Match Attendance in the Magners League.

[AlisterLees]

Edinburgh got their biggest "proper" attendance in the Magners on Saturday of 5,761 (the 12k attendance for last year's Glasgow game was predominantly down to free tickets for people who went to the Scotland Autumn tests). Yes Leinster always have a fair number of supporters but at least some of the new faces must have been from the success of the team and maybe even the revised kick off time. Hopefully, despite the last minute defeat, a fair few will come again as the team itself play entertaining rugby, are all (bar one) Scottish, if not local born and (for the time being) still top of the league!

Similar to what has since happened in Wales, the Scottish "superclubs" have had to fight against the club scene and this was not handled very well here at all. They also have to compete with football for supporters. Whilst the Edinburgh attendance isn't that impressive on it's own, you compare it against the football crowds up in Scotland that day and it stands up pretty well. Certainly shows that there is a potential audience here.

If you put this attendance in a reasonable sized ground it would also look a little more impressive than us rattling round Murrayfield. But that's a different matter.....!

 

[Blindside6]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 29 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Lads back to point why dont the WRU enforce it so and drop Cardiff from Blues etc and i know there rivalries at club level but like here in Ireland Munster play on sat we'll all shout on Paulie and boys then Sunday Shannon Garryowen Young Munster etc be knocking off eachother like same happens in Dublin and Cork.[/b]

It's easier said than done. Can you imagine the uproar if the FA said that Everton & Liverpool or Man U & Man City had to combine their Premiership teams into one to continue to play in the Premiership. But they could keep their own identity to play in the 1st Division.

 

[dullonien]

It's all the WRU's fault in the first place. If they'd done things properly and created brand new regions like they'd originally planned, I think things would be alot better by now. Instead, Llanelli and Cardiff refused and screwed up the entire system. And now they're paying for it. The Scarlets are in huge financial difficulty, and the Blues have alienated thousands of potential supporters.

Something does need to be done though, and to be honest I can't see the problem of dropping the name Cardiff. If supporters don't like it, they can **** off, as the Blues is a region wheather they like it or not. And I think the WRU should enforce a change, at least then the fans wouldn't be angry with the region, just the WRU. The move out of the CAP was also innevitabe, and it's plain stupid that some fans are kicking up such a fuss. The CAP was becomming unusable for a team as big as the Blues, It's also important imo to finally finish off the Millenium Stadium and rid the conrete cancer that's taken hold. I hope this does go ahead soon.

 

[AlisterLees]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 29 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Lads back to point why dont the WRU enforce it so and drop Cardiff from Blues etc and i know there rivalries at club level but like here in Ireland Munster play on sat we'll all shout on Paulie and boys then Sunday Shannon Garryowen Young Munster etc be knocking off eachother like same happens in Dublin and Cork.[/b]

Munstermuffin

The big difference is that in Ireland you've managed to use your provinces (is that the right term?) as your pro teams so there's a natural flow and fan base, in Scotland and Wales they've ended up crowbarring in teams that no-one will have previous allegiances to. I think by almost combining clubs in Wales they'd hoped they pull in supporters from the original clubs without realising that local rivalries were far stronger than that.

My hope for Edinburgh is that if the club succeed on the pitch then the fan base will grow. I seem to recall that Leinster weren't that well followed not that long ago

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 29 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lads back to point why dont the WRU enforce it so and drop Cardiff from Blues etc and i know there rivalries at club level but like here in Ireland Munster play on sat we'll all shout on Paulie and boys then Sunday Shannon Garryowen Young Munster etc be knocking off eachother like same happens in Dublin and Cork.[/b]

Munstermuffin

The big difference is that in Ireland you've managed to use your provinces (is that the right term?) as your pro teams so there's a natural flow and fan base, in Scotland and Wales they've ended up crowbarring in teams that no-one will have previous allegiances to. I think by almost combining clubs in Wales they'd hoped they pull in supporters from the original clubs without realising that local rivalries were far stronger than that.

