New England starting 15?

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

On a little side note if the Sarracens choacing team considers Barrett the better 12....Hodgson the better 10. then how does that work on england selection? I always want my england team to be starting in their england position week in week out. It annoyed my how Hape got picked at 12 when he was mostly playing 13 for Bath? Bizzare!

If Lancaster purley went on a form 15 from england ignoring all previous caps ect who would he pick?

I can't even think of a complete form 15 from english rugby. I don't watch enough to comment on wingers ect.

Is Benjamin better than sharples?
What about Wood batter than marler better than Corb?
Is Garvey better than Robson?
Is attwood any good at the moment?
Is barrett better than JTH and Farrell at 12?

So many questions that only Lancaster knows the answers to i guess.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This is all my opinion, but I'll have a bash at answering them

Is Benjamin better than sharples?

It's hard to say with this, Benjamin is in a Worcester team playing poorly, and Sharples is a bit off form atm. Either/or, really, though Sharples has been exposed to the EPS through the training camps before, and is a bit quicker - really not sure

What about Wood batter than marler better than Corb?

He's better than Marler by a long way in the scrum, though not as good around the park. ATM he's better than Corbisiero, who plays much better in an England shirt than a London Irish, I think.

Is Garvey better than Robson?

Not sure, never really payed much attention to Garvey (or Robson, for that matter )

Is attwood any good at the moment?

One of the better performers from Bath during their slump of the past few months. I'd pick him, but probably not start him.

Is barrett better than JTH and Farrell at 12?

I think so. JTH is a good player, but I think Barritt is better, and Farrell isn't half as good as Barritt.

 

[gingergenius]

In an ideal world players would play in the same positions for England and their clubs all the time. But life's not like that.

I'll use Saracens as an example, simply because I watch them every week.

For the past 2 years, Brad Barritt has been outstanding at inside centre. He breaks the gainline, straightens well, tackles anything. He is undroppable and is the most important cog in the defence.

This season, we've had a choice at ten of either Owen Farrell, or Charlie Hodgson, both of whom are quality in different ways.

At 13, Saracens don't have an obvious option. Kameli Ratuvou barely plays any 1st team any more; Adam Powell has spent a lot of time injured recently; at the end of last season Chris Wyles filled in admirably. So, Saracens pick Farrell here as a way of squeezing both him and Hodgson into the same team. You'll notice Farrell doesn't play a typical 13 role and often stands in at 1st receiver, so essentially Saracens play with two fly halves.

I agree it's annoying when certain players get picked out of position. I seem to remember being very irritated that the only player in the RWC squad capable of playing 12 was our best fly half, Toby Flood, and I won't go into back rows and looseheads again. But Farrell won't play for England at 13. Or he shouldn't. He is a natural 10/ 12, and at the top level that is where he'll go - don't forget that just because he wears 13 at Sarries a lot of the time, he still plays at 10 and 12 a lot too.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

In an ideal world players would play in the same positions for England and their clubs all the time. But life's not like that.

I'll use Saracens as an example, simply because I watch them every week.

For the past 2 years, Brad Barritt has been outstanding at inside centre. He breaks the gainline, straightens well, tackles anything. He is undroppable and is the most important cog in the defence.

This season, we've had a choice at ten of either Owen Farrell, or Charlie Hodgson, both of whom are quality in different ways.

At 13, Saracens don't have an obvious option. Kameli Ratuvou barely plays any 1st team any more; Adam Powell has spent a lot of time injured recently; at the end of last season Chris Wyles filled in admirably. So, Saracens pick Farrell here as a way of squeezing both him and Hodgson into the same team. You'll notice Farrell doesn't play a typical 13 role and often stands in at 1st receiver, so essentially Saracens play with two fly halves.

I agree it's annoying when certain players get picked out of position. I seem to remember being very irritated that the only player in the RWC squad capable of playing 12 was our best fly half, Toby Flood, and I won't go into back rows and looseheads again. But Farrell won't play for England at 13. Or he shouldn't. He is a natural 10/ 12, and at the top level that is where he'll go - don't forget that just because he wears 13 at Sarries a lot of the time, he still plays at 10 and 12 a lot too.

Thank you for that insight, its nice to know that he doesn't stand ion the 13 position all day then. The question is as a sarries fan would you rather have barrett or farrell at 12 for england? (Assumes floods at 10).
Farrell does make a good becnh option though.

