tips has really struggled with the physicality of the breakdown at the international level. What Tips does bring is his outstanding skills in attack and his ability to link the forwards and the backs at crucial times. He has always been a fantastic impact player form the bench because he causes havoc when forwards are starting to tire. I'm not against starting him, but you have to play Warburton at 6 as he is so quick to clear out and is looking good at 6 at the moment.

We've been picking based on defensive qualities for too long now. Tips is probably the most creative, naturally gifted & visionary player in the Wales squad (Giles as well probably), so I'd start him every day of the week, and build a backrow/pack around him. If he does lack physicality (not totally convinced by that), then compliment him in the backrow with players who can fulfill that physical role, Moriarty at 6 in the long term maybe?

Not sure about his passing to be honest but I think they should maybe give him a go there. I'm worried about the centre for Wales in the next few years, have we got any up and coming talent? Tyler Morgan seems to be around the squad a lot but is injured half the time. I wonder if any one will give Owen Williams an offer to come back? A 2nd distrubuter would be handy to have, like they would use it anyway lol.

Not as if JD2 has much of a passing game either!

Well said re. Cuthbert. I watched the game with my family and every one of them were calling for his head, pouncing on every little thing he did. Yet stay completely quiet when one of their favourites makes a mistake, like Liam Williams getting carded. The guy looked utterly devastated when he dropped that ball, which is disappointing to see as he was beginning to show signs of quietly returning to form for the Blues. He's been rushed back too early and now he'll just regress again.

Sorry, but I don't think Liam Williams should be criticized for that. Cuthbert's incompetence put Williams in an impossible situation, so he decided that the yellow card was worth saving a likely try. Remember Martyn Williams tripping a french player during one of grand slam campaigns to save a try. Cynical, but occasionally in the heat of the moment it maybe feels like the right thing to do.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Adventurous 6-15:-

6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau / Moriarty
9. G Davies
10. S Davies
11. North
12. S Williams
13. J Davies
14. 1/2 p
15. L Williams

Your more adventurous team would be a commentary nightmare. Davies, passes to Davies and out to Williams who then kicks long for Williams and Davies to chase

 

[profitius]

im fed up of pundits and edwards saying we are poor cause we try to play a more expansive style of rugby. that shouldnt affect our defence. your defencive patterns shouldnt change based on how you attack when you have the ball. its a silly statement

They have a point. If youre going to play more risky attacking rugby there's a greater chance for the opposition to counter attack.


And another point on that. I see calls for Sam Davies, Keegan Giles etc to be playing. If Giles did replace Cuthbert then from a defensive point of view it's a 12st winger replacing a 16.5st winger.


That's the problem Wales find themselves in at the moment. Their success under Gatland was based on defence but thats not as effective anymore. Now the public want to see more attacking rugby but they'll have to pick smaller players for that.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Why is Cuthbert still in the squad?
Surely his form isn't resurrectible?

 

[Every Time Ref]

Why is Cuthbert still in the squad?
Surely his form isn't resurrectible?

I would say he has compromising pictures of Howley with Gatland's wife, but honestly I don't think he has the smarts to blackmail someone.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Rooting for a Wales win, but i won't be surprised if the Boks win.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I want the Boks to win but I also want AC gone.

If AC stays I feel we are going to have to accept and adapt to his priorities and 'style' as coach. Though I would be all for us developing our game AC is not the man to do it, even less so than Meyer was. The best team AC could pick would be one to play a narrow game and play it well. That would mean getting Bismarck, Vermeulen, Frans Steyn etc etc back and looking to strangle opposition. getting our best kickers in there (whomever that might be) as well as an actual fetcher.

Picking youth and picking 'expansive/creative' players won't fix anything if the structures aren't riht and we've seen promising players in that mold go to poo under AC's structures; Taute and especially Jantjies at the Stormers spring to mind. So we are stuck in a time warp and either have to pick a 2007-esque squad to match the coach or go with the best available players we have and hope they can make something work even with one arm tied.

As for who I'd like to see coach the Bokke;

1 Eddie Jones (if he can drop the Stormers he can drop England for 'a challenge'- even let him come over after 2017 when England gets the new record win streak)
2 Nick Mallett - might not be in the loop and as sharp as at his best one would expect but he knows SA rugby, the ins and outs, our strengths and challenges
3 Robbie Deans - I think Aussie threw away a brilliant coach
4 Johann Ackermann - probably the most realistic of my picks (only realistic?) but he has stated he wants to achieve his goals with the Lions first. Hopefully a Lions SR ***le 2017 and taking over from AC with two years to work towards the next RWC.

 

[BakkiesBokke]

I want the Boks to win as we need the ranking points ahead of May's seeding for the 2019 RWC. That said, I also want Coetzee gone for definite.

 

[Sotavalta]

So what would the South Africans choose between the following two options? I know it might not play out like this but I am just interested to see what people would choose.

