New Zealand v Tonga

[TRF_Olyy]

What's unfair is the current system. We end up having teams that have nothing to do with the flag they are supposed to represent (notably England and New Zealand), whereas countries such as Tonga, Fidji or Samoa are f***ed up, because they do not have the financial means to keep their players. This is unfair and this is only a matter of money. We already debated about this, but something needs to be done in order to help these countries to develop. And rules that favor these countries is definitely a solution (a kind of positive discrimination).

If you go in Psychic Ducks thread you'll see that it's actually the P.I nations (namely Samoa) that do the most "poaching"

 

[Aout]

You know what I'm talking about Olly.

 

[Seaton]

What's unfair is the current system. We end up having teams that have nothing to do with the flag they are supposed to represent (notably England and New Zealand), whereas countries such as Tonga, Fidji or Samoa are f***ed up, because they do not have the financial means to keep their players. This is unfair and this is only a matter of money. We already debated about this, but something needs to be done in order to help these countries to develop. And rules that favor these countries is definitely a solution (a kind of positive discrimination).

Forget I mentioned anything, this has been debated/ argued to the realm of Hades and back, and is slowly climbing Mount Olympus.

 

[IKALETAHI]

Tongan Coaches have expressed mixed opinions during interviews. During the PNC assistant Coach Toutai Kefu said they would rest players against NZ and target France to get to the Quarter Finals. Recently Head Coach Isitolo Maka has said Tonga need to do what Samoa did to the Australians(shut down time and out muscle them), which could indicate a desire to win that game.

Pacific Islands punch well above their weight, born with natural speed and strength, So Tonga wont have a problem here. The set piece and fitness is where Tonga will need to be competitive. Anyone in Auckland could tell you the amount of support Tonga and Samoa have so they will feel at Home. Samoa's win against Australia has probably brought a belief to all Pacific Nations so nothing would surprise me.

 

[UilamOsa]

Ah, so it is not that the IRB is making rules that favour Tier 1 countries, but rather that they are not making rules that favour Tier 2/3 countries, more specifically the Island countries, as they will have access to more players than say Eastern European countries/ Asia.

Fair enough, you do realize how... unfair and greedy such a proposed rule change seems?

As for this game, I imagine the AB's will want to put on a good show, and won't give any quarter (not that they usually do of course), AB's to win by a truck-load of points, one of those massive yellow dirt movers they use in coal pits to be more specific

I've read your comment a few times. I don't understand your point?

How is wanting an unwanted former national representative, who has legitimate family/resident links to another country be greedy? Maybe it's because you don't understand the cultural links that run pacific islanders, but for the majority there is a distinct connection to our father/motherland irrespective of where we may reside.

Who said that the eastern european/asian countries were missing out? James Arlidge, Ryan Nicholas (former NZ Maori) are playing for Japan. Not too mention all the expats (NZ/AUS) that use to coach/represent eastern european/asian teams.

 

[Seaton]

I've read your comment a few times. I don't understand your point?

How is wanting an unwanted former national representative, who has legitimate family/resident links to another country be greedy? Maybe it's because you don't understand the cultural links that run pacific islanders, but for the majority there is a distinct connection to our father/motherland irrespective of where we may reside.

Who said that the eastern european/asian countries were missing out? James Arlidge, Ryan Nicholas (former NZ Maori) are playing for Japan. Not too mention all the expats (NZ/AUS) that use to coach/represent eastern european/asian teams.

The point is that this proposed rule change is being vaunted as a positive thing for all non-Tier 1 countries, however it will be extremely disproportionately advantageous for the Pacific Island nations, as they will a far greater 'pool' of players to choose from than all the other non-Tier 1 countries, and your whole point about cultural ties being very important for Polynesians further illustrates that they want this rule primarily for their own benefit (I'm speaking about the concerned unions), not for the benefit of the game as a whole.

I want other countries to improve, by all means, however as soon as we start implementing regulations that favour one set of countries over another, then we start going down a very, very murky rode, that is best left untrodden.

 

[nickdnz]

What's unfair is the current system. We end up having teams that have nothing to do with the flag they are supposed to represent (notably England and New Zealand), whereas countries such as Tonga, Fidji or Samoa are f***ed up, because they do not have the financial means to keep their players. This is unfair and this is only a matter of money. We already debated about this, but something needs to be done in order to help these countries to develop. And rules that favor these countries is definitely a solution (a kind of positive discrimination).

Like an IRB state of the art, rugby facility which has just finished construction in Samoa?
Like IRB funded tours and money that is put into running the PNC?

Who in the All Blacks is not supposed to represent the All Blacks. I challenge you to name a single current player. The fact that half the Samoan team were born and bred in New Zealand is so lost and forgotten, but fact of the matter is, the ignorent take one look at a brown face in the All Blacks and say "He's not really a New Zealand" (regardless of the fact Auckland has more Pacific Islanders in it than Suva and Apia combined! AND a larger Pacific Island population than all of Tonga). I challenge you to name a single player in the All Blacks who shouldn't represent them. Otherwise give it up.

 

[Aout]

You're kidding me, aren't you ?

Milis Muliaina
Isaia Toeava
Ben Franks
Jerome Kaino

And you also have Sitiveni Sivivatu, Josevata Rokocoko, Rodney So'oialo, Chris Masoe.