 

[HowieLO6]

Whats happening with the recent league starlet, who headed the way of Sarries? Forget his name, but some chums up from the league side of the country raved about him.

As far as Farrell playing in various positions in the backline, i'm generally keen to see the younger players doing as such. Versatility isn't to be sniffed at and it would certainly help Farrell chances of, at the very least, becoming an extremely useful option on the bench. Its a real shame that Ford's physique is very much that of an 18 year old (rather than Wilkinson's physique at that age), as i'm a real fan of his subtle skill set.

While we're talking "yoot", is it much longer before we see Elliot Daly getting consideration? IMO, he is our O'Connor. Age be damned.

 

[jeffb]

Spose Tomkins is learning and understanding the game.

 

[Peat]

Whats happening with the recent league starlet, who headed the way of Sarries? Forget his name, but some chums up from the league side of the country raved about him.

Currently learning how to play 13 for Sarries' A team.

While we're talking "yoot", is it much longer before we see Elliot Daly getting consideration? IMO, he is our O'Connor. Age be damned.

Probably not until next year.

On a little side note if the Sarracens choacing team considers Barrett the better 12....Hodgson the better 10. then how does that work on england selection? I always want my england team to be starting in their england position week in week out. It annoyed my how Hape got picked at 12 when he was mostly playing 13 for Bath? Bizzare!

If they pick Farrell, it will be in his strong positions (10 or 12) - Sarries do rotate a fair bit, so Farrell has had a fair few games at 10, enough that I wouldn't discount him for selection there.
[/quote]

Is Garvey better than Robson?
Is attwood any good at the moment?

Both of Garvey and Robson are in better form, while Attwood's been struggling a fair bit. Gradually beginning to catch form. Hard to pick between Garvey and Robson, but as they're very different players, you pick the one you need and that makes life easy.

Is barrett better than JTH and Farrell at 12?

Easily. It helps that JTH has been out injured for ages (think he still might be)

 

[gingergenius]

Don't forget that Saracens won the Premiership last season off the back of about 12 or 13 consecutive wins in which Farrell played 10.

@ sacrifice
for the England midfield, it's all about balance.

If everyone is fit, then Flood is a shoe-in at 10 and Tuilagi a shoe-in at 13. The question of 12 would for me be a tossup between Farrell and Barritt, and which to pick depends on which will help the other two work best.

Barritt's distribution is very underrated, but in the 12 role he is still essentially a carrier, like Tuilagi. I would worry that with Flood taking the ball so flat and loving the inside ball, and having two crashers in midfield, that the back 3 would rarely get a look in.

Farrell on the other hand is arguably more suited to playing 12, especially outside Flood and inside Tuilagi. From the base, the 9 can have two kicking options. At 1st receiver, Flood can stand as flat as he likes safe in the knowledge that if he's under too much pressure he's got a safe option nearby and a little deeper. Otherwise, he's got the option of a fast, flat ball to Tuilagi/ a forward, or his little inside ball to the blindside winger. If there's space out wide, he can give it to Farrell who can sling it out to Foden hitting the line.

This all changes with personnel. With Flood injured, Farrell's the obvious option at 10 and Barritt at 12. If Tuilagi's injured and Flood is fit, then I can't think of many fit players beyond Trinder for 13, which means you'll want a crasher (Barritt) at 12.

Defensively, I don't know too much about Trinder but Flood/ Farrell/ Barritt/ Tuilagi are all excellent defenders.

EDIT: just read that Flood is definitely out of the Scotland game. Farrell and Barritt to both start then (hopefully).

 

[RAWWeyman]

Im sure Olyy will kill me for this but I'd say Benjamin is better than Sharples, escpecially taking form into account. Though they are completely different players. Once Benjamin heads off to the East Midlands he will only improve as well.

Would not put Marler near the starting 22 until he is a capable scrummager, which he simply is not at the moment. Would DEFINITELY start Wood however.

Easily. It helps that JTH has been out injured for ages (think he still might be)

Barritt is England's best inside centre at the moment. So I agree. JTH is back from injury but, even as a Quins fan myself, I would put him as our 3rd best 12, behind Twelvetrees.

If Farrell goes anywhere NEAR the 13 shirt I am going to cry.

