[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (19/11/2016)

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I saw his shoulder accelerating upwards in the tackle. I don't know why you're hung up on intent. You don't know what Cane was thinking, neither do i. All i can tell you is a high shoulder in the face of an opponent is borderline red card. Lads here don't seem to know the laws of the game too well. Whether Cane intended to do damage or not is irrelevant to the decision. Its borderline red card stuff whether he meant it or not. If you really want me to speculate on intent though....taken in isolation i give Cane the benefit of the doubt. It happened fast no question. But Coles smashed Murray in the face with a shoulder and swinging arm, Dagg smashed Stander in the face with a shoulder and arms by his side, Feki and Cane etc, i've watched the game once...there were more. Thats called a pattern of behaviour mate. Cynical, clumsy, thuggish, you decide. Doesn't make me feel better about losing. Just dogmatically arguing the point at this stage truth be known.

NZ'ers are stoic when they want to be. When they felt aggrieved in 2007 they sent Wayne Barnes death threats. C'est la vie.

show me where in the lawbook or in a GMG from any union where a shoulder to the face is an automatic red card

additionally, i don't think henshaw was ducking anything so i don't get that argument from the kiwis

to me, cane's tackle is no where near as bad as when a player is low and a guy comes in and hits their head with their shoulder, in this case the only thing you are going to hit is the head so that's on you for attempting the tackle

cane just missed his target, he had a shoulder and head in front of him and he was just too high

 

[Larksea]

the initial contact, that caused the injury was clearly without a doubt head on head. They made almost simultaneous head to head and shoulder to shoulder contact. Yes Canes shoulder was higher than Henshaw's but the significant contact was still head on head.

head on head is usually the worst kind of contact in terms of injuries. From my experience watching & playing rugby head on head and when a player gets his head in a bad position when attempting a tackle is what usually results in a player being stretchered off.

Fekitoa's tackle looked bad live but the replays show that started on the shoulder and rode up to the neck and wasn't nearly as bad as it looked. I think there were shots from both sides that didn't get picked up that were worse. Stretched grabs like that just look dramatic. Anyone whose played rugby has been a victim of those, I don't remember them ever hurting unless the tackler uses a close fist and the contact becomes more of a strike.

In fact its very similar to the contact Sexton made on Barrett. Which was also obviously high.

I don't disagree with the yellow card though because at that point the AB's deserved one for repeated penalties.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I felt aggrieved in 2007 and I didn't send anything to anyone.
I turned my phone off and died for a few weeks until the dust had settled and i still lament the departure of Carl Hayman from the AB's long before his time. That was a great team undone by a great French performance.
I'll happily give you Fekitoa, lynch him, beyond that I'm not convinced.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

THIS!!

Anyone arguing that the referee favoured the All Blacks when they got TWO yellow cards and had a 4-16 penalty count against them is spending too much time spanking the monkey!

I thought Ireland got away with a lot of stuff too, including

- The intentional knock forward of a pass from Barrett to Dagg that would have had Dagg in under the posts. (arguing that it was a genuine attempt to intercept is bollocks. The player intentionally batted the ball forward. It was near identical to the Sean Maitland Yellow card in the RWC)

- The head high tackle and neck roll by Sexton went unpunished.

- I think there was a crafty foot trip behind a ruck as well that went unnoticed.

The penalty and yellow card count doesn't wash at all to see if a ref favoured either side. The notable mistakes, of the countless mistakes made, were Cane getting away without a card, Fekitoa only seeing yellow, Smith's card, Sexton avoiding a yellow and there's arguments to be made for Trimble getting a card for the knock on although I think that was a genuine attempt from memory, Ireland were unlucky not to get a penalty try at one of the scrums where NZ must have committed every possible infringement as Ireland were going towards the line and Dagg's hit on Stander should have been looked at too. NZ committed more infringements and got yellow cards because of that not because tge ref favoured either side.

I don't think Joe will be completely ****** off in hindsight that NZ should have played the game with 14, arguably 13, men for long periods because we'll have learnt more going forward from that test than possibly winning a game due to numerical advantage.