My hope for Edinburgh is that if the club succeed on the pitch then the fan base will grow. I seem to recall that Leinster weren't that well followed not that long ago
[/b][/quote]

we were getting full houses in the first season of the Magners League and that season we didn't have the Munster match until the final which drew 30000.

 

[Blindside6]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Sep 30 2009, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It's all the WRU's fault in the first place. If they'd done things properly and created brand new regions like they'd originally planned, I think things would be alot better by now. Instead, Llanelli and Cardiff refused and screwed up the entire system. And now they're paying for it. The Scarlets are in huge financial difficulty, and the Blues have alienated thousands of potential supporters.

Something does need to be done though, and to be honest I can't see the problem of dropping the name Cardiff. If supporters don't like it, they can **** off, as the Blues is a region wheather they like it or not. And I think the WRU should enforce a change, at least then the fans wouldn't be angry with the region, just the WRU. The move out of the CAP was also innevitabe, and it's plain stupid that some fans are kicking up such a fuss. The CAP was becomming unusable for a team as big as the Blues, It's also important imo to finally finish off the Millenium Stadium and rid the conrete cancer that's taken hold. I hope this does go ahead soon.[/b]

How would you have created the regions? Anything the WRU would have come up with would be just as false. Most of the top tier rugby clubs are in the M4 corridor so if you'd resorted to counties eg Gwent, Glamorgan, Dyfed etc you'd have had a large inbalance.

As to Cardiff supporters either liking it or "**** off" you're ovbiouly speaking from a position of ignorance. CAP holds 12 500, the average Blues gate for the last few seasons in the Magners has been under 9 000. They also had the option for the large games of utilising the Mill Stad next door. Finally although the Blues have moved CAP is still run by Cardiff Athletic Club and Cardiff RFC currently has a long lease, 20 years, to continue to play rugby there. Therefore, IF the WRU wanted to close Glanmor's Gap they would have to buy CAP. Finally 'concrete cancer' is an emotive term for a common problem with concrete from the '60s. The South Stand of CAP has this problem but it isn't going to fall over in the near future and it has been estimated that it will be safe as long as rectification is carried out before 2030.

 

[bgrugbyfan]

As an aside, this is a very interesting thread.

 

[shazbooger]

Very.

It is very easy for the Irish to sit back and observe as our union didnt try to shoe-horn us into an emalgamation of previously supported clubs. We already had loose alliegances to the provinces so it was an easy migration. The interesting thing we are seeing over here, especially in Dublin is the take up of the season tickets. I'm not sure of the exact number but last year they were saying that close to 80% of the 10,000 or so season tickets were purchased by fans with no affiliation to the traditional rugby clubs in Ireland. In other words, non-traditional fans are starting to support a team they previously wouldnt have done.

With the Welsh and Scottish regions, its clear they have a bit of catching up to do but now the correct and accepted structure is in place, you'd assume the worst is over.

 

[AlisterLees]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Sep 30 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 29 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lads back to point why dont the WRU enforce it so and drop Cardiff from Blues etc and i know there rivalries at club level but like here in Ireland Munster play on sat we'll all shout on Paulie and boys then Sunday Shannon Garryowen Young Munster etc be knocking off eachother like same happens in Dublin and Cork.[/b]

Munstermuffin

The big difference is that in Ireland you've managed to use your provinces (is that the right term?) as your pro teams so there's a natural flow and fan base, in Scotland and Wales they've ended up crowbarring in teams that no-one will have previous allegiances to. I think by almost combining clubs in Wales they'd hoped they pull in supporters from the original clubs without realising that local rivalries were far stronger than that.

