Nick Evans on Chris Robshaw - "he is not an out-and-out seven"

[Peat]

Perhaps not, but he's still improving and if that continues at anything like the same rate it has been, I'm not too sure who'll be near him. Unless Lawes can convince that he's more than an impact player

I think we're in agreement here really - in the fullness of time, I expect truly great things from Launchbury. His potential - physically, technically, mentally - is probably about as good as I've seen in the time I've followed rugby seriously. We have a number of talented young locks, but none with so much promise. If he fulfils his potential, then I too believe there won't be anyone near him. But, right now, at this point of his career he's not completely undroppable regardless and the arguments of balance may go against him.

So, for now, he won't be assured of his place in the team - although he's a front runner, and I can't see him outside of the 23; long term, he will probably be a fixture, and the long term might come very soon. Or a couple more seasons. Or never at all. Probably soon though. Just not jumping the gun.

edit: And yeah, its him, Attwood and Parling. Which, assuming Attwood proves himself at full international level, will make for a difficult choice.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

I forgot Chris Robshaw existed.

 

[ratsapprentice]

His potential - physically, technically, mentally - is probably about as good as I've seen in the time I've followed rugby seriously.

Definitely.

At the risk of initiating some degree of hype, I'd say the same of Kvesic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

His potential - physically, technically, mentally - is probably about as good as I've seen in the time I've followed rugby seriously.

When did we start talking about Dave Seymour!?

 

[Peat]

Definitely.

At the risk of initiating some degree of hype, I'd say the same of Kvesic.

I like Kvesic a lot but I don't see him in quite the same category. Can't quite put my finger on it, just not... put it this way, I'm sorta anticipating mentioning Launchbury's name in the same breath as Martin Johnson's, I'm not quite doing so for Kvesic and Neil Back yet, although its pretty plausible.

There's only two other youngsters around at the moment who I believe in quite so fervently as Launchbury - that's George North and Iain Henderson.

 

[TommyVercetti]

I'd like to think Launchbury is as good as assured a place on current form, but if Lancaster wants a tighthead lock and Attwood starts performing, something just says to me that it's gonna be Launchbury's place under pressure and not Parling's in the immediate future, which would be rather foolish.

 

[Peat]

Foolish despite the fact Parling is currently in superior international form?

 

[TommyVercetti]

Foolish despite the fact Parling is currently in superior international form?

According to who? Launchbury was once again one of the standout performers on the Argentina tour and has been as consistent as they come since he became an international. Parling had a good 3rd game on the Lions tour mixed with some so-so midweek games and a bad 2nd test. And yes, because Launchbury arguably brings a lot more qualities to the table if you negate Parling's lineout calling prowess, which you would with Attwood. And because Parling is nie on 30 years old and Launchbury still has youth on his side and greater scope for even further improvement.

 

[Peat]

According to who? Launchbury was once again one of the standout performers on the Argentina tour and has been as consistent as they come since he became an international. Parling had a good 3rd game on the Lions tour mixed with some so-so midweek games and a bad 2nd test. And yes, because Launchbury arguably brings a lot more qualities to the table if you negate Parling's lineout calling prowess, which you would with Attwood. And because Parling is nie on 30 years old and Launchbury still has youth on his side and greater scope for even further improvement.

Parling was the better performer at the end of the Six Nations, where Launchbury was ok but had visibly dropped off a little, and had a good Lions tour. So-so midweek and bad 2nd test are not things I'd agree with - he was good in the warm-up games and earned his place, his 2nd test was so-so. Launchbury was good against Argentina, but that was Argentina B, and all evidence from that tour needs a massive pinch of salt.

Yes there is an argument that Launchbury and Attwood could make a stronger combination. I could make it. But I could also make the argument for Parling and Attwood too. They both look like they'll be strong combos, providing Attwood finally makes the jump to international rugby. Foolish is a very strong word for the situation. And if we base arguments on age and potential, then I would like us to pick the player who we think will be at his best come the World Cup. Parling will be 31/32 - arguably peak age for a lock. If anything, age favours Parling here. And form says we pick Parling and then look at the 4 shirt.

It absolutely astonishes me just how underrated Parling is by the majority of England fans tbh.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Attwood will almost certainly have to earn his starting berth from the bench.
I am a huge fan of his, but I can't say I have 100% confidence in him being able to make the step up to top flight international rugby.
He isn't fragile, but he certainly isn't some sort of steely-eyed terminator.

 

[Patchey]

Parling was the better performer at the end of the Six Nations, where Launchbury was ok but had visibly dropped off a little, and had a good Lions tour. So-so midweek and bad 2nd test are not things I'd agree with - he was good in the warm-up games and earned his place, his 2nd test was so-so. Launchbury was good against Argentina, but that was Argentina B, and all evidence from that tour needs a massive pinch of salt.

Yes there is an argument that Launchbury and Attwood could make a stronger combination. I could make it. But I could also make the argument for Parling and Attwood too. They both look like they'll be strong combos, providing Attwood finally makes the jump to international rugby. Foolish is a very strong word for the situation. And if we base arguments on age and potential, then I would like us to pick the player who we think will be at his best come the World Cup. Parling will be 31/32 - arguably peak age for a lock. If anything, age favours Parling here. And form says we pick Parling and then look at the 4 shirt.