Anyway, things are getting salty enough in here and there's some arguments being made based purely on opinion rather than analysing the laws of the game so I think we need to calm down a bit. We saw one of the greatest defensive performances of all time yesterday and that's what won the game, the ifs and buts are irrelevant now apart from the citings which will be dealt with soon. I expect two short term suspensions.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Once again, a fair call Alpha.

 

[james5000]

The penalty and yellow card count doesn't wash at all to see if a ref favoured either side. The notable mistakes, of the countless mistakes made, were Cane getting away without a card, Fekitoa only seeing yellow, Smith's card, Sexton avoiding a yellow and there's arguments to be made for Trimble getting a card for the knock on although I think that was a genuine attempt from memory, Ireland were unlucky not to get a penalty try at one of the scrums where NZ must have committed every possible infringement as Ireland were going towards the line and Dagg's hit on Stander should have been looked at too. NZ committed more infringements and got yellow cards because of that not because tge ref favoured either side.

I don't think Joe will be completely ****** off in hindsight that NZ should have played the game with 14, arguably 13, men for long periods because we'll have learnt more going forward from that test than possibly winning a game due to numerical advantage.

Anyway, things are getting salty enough in here and there's some arguments being made based purely on opinion rather than analysing the laws of the game so I think we need to calm down a bit. We saw one of the greatest defensive performances of all time yesterday and that's what won the game, the ifs and buts are irrelevant now apart from the citings which will be dealt with soon. I expect two short term suspensions.

I doubt that it was that legendary tbh, just another day at the office

 

[corny]

show me where in the lawbook or in a GMG from any union where a shoulder to the face is an automatic red card

I'm not going to use google for you but simple logic for you. Citing cases are instances where the Commissioner feels the act warranted a red card....Cane was cited.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Wayne Barnes death threats. C'est la vie.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but didn't All Black fans cop some serious grief from the rest of the world over that. - "Bad losers", "Get over it", "You lost move on" etc etc.

If Irishmen are upset about this game, then I don't know what's to be done about it. It looked for mine exactly like any game you see at any grade, down the park on a Saturday in NZ. It is the way NZ's play rugby. Joe Smidt is well aware of that. He played club rugby in Manawatu.

If the Irish posters on here are reflective of the thinking throughout Ireland, then I would suggest the Irish players make themselves unavailable for the Lions tour next year.

 

[Makos]

Justin Marshall is a numpty, he'll say anything to get himself back on the panel next week. Our commentary team are ok but Ian Smith has been known to make the odd foolish statement, I put it down to being a cricketer.

I can't stand Ian when he does the rugby, I don't mind him doing the cricket.. but he's awful when he does the AB matches.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If the Irish posters on here are reflective of the thinking throughout Ireland, then I would suggest the Irish players make themselves unavailable for the Lions tour next year.

Find a post where an one of us said we deserved to win the game, the arguments are fair ones to be having. I'd personally live it if we boycotted the Lions!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

the initial contact, that caused the injury was clearly without a doubt head on head

From this angle, the grounding is clear.

Looks like a pretty clear and obvious head clash to me.

Everything is crystal clear to you guys. Why argue then? I mean, you present your opinions as facts so, why bother arguing with us mere mortals on planet earth.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I'm not going to use google for you but simple logic for you. Citing cases are instances where the Commissioner feels the act warranted a red card....Cane was cited.

so you aren't going to present anything to back you up, you are making a statement with no attempt to back it up

yeah he was cited, so what, we have heard nothing from the citing commission... i wouldn't be surprised if he did received more than the minimum suspension but there is absolutely nothing to say it has to be a red card

stop making up laws

 

[OneBlackEye]

After watching this game with Irish commentary I can see why you guys get so upset when you lose, if I had to listen to that garbage every week I would think that all our losses were due to cheating opposition and unfair refs too.

15 replays of Barretts try with them crying "You can't give that!" and not one mention of Sexton trying to pull his head off. Every hint of an infringement should have been a penalty, every penalty should have been a yellow card and every yellow should have been red. It's pathetic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

- The head high tackle and neck roll by Sexton went unpunished.

One of my bug bears is tries cancelling out foul play.
Just because the team scored doesn't mean that the infringement didn't happen.