My hope for Edinburgh is that if the club succeed on the pitch then the fan base will grow. I seem to recall that Leinster weren't that well followed not that long ago
[/b][/quote]

we were getting full houses in the first season of the Magners League and that season we didn't have the Munster match until the final which drew 30000.
[/b][/quote]

An Tarbh

Magners League maybe but earlier this decade (pre the current sponsorship) Leinster weren't so popular if I remember rightly? In the couple of thousands, no more

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Sep 30 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 29 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lads back to point why dont the WRU enforce it so and drop Cardiff from Blues etc and i know there rivalries at club level but like here in Ireland Munster play on sat we'll all shout on Paulie and boys then Sunday Shannon Garryowen Young Munster etc be knocking off eachother like same happens in Dublin and Cork.[/b]

Munstermuffin

The big difference is that in Ireland you've managed to use your provinces (is that the right term?) as your pro teams so there's a natural flow and fan base, in Scotland and Wales they've ended up crowbarring in teams that no-one will have previous allegiances to. I think by almost combining clubs in Wales they'd hoped they pull in supporters from the original clubs without realising that local rivalries were far stronger than that.

My hope for Edinburgh is that if the club succeed on the pitch then the fan base will grow. I seem to recall that Leinster weren't that well followed not that long ago
[/b][/quote]

we were getting full houses in the first season of the Magners League and that season we didn't have the Munster match until the final which drew 30000.
[/b][/quote]

An Tarbh

Magners League maybe but earlier this decade (pre the current sponsorship) Leinster weren't so popular if I remember rightly? In the couple of thousands, no more
[/b][/quote]

well as I said in the first season we had full houses at Donnybrook, fair enough capacity was only 7500 but that was still more than the other teams in the competition and there were 30k at Lansdowne for the first final and they weren't all Munster fans and that was back in 2001.

 

[dullonien]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindside6 @ Sep 30 2009, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

How would you have created the regions? Anything the WRU would have come up with would be just as false. Most of the top tier rugby clubs are in the M4 corridor so if you'd resorted to counties eg Gwent, Glamorgan, Dyfed etc you'd have had a large inbalance.

As to Cardiff supporters either liking it or "**** off" you're ovbiouly speaking from a position of ignorance. CAP holds 12 500, the average Blues gate for the last few seasons in the Magners has been under 9 000. They also had the option for the large games of utilising the Mill Stad next door. Finally although the Blues have moved CAP is still run by Cardiff Athletic Club and Cardiff RFC currently has a long lease, 20 years, to continue to play rugby there. Therefore, IF the WRU wanted to close Glanmor's Gap they would have to buy CAP. Finally 'concrete cancer' is an emotive term for a common problem with concrete from the '60s. The South Stand of CAP has this problem but it isn't going to fall over in the near future and it has been estimated that it will be safe as long as rectification is carried out before 2030.[/b]

The Original proposal from the WRU was to propperly merge a few existing clubs into the new regions. E.g. Llanelli were meant to be merged with Swansea etc. etc. They would have brand new names, and wear different (or at least a comination) of the clubs colours. The Ospreys have shown that a balance can be met, even between two clubs that had massive rivalries in the club scene. I still don't think they've done everything perfectly mind, as their kit shouldn't resemble Neath's as it does. However for the Scarlets and Blues (the worst offenders) to keep the colours and names of only one of the existing clubs is plain stupid and shouldn't have been allowed. Unfortunately it's now certainly too late to do too much about, apart from dropping the name. The Scarets have already done that, the Blues and Dragons must follow suit if they want to gain more supporters.

I won't appologise for my stance on the Cardiff name front. Cardiff is only one of the areas represented within the Blues region and it shouldn't be their choice whether the Cardiff name is kept! It's unfair on the other areas/towns that it's kept, and fans should realise that it's alienating people, therefore holding back the development of the region. For the good of the region it should be changed, the sooner the better. Maybe the younger generation won't mind, but that isn't good enough imo. History shouldn't matter, as these are brand new regions that are in the process of writing their new history.