If you want some other names let me know, i guess i can give you at least 10 more non-kiwi players who played for NZ over the last 3 years.

 

[Seaton]

Lol, I'll get the popcorn.

I thought you participated in the previous discussions, Aout?

 

[Aout]

I didn't actually, I only read it !

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Presume you want Dusautoir to stop playing for France then?

 

[Aout]

Thierry Dusautoir's father was French. I don't think Manu Tuilagi's or Chris Masoe's father were English/Kiwi.

You guys exactly know what we are all talking about. But for some reason you refuse to admit it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Double standards - born in a different country with one French parent

Bet you have problems with Matt Stevens/Brad Barritt playing for England

 

[UilamOsa]

The point is that this proposed rule change is being vaunted as a positive thing for all non-Tier 1 countries, however it will be extremely disproportionately advantageous for the Pacific Island nations, as they will a far greater 'pool' of players to choose from than all the other non-Tier 1 countries, and your whole point about cultural ties being very important for Polynesians further illustrates that they want this rule primarily for their own benefit (I'm speaking about the concerned unions), not for the benefit of the game as a whole.

I want other countries to improve, by all means, however as soon as we start implementing regulations that favour one set of countries over another, then we start going down a very, very murky rode, that is best left untrodden.

Now I understand your point, but I disagree with it. It is a murky road that being run through International Rugby League BUT it is something that I've always believed that the IRB would have better control of, if implemented. At the moment, for me - the only reason that it is not in effect is that some of the Top Tier nations fear the possibility of losing to these teams.

Again - if a player is unwantedby his country, why can't he play for another national team - if he has and can present legitimate reasons to do so?

I wouldn't be against Nick Evans representing England (it's an extreme example) but I would be willing to uppercut Graham Henry for not trying to bring him back rather than Money Bill Williams or Carl Hayman or Luke McAlister.

 

[Seaton]

Thierry Dusautoir's father was French. I don't think Manu Tuilagi's or Chris Masoe's father were English/Kiwi.

You guys exactly know what we are all talking about. But for some reason you refuse to admit it.

Most of the All Blacks you listed have spent most of their lives in New Zealand, in many people's eyes this would mean they are more Kiwi than say someone born in Kiwiland then moved to England aged 3 and spent the rest of his/ her life there.

Joseph Stalin was born in Georgia to Georgian parents, how dare historians consider him Russian! After all, what did he do that we consider him so?

 

[UilamOsa]

You're kidding me, aren't you ?

Milis Muliaina
Isaia Toeava
Ben Franks
Jerome Kaino

And you also have Sitiveni Sivivatu, Josevata Rokocoko, Rodney So'oialo, Chris Masoe.

If you want some other names let me know, i guess i can give you at least 10 more non-kiwi players who played for NZ over the last 3 years.

Wow. Are you really that daft?

Oh that's right - NZ has scouts all over the Islands scouting future All Blacks from the age of 2

Also, Chris Masoe's family (as well as the rest of them) are firmly ensconced in NZ sport. He has a NZ Boxing Champ Brother (I think) a NZ Rep League Nephew - who is actually more of a monster than his Uncle.

You should come to NZ - I can show you Otara.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm not sure changing the one nation rule would help the Islanders in all cases

one has to be aware that Doug Howlett might not necessarily play for Tonga now his All Black career is over, he might just opt to play for Ireland for whom he is now qualified for and get more money, Casey Laulala could play for Wales and so on

but there would be a rule to stop that ... a player may only represent a second nation if they were qualified for that nation at the time of making their debut for their first nation

 

[Aout]

@Olly
I don't know these guys tbh, but I guess they were born abroad. If they were born abroad from English parents, then I don't see any reason why they would'nt be able to play for England.

And about the English team, even the English themselves are ******. All the guys in my team (Coventry), players, coaches etc... really feel that the English team that left for the RWC isn't really "English". I can't blame them for this.

 

[Aout]

Wow. Are you really that daft?

Oh that's right - NZ has scouts all over the Islands scouting future All Blacks from the age of 2

Also, Chris Masoe's family (as well as the rest of them) are firmly ensconced in NZ sport. He has a NZ Boxing Champ Brother (I think) a NZ Rep League Nephew - who is actually more of a monster than his Uncle.

You should come to NZ - I can show you Otara.

Fine then, in few years we will have a NZ team with 15 players who were born abroad.

 

[Seaton]

Now I understand your point, but I disagree with it. It is a murky road that being run through International Rugby League BUT it is something that I've always believed that the IRB would have better control of, if implemented. At the moment, for me - the only reason that it is not in effect is that some of the Top Tier nations fear the possibility of losing to these teams.

Again - if a player is unwantedby his country, why can't he play for another national team - if he has and can present legitimate reasons to do so?

I wouldn't be against Nick Evans representing England (it's an extreme example) but I would be willing to uppercut Graham Henry for not trying to bring him back rather than Money Bill Williams or Carl Hayman or Luke McAlister.

It would lead to abuse of the system, with players holding out to play for Tier 1 countries, play a few games and then when no longer 'wanted', go and play for their original country. This would cheapen international jerseys amongst other things.

Unfortunately we live in times that I would stake my life's fortunes on someone abusing this kind of system, and there are a plethora of other reasons why this shouldn't be introduced, most of which have already been brought up on previous threads about this.