Robson is more a lineout option, whereas Garvey is more of an 'engine room' man. Unfortunately for Attwood, it's very difficult to find top form in a side losing 5 times in a row, but nevertheless he has pulled out excellent performances in a pretty poor looking Bath side.

1. Wood
4. Lawes
5. Robson
11. Benjamin
12. Barritt

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm actually a massive fan of Benjamin ever since seeing him for the Worcester academy back in the day

 

[j'nuh]

JSD > Benjamin/Sharples/Wade..

Plus I'll be heartbroken for the guy if he's overlooked, AGAIN.

 

[gingergenius]

I've barely seen Benjamin at all since he played U20s, what is he up to at the moment that's jumping him up the winger queue so much?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

hmm Benjamin doesn't have a great try scoring record...but then he is at worcester. As i am always a huge fan of JSD i can't warrent his selection due to his age (29) and at winger its those years that they generally tail off......but then again i could be wrong (I hope so) as he is a huge talent. Also if on the bench can cover multiple positions.

 

[HowieLO6]

JSD > Benjamin/Sharples/Wade..

Plus I'll be heartbroken for the guy if he's overlooked, AGAIN.

Had him down coaching at my club last summer. Managed to miss it, thanks to a blown-out knee, but by all accounts he's not only a mercurial talent but also a thoroughly nice chap.

Would agree that he's better than other alternatives - fan of Wade's promise, albeit more in a straight-line speed, kind of way - and, quite possibly, the most talented back of his generation. Would sincerely love him to stay healthy to show us what he's capable of. One of those few players who you can't account for, has the ability to pull something unexpected out of the bag. If he's fit, i'd have him on the wing in a heartbeat.

 

[psychic duck]

Agreed.

The world sits back looks at Gatland and everyone runs around say "What a great selection policy" "Young players building for the future"

Then an England manager looks at doing it and all that is wrong with English rugby runs a mile screaming they are not ready.

You need to blood players, see who steps up and who does not. I still firmly believe with the right attitude and set up England are more than capable of winning again this year.

Also as has been said earlier you need to run a few risks other wise you don't find your Dan Carter.

I bet the same people saying "let this kid who did well for the under 20's is on the cusp of a Saxons call up have a chance" would scream for Lancaster's head if it didn't work and England lost to Scotland for example

some of the players suggested (Clegg, Ford, May) are big risks, and may well lose it and do a Mathew Tait debut of course they may not, but the post above mentions picking youngsters and testing them whilst also mentioning the same attitude winning the tournament, wrong if you're going to pick youngsters they need to be given time and may well have some shaky moments to begin with and bottle a match, the idea is that with persistence they learn and will perhaps win 2 years time

I'm not saying it's wrong to pick youngsters, but it's easy for people to say it when your job and reputation for future jobs isn't on the line

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think it's more about picking form players even though they can be young rather than old trusted boring out of form players.
So Clegg is young...but not overly on form so don't pick him.
Wade is young but on fire....so have him in the squad and see what he can do.

Barrett is not young but not old...but on amazing form so pick him.

 

[Peat]

It's one thing to put in young players with solid proven skills at a level below and see whether they can step up.

It's another to put in young players who have large parts of the skillset missing and see whether they can step up while learning how to do a new thing.

I am all for the former. I am very much against the latter.

It's rare it's that clear cut, but generally the smaller the weakness and the bigger the talent, the more likely it will be overlooked (both by the English management and myself). I was happy to see gambles taken on Tuilagi and Youngs. I'm not with Farrell, because not being able to get a backline moving is a massive weakness and a big question mark over his talent.

If we must gamble on a young 10, then Freddie Burns is a far more sensible option in my mind.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Clegg doing the same as last week - dangerous ball in hand but shocking from the tee, missing some right sitters.

 

[Peat]

Clegg doing the same as last week - dangerous ball in hand but shocking from the tee, missing some right sitters.

Was just about to say, not watching too closely but noticing that much - Foden is looking very dangerous as well, think he's settling the full-back question here.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yup, definitely won the Him vs Brown match up

Lancaster in the crowd as well. Lamb has gone pretty well too, maybe he might get the nod.

PDJ will have done nothing for his case, surprisingly dirty match from him, and Hartley chatting back to the ref like a prat.