1. The Springboks lose against Wales and AC gets replaced by someone else. But we drop in the rankings because of the loss (Worse position for May's seeding).

2. We win Wales and we get more rank points. So we are in a better position for May's seeding, but AC keeps his job.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I want the Boks to win as we need the ranking points ahead of May's seeding for the 2019 RWC. That said, I also want Coetzee gone for definite.

Might make for an interesting RWC though ala 2015's Pool of death.

So what would the South Africans choose between the following two options? I know it might not play out like this but I am just interested to see what people would choose.

1. The Springboks lose against Wales and AC gets replaced by someone else. But we drop in the rankings because of the loss (Worse position for May's seeding).

2. We win Wales and we get more rank points. So we are in a better position for May's seeding, but AC keeps his job.

AC gone first and foremost. As for 2019 you never know what srt of form your team or those in your pool might be in and if you want to challenge for the ***le you are going to come under pressure in any case so why not from the pool stages.

We probably won't drop below 8th so if we go up against France or Wales or Ireland or whichever team as seed 2 and they seed 1 rather than the other way around it makes little difference.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Where the bejesus is Pollard?
Has he given up rugby?

 

[Sotavalta]

Where the bejesus is Pollard?
Has he given up rugby?

He is injured. But good news came this week saying that he is going to start training with the Bulls again in January 2017.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Where the bejesus is Pollard?
Has he given up rugby?

He almost had to give up on rugby...

He had a very bad knee ligament injury during training in preparation for the Super Rugby Season last year December. Then he got the operation and when he was just declared fit after rehabilitation, he injured his shoulder. Again he had to get an operation. The operation was successful, but then the shoulder's wound got infected, to such an extent that they had to make a call on perhaps amputating his entire right arm. Luckily the medicine kicked in just in time, and the infection went away. But that inevitably lead to his extended lay-off period.

But like my fellow saffas have mentioned, he returned to full training last Saturday with the Bulls, and will hopefully be back in 2017 in the green and gold. Along with Jan Serfontein...

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I thought tactically SA looked better against Italy, mixing counter attacking running rugby with kicking when appropriate. They messed up refusing penalty kick points and going for rolling mauls (a strength of both Italian Pro12 clubs). But the rolling maul might work against a Wales that seems to be in transition with the forward pack.

SA seem to have morale issues. They started fired up against Italy, but just sank as the game went on and seemed to be disheartened at not converting territory into points. They looked like they'd thrown in the towel on about 55mins with a bizarre miss pass by Combrink that went about a metre behind two teammates and straight out of bounds. If the players decide this is a chance to get rid of AC then the talented Welsh backs will oblige with a coup de grace, regardless of Howleys possible limitations. It could be a very strange game all round.

 

[dullonien]

And another point on that. I see calls for Sam Davies, Keegan Giles etc to be playing. If Giles did replace Cuthbert then from a defensive point of view it's a 12st winger replacing a 16.5st winger.


That's the problem Wales find themselves in at the moment. Their success under Gatland was based on defence but thats not as effective anymore. Now the public want to see more attacking rugby but they'll have to pick smaller players for that.

This would hold more credibility if you weren't highlighting Cuthbert's size as an asset in defense!

Cuthbert must be one of the worst defensive players playing international rugby. He doesn't necessarily fall off tackles, but what he does do is get completely lost in his defensive role, especially if the opposition mix things up against him. You could see him literally stop when Japan chipped the ball over his head, neither attacking the ball, or getting in position to tackle the catcher, instead he get's himself caught between the two which is the worst possible thing to do as it takes him out of the equation entirely.

He also doesn't appear to keep track of what his opposition number is doing, too easily getting needlessly sucked in defensively, allowing his opposition space on the outside. North is guilty of this as well, and it's a little infuriating that it happens time after time. Other times Cuthbert will over commit to situations which are already in hand. What was he thinking in the lead up to Japan's third try? The ball carrier was in the process of being tackled over the touchline, and what does Cuthbert do? Get in position to prevent the inside offload? Get in position to tackle the supporting player if the inside offload is made? No he goes in with a little pathetic push, which does absolutely nothing but leave the supporting player free to receive the offload! Idiot!

Honestly, from what I've seen Giles doesn't suffer from the same defensive issues. He was caught out once or twice v Munster a few weeks back with a couple of cross-field kicks, but he looks like the kind of player who'll learn from that. Otherwise he's shown to be rather tenacious in defense. There's a chance he could get shown up at international level, but Cuthbert is guaranteed to be shown up, so what's there to lose?

 

[valley commando]

WOL are reporting Falatau may start at the expense of Tipuric, how ****ing short sighted is that, surely if he is fit he would play instead of warburton or perhaps Moriarty, there is no chance of playing a more attack minded game if Tips doesn't play.
Lets see if Howler has any vision, I suspect not.