On the CAP issue. I understand Cardiff Athletic Club still own CAP, but personally I still believe the Millenium should be finished as planned. It would increase the capacity of the MS, so I'm sure the WRU will eventually try to purchase the CAP for the redevolpment, as they'd recoup the money with the increased ticket sales of Wales matches. I can't see how a capacity of 12,500 was enough, aven if the average attendace was below that. If the Blues have ambitions to develop and grow, they couldn't miss the opportunity the Bluebirds gave them. I also didn't see moving bigger games to the MS as a great move, as you're technically giving up a part of the home advantage you have. It increases revenue, but reduces atmosphere. Having the new stadium allowes room for growth which I hope they can fill regulary in a few years time. Supporters will come if the Blues win, some supporters who are angy with the move will return in time if they're true rugby fans, and the CAP will be retured to the history books where it belongs.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

The collor of the Cardiff Blues' playing shirt says "65 Clubs, One Region".

I'd say that speaks for it's self, but on the outside of the collor, it says 'THE BLUES'. Not the Cardiff Blues, just THE BLUES. Whilst the badge does say 'Cardiff Blues', it's only place on the jersy that the name is used.

That didn't really make much of a point, but I thought it was intresting in relation to the raised matters. The other thing is that Cardiff City Stadium and Cardiff Arms Park are in -Wait for it- Cardiff. They're not losing visitors from outside Cardiff by putting the town's name in the team's name, as the vast majority of them would be too far away anyway. While my Welsh geography may not be spot-on, (The only area I really know is Ystrad Mynarch) and someone's going to find a better 'Solution' to it, I belive I'll point it out nonetheless.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads why did ye join so if ye feel strongly about this why not all VETO it and battle out with the Italian Teams as Bridgend and Neath etc because if ye met a GP team in this era never mind Munster/Leinster/Top 14 team ye'd do well to hold them in this day and age

Hey Connacht might even get in H'Cup :lol: Althought on 2nd thoughts nobody can go that bad ......... Can they? B)

 

[AlisterLees]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Sep 30 2009, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Sep 30 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 29 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lads back to point why dont the WRU enforce it so and drop Cardiff from Blues etc and i know there rivalries at club level but like here in Ireland Munster play on sat we'll all shout on Paulie and boys then Sunday Shannon Garryowen Young Munster etc be knocking off eachother like same happens in Dublin and Cork.[/b]

Munstermuffin

The big difference is that in Ireland you've managed to use your provinces (is that the right term?) as your pro teams so there's a natural flow and fan base, in Scotland and Wales they've ended up crowbarring in teams that no-one will have previous allegiances to. I think by almost combining clubs in Wales they'd hoped they pull in supporters from the original clubs without realising that local rivalries were far stronger than that.

My hope for Edinburgh is that if the club succeed on the pitch then the fan base will grow. I seem to recall that Leinster weren't that well followed not that long ago
[/b][/quote]

we were getting full houses in the first season of the Magners League and that season we didn't have the Munster match until the final which drew 30000.
[/b][/quote]

An Tarbh

Magners League maybe but earlier this decade (pre the current sponsorship) Leinster weren't so popular if I remember rightly? In the couple of thousands, no more
[/b][/quote]

well as I said in the first season we had full houses at Donnybrook, fair enough capacity was only 7500 but that was still more than the other teams in the competition and there were 30k at Lansdowne for the first final and they weren't all Munster fans and that was back in 2001.
[/b][/quote]

Done some sniffing around on this and yes Leinster got high league attendances but they also got low ones; the 2003-4 season for example goes between 1,068 v Ospreys up to 7,000 v Ulster with the majority of games being under 3,000. Not having a go, just interested in how Leinster have done it.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 30 2009, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Lads why did ye join so if ye feel strongly about this why not all VETO it and battle out with the Italian Teams as Bridgend and Neath etc because if ye met a GP team in this era never mind Munster/Leinster/Top 14 team ye'd do well to hold them in this day and age

Hey Connacht might even get in H'Cup :lol: Althought on 2nd thoughts nobody can go that bad ......... Can they? B)[/b]

well Cardiff did get to the first final of the HEC and Llanelli got to the semis in 2000 so that arguement is pretty redundant.