It absolutely astonishes me just how underrated Parling is by the majority of England fans tbh.

Fair point about how underrated Parling is and how good he has been this summer. However I thought Launchbury's end of season form was accounted for by injury/fatigue. I seem to remember Wasps resting him for some vital games and Dai Young talking about how after the Six Nations his body wasn't in great shape.

 

[SuperEagle]

Geoff Parling was utterly immense last season for Leicester, England and the Lions. He played more minutes than just about any other English player last season and to maintain his form throughout the whole season shows what a special player he really is.I'd have him as one of the first names down on and England team sheet

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Geoff Parling was utterly immense last season for Leicester, England and the Lions. He played more minutes than just about any other English player last season and to maintain his form throughout the whole season shows what a special player he really is.I'd have him as one of the first names down on and England team sheet

But if Attwood is just as good in the lineout but better in the loose then you'd have to go for attwood. He adds a lot more to the pack. If think Parling would do better for England if he had a beast lock with him which is not Lauchberry.....Infact Attwood and Parling would work as a combo. Brilliant lineout work and work in the looose but then Lauchberry....hmmmmm

At least this is a good place to stuck, it was only a short while ago we had no decent locks!

 

[j'nuh]

Parling - 6' 6", 17 st 13 (Tigers website)
Attwood - 6' 7", 18 st 2 (Bath website)

Is there really that much difference? Why would Attwood be any better without a "beast lock"? (I'm not even convinced that one is needed in the modern game. Hamilton and Gray are the only real "beast locks" being used in the home nations, and neither were Lions XV locks.)

Launchbury-Parling for me. Both have form that goes back for a much longer time than Attwood. Both have very important roles in the squad.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Parling is by some way the top English lock, and anybody claiming otherwise is living in 2016 (if that's possible?)

Living Sacrifice: Attwood isn't as good in the lineout as Parling. And what does he bring that Parling can't make up for somewhere else in his game?
Parling to me = Excellent leadership and experience, strong lineout, athletic around the field, good rucking, always busy, surprisingly good carrier for his size(because he carries slightly further from the tight five than most locks do)

J'nuh: you make an important point, size-wise there's not a great deal to choose from between any of our current locks:
As you say,
Parling - 6' 6", 17 st 13 (Tigers website)
Attwood - 6' 7", 18 st 2 (Bath website)

and then add to that:
Launchbury: 6' 6", 18 st 1 (RFU website)
Lawes: depends which source you believe: Most likely 6' 7", 17 st 6. Saints website = 6' 7" 18 st. Wikipedia = 6' 7" 18 st 8 (No way)

When you consider those stats, it seems that size-wise Attwood and Launchbury are pretty close, to the extent that you'd just chose the one with the best all-round game.

However, I don't altogether agree that 'beast locks' aren't useful. I felt Alun Wyn's extra bulk was key to the balance of the lions packs, even though I'd never previously noticed him being outlandishly big.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm pretty sure Attwood is a lot bigger than that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc7XZMH6UEI

I reckon he's probably 120kg, give or take a couple of kg.
Player's given weights and heights can be extremely suspect, you just have to look at the variation between different sources to see that.
Lancaster noted that Yarde is "closer to 100kg than 90" when LI had him down as being 85kg.
...Anyway, he and Parling are built very differently. Attwood is certainly the more natural athlete from what I have seen.

Not quite sure what you mean by a "beast lock"? Hamilton and Gray are certainly not what I would describe as beasts... Hamilton particularly is more of a lumbering tree person than anything.

Attwood is just about as good as anyone in England on his own team's lineout, but Parling has the beating of him when it comes to stealing opposition ball.

Their work rates, in terms of tackles made and carries, are virtually identical.
Attwood has a higher completion ratio however (made 158, missed 12 VS Parling's made 105, missed 11).
Dave is also a far more effective carrier, and crucially he can do it in the tight and loose.

Attwood made 208 metres from 97 carries, beating 19 defenders.
Parling made 100 metres from 69 carries, beating 2 defenders.

That is a very big difference. And demonstrates the difference in physicality and role more than their bodyweight will.
It shows that Attwood's carrying is actively disrupting opposition defence, as well as making more metres.
I think it should be noted that Geoff makes more passes.
The other area that seperates them is the scrum, the Attwood/Wilson partnership looks extremely strong.
I think Dave has a clear advantage here too.


Stats are all from the premiership btw.

Tl: DR =

I think Attwood should be partnered with Parling or Launchbury, depending on who is playing better.
Note that starting with Parling/Attwood, allows you to have Launch on the bench covering Blindside/Lock? just a thought.

 

[j'nuh]

Very good points made, I stand corrected. I must admit that Attwood's notably stepped up in the last half-season. I remember rumours that he took a paycut at Bath to reflect his lack of development in the years previous, maybe that was a wake-up call? Whatever the case, I'm very happy that he's in good form and we've those three as options.