- - - Updated - - -

Blame the ****ing coach who picked him, I like one or two others are starting to feel sorry for Cuthbert. Initially I thought he must have had something on Howley, but I now realise that Howley must despise the player to put him through what amounts to weekly torture in public. Howley may be the worst man manager since Clive Woodward

- - - Updated - - -

Re K G instead of Cuthbert -:At the minute its not 12st instead of 16.5st its more like a porsche 911 for a transit van, or a cheetah for a bison.

 

[dullonien]

Blame the ****ing coach who picked him, I like one or two others are starting to feel sorry for Cuthbert. Initially I thought he must have had something on Howley, but I now realise that Howley must despise the player to put him through what amounts to weekly torture in public. Howley may be the worst man manager since Clive Woodward.

Certainly. I also feel very sorry for the lad. It is very unfair for Howley (and Gatland) to continue picking him despite his lack of form and confidence. I can understand it must be difficult to refuse the invitation, potentially opening up question marks about his loyalty and desire to play for Wales; but if he were honest, I'm sure the management and the public would understand. No-one has got a gun to his head, and he's a grown man who should put the team first if he's really not in the correct place mentally.

He's also a pro athlete, who should be capable of taking some responsibility and working on his weaknesses. He doesn't even switch the ball to the correct arm in order to fend when carrying the ball / going for the corner. If a player can't learn such a basic skill after 4/5 years of being a professional player then what hope is there?

 

[Ospreylian]

Haven't read the rest of the thread so apologies if someone has already suggested this exact same team, but here is my XV for the weekend:

Smith, Baldwin, Francis, Charteris, AWJ, King, Tipuric, Moriarty; G Davies, S Davies, Giles, S Williams, J Davies, Halfpenny, L Williams

Bench: Jenkins, Owens, Lee, Ball, Warburton, T Williams, Biggar, North

Obviously nothing like the team we will see, but I think you could argue this is our most in-form team in terms of selection.

I was hugely impressed with Nicky Smith against Japan, one of the only players who showed an ounce of wanting to get over the gain line. Jenkins is world class, but why waste the opportunity to give Smith a real go at international level with the Six Nations looming; and it is looming ominously for Wales at the moment. Baldwin was also one of the stand out performers and gave the most solid argument for a selection rethink. He is our most solid option at the minute at hooker. Francis has impressed me in the scrum, Lee has fallen off the radar a bit.

James King is another player that thoroughly deserves some credit. He's been performing consistently for the Ospreys with a couple of man-of-the-match performances for the Ospreys recently, and he, like many other unlucky squad players (*cough* Giles *end cough*), really needs to be given some international game time. Tipuric is a no-brainer, although I am incredibly worried with the reports today that Howley is considering leaving him out. Moriarty provides the bulk of the ball-carrying we so desperately need in our game right now.

Sam Davies, again, deserves a chance to prove himself, and what better way than against a southern hemi big three team (even if SA are misfiring at the moment). He might bring the attacking line forward a bit and cause more havoc. I'm still a Biggar fan, but given the shocker Anscombe had on the weekend Wales really need to solidify some depth at 10 quickly before February. Tomos Williams on the bench for me ahead of Lloyd, who was just so slow from the rucks and didn't control the game at all. Most of the possession he had was when his foot was locked to the stationary ball on the floor.

Giles has to have a go. What was the point of bringing him in to the squad otherwise? I was flabbergasted he wasn't brought on after half time against Japan. Cuthbert is history, and has been for a long time. The single most frustrating recurrent selection decision I have ever witnessed in rugby. North isn't producing the goods either at the moment, so why not give such an in-form and exciting attacking talent a chance? Wales have nothing to lose in my eyes.

I don't see the big selection calls as a risk. Some may argue that putting Giles on the wing is a defensive risk, but how is it any more of a risk than having lumbering Cuthbert out there?

 

[The Jones Boy]

Wow, thats a rough comeback trail for Pollard the poor bugger.

This weekend I'd like to see Wales lift a gear. I know it's in there somewhere.
A stronger performance in the forwards and let the backs run.
Cuthbert has to be out and some young flyers need to be given a run. Wales has boatloads of talent but under Gatland and Howley they don't seem to get much of a run.

 

[JohnKA]

He almost had to give up on rugby...

He had a very bad knee ligament injury during training in preparation for the Super Rugby Season last year December. Then he got the operation and when he was just declared fit after rehabilitation, he injured his shoulder. Again he had to get an operation. The operation was successful, but then the shoulder's wound got infected, to such an extent that they had to make a call on perhaps amputating his entire right arm. Luckily the medicine kicked in just in time, and the infection went away. But that inevitably lead to his extended lay-off period.

But like my fellow saffas have mentioned, he returned to full training last Saturday with the Bulls, and will hopefully be back in 2017 in the green and gold. Along with Jan Serfontein...

Yes hope to see him back with the bokke @10 , huge Lambie fan but he is just not cutting it ATM ,Lambie played very flat at the start career now he is bloody deeper than morne steyn ....