 

[munstermuffin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Sep 30 2009, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 30 2009, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lads why did ye join so if ye feel strongly about this why not all VETO it and battle out with the Italian Teams as Bridgend and Neath etc because if ye met a GP team in this era never mind Munster/Leinster/Top 14 team ye'd do well to hold them in this day and age

Hey Connacht might even get in H'Cup :lol: Althought on 2nd thoughts nobody can go that bad ......... Can they? B)[/b]

well Cardiff did get to the first final of the HEC and Llanelli got to the semis in 2000 so that arguement is pretty redundant.
[/b][/quote]

I know that but if you read carefully you'd notice i said in this day and age as i was aware Llanelli were always constant threat but meant it with reference to Possible welsh teams againt todays squads in Ire, Eng & Fra

That how quick the game has moved in terms of proffesionalism and Regios had to be formed for wales to survive

 

[Blindside6]

We could argue back and forth forever about who is right or wrong and never get anywhere. Different sets of supporters have their own agendas.

For the forum members who are outside the 'goldfish bowl' of Welsh Rugby you may be interested to take a look at the following site and read the version of events on there. Then ask yourselves again why the regions are struggling with attendances.

Ponty Rugby

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindside6 @ Oct 1 2009, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

We could argue back and forth forever about who is right or wrong and never get anywhere.[/b]

I dont think there is a right or wrong. If there is, you have to assume the authorities have f***ed it up (they always do) so the fans view are usually correct. With regards to Welsh and Scottish rugby you guys are the only ones who really understand it and you guys are the only ones who can sort it out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

just interested in how Leinster have done it[/b]

A combination of perfect circumstances. A reasonably successful or competitive International team (for the first time in the history of our game) and the introduction of some real homegrown superstars into the teams. Ulster and then Munsters success in the HEC. An excellent marketing team and the easy availability of seasontickets to the masses. A decent stadium (I say decent, its not Thomand Park) with decent facilities smack bang in the city centre.

The things is I dont think this is that successful yet. Granted our season ticket sales have stayed steady (or maybe gone up a little) even during the worst economic times this country has ever seen, but Dublin (or the greater Dublin area) has a population in or around 1.5million so I'd I fully expect us to outgrow the RDS in a few years. Even if it is well behind bogball, Hurling and poofball rugby is a hugely popular sport in Irelan at the moment.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindside6 @ Oct 1 2009, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ponty Rugby[/b]

A good read that. Explains a bit.

 

[AlisterLees]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 1 2009, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindside6 @ Oct 1 2009, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We could argue back and forth forever about who is right or wrong and never get anywhere.[/b]

I dont think there is a right or wrong. If there is, you have to assume the authorities have f***ed it up (they always do) so the fans view are usually correct. With regards to Welsh and Scottish rugby you guys are the only ones who really understand it and you guys are the only ones who can sort it out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edinburgh Shark @ Sep 30 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

just interested in how Leinster have done it[/b]

A combination of perfect circumstances. A reasonably successful or competitive International team (for the first time in the history of our game) and the introduction of some real homegrown superstars into the teams. Ulster and then Munsters success in the HEC. An excellent marketing team and the easy availability of seasontickets to the masses. A decent stadium (I say decent, its not Thomand Park) with decent facilities smack bang in the city centre.

The things is I dont think this is that successful yet. Granted our season ticket sales have stayed steady (or maybe gone up a little) even during the worst economic times this country has ever seen, but Dublin (or the greater Dublin area) has a population in or around 1.5million so I'd I fully expect us to outgrow the RDS in a few years. Even if it is well behind bogball, Hurling and poofball rugby is a hugely popular sport in Irelan at the moment.
[/b][/quote]

Thanks for this Logorrhea, wasn't aware of the catchment area / size. In Scotland only Glasgow could compare but over there if it's not Old Firm it's hardly considered sport.

Was over in Cork in the summer for the Sale friendly and having been to the old Thomond Park I'd love either facility in Edinburgh. Unfortunately the only chance of a decent ground is a part deal with the council that would then involve a running track, etc. With our trams grabbing any cash there is I simply don't even see this as an option for the foreseeable. If we could get nearer 10k in Murrayfield positioned on both sides of the pitch then I'd be happy but we're a long way off there yet.