 

[corny]

so you aren't going to present anything to back you up, you are making a statement with no attempt to back it up

yeah he was cited, so what, we have heard nothing from the citing commission... i wouldn't be surprised if he did receive a suspension but there is absolutely nothing to say it has to be a red card

stop making up laws

Where did i say automatic? I think i said 'a high shoulder in the face of an opponent is borderline red card' and 'a high shoulder gets you in serious trouble'. You've introduced the word automatic and got hung up on it. Challenging me when you've laid the wrong goalposts as it were.

In the context of the incidents we're discussing i don't think i was making **** up. Cane and Feki (even Coles) are textbook cases of what World Rugby are clamping down on. According to precedent (my opinion and CC apparently) they are easily high end of the penalty spectrum. Not controversial surely?

BTW your response implies you don't know this.....citing means the officer thinks a red card was the correct sanction (17.9.1). You don't get cited if the officer thinks a yellow or a warning is the call. Look at Maestris hit on Sexton in the 6N's....avoided citing because the commissioner said it fell just short of a red card offence.

 

[GoTheNaki]

Sam Cane cited... Just heard it on the radio. ****ing disgraceful, has only happened from the public outrage in ireland and their trashy commentators.

- - - Updated - - -

And before I get a response. Let's pretend it was in any other country, it wasn't a close game, and that player wasn't knocked out during the COMPLETELY legal contact.

 

[big ginger 8]

This thread has dissolved into a great example of why I don't really post here anymore. I'm not going to weigh in on any of the issues but for the love of God could people stop going on about the commentary? During a great game everyone was going on about the commentary and the post game has had loads of potshots at it. Alan Quinlan is famous for being as big a homer as anyone in rugby not named Frankie Sheahan. He was also commentating for the British company Sky most Irish people were watching on RTE the fully Irish broadcast. Unfortunately I'm out of the country and my stream had the Sky commentary.

It's such an inane thing to give out about it is just background noise. It has absolutely no bearing on anything like the citings and especially on the ref so why does it keep getting brought up? It was bad no doubt but as a general rule most sports commentary isn't great and is aimed towards a demographic. Whatever about real issues which impact the game I don't get the constant going on about the commentary.

 

[GoTheNaki]

This thread has dissolved into a great example of why I don't really post here anymore. I'm not going to weigh in on any of the issues but for the love of God could people stop going on about the commentary? During a great game everyone was going on about the commentary and the post game has had loads of potshots at it. Alan Quinlan is famous for being as big a homer as anyone in rugby not named Frankie Sheahan. He was also commentating for the British company Sky most Irish people were watching on RTE the fully Irish broadcast. Unfortunately I'm out of the country and my stream had the Sky commentary.

It's such an inane thing to give out about it is just background noise. It has absolutely no bearing on anything like the citings and especially on the ref so why does it keep getting brought up? It was bad no doubt but as a general rule most sports commentary isn't great and is aimed towards a demographic. Whatever about real issues which impact the game I don't get the constant going on about the commentary.

Because their actions TOWARDS the game, has enabled a country. If they don't keep going on and on about aspects of the game that took place, nothing would have happened.

 

[OneBlackEye]

We're arguing with strangers on the internet about rugby, its all inane.

 

[smartcooky]

After watching this game with Irish commentary I can see why you guys get so upset when you lose, if I had to listen to that garbage every week I would think that all our losses were due to cheating opposition and unfair refs too.

THIS indeed. I have only watched the first half on Youtube with the Irish commentary. Jesus, I thought the Aussie commentators were terrible, but these buffoons were a whole order of magnitude worse. They were bloody awful, and I can't be bothered wasting my time with another 40 minutes of the same, sycophantic, green slanted bias by from these two knobheads who clearly have a serious deficiency in Law knowledge

15 replays of Barretts try with them crying "You can't give that!" and not one mention of Sexton trying to pull his head off. Every hint of an infringement should have been a penalty, every penalty should have been a yellow card and every yellow should have been red. It's pathetic.

This too: not one single mention by either commentator about the coathanger by their golden boy Sexton. I can quite imagine if the TMO had said no grounding but penalty try for the head-high tackle, they would have either gone ballistic or their heads would have exploded!