Maro Itoje - the greatest rugby player of all time, is he there already?

[Vieux Talonneur]

The way Cips career has gone has been a big disappointment. When he burst on the scene he was doing things others couldn't and making older more experienced players look stupid. Brilliant to watch, partly talent, partly bravado. But he had terminal flaws - his defence and seemingly his attitude, both of which have been partly addressed but still rear their ugly heads.

Ford's defence likewise means that he'll never be the complete package. The rest of his game can be excellent, although in my book Cips best is better.

They both can produce eye catching moments of brilliance, but those may win 5 out of 100 tests. Their flaws will lose a similar number. Carter in recent years has shown what the 10 is all about - just doing the right thing for the team time after time, nailing his kicks, pulling the strings for others, but very seldom seeking the audacious personal option. And that is why Slade excites me - he has a cool temperament, is physical enough and can both attack and defend - there are no obvious flaws that won't be ironed out through time and experience. And unlike Farrell Ford or Cips he can cover a number of positions to a high standard.

And I think that's also why people are excited about Itoje as he too seems a well rounded player with no obvious areas of weakness and huge potential. Lots of people, me included, got seduced by Lawes big hits in the early days and overlooked for instance his tendency to lose the ball in contact which continues to this day.

 

[McTallshort]

Bro? What's that an Irish thing

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Bro? What's that an Irish thing

Aye! Not Celtic though!

 

[McTallshort]

The way Cips career has gone has been a big disappointment. When he burst on the scene he was doing things others couldn't and making older more experienced players look stupid. Brilliant to watch, partly talent, partly bravado. But he had terminal flaws - his defence and seemingly his attitude, both of which have been partly addressed but still rear their ugly heads.

Ford's defence likewise means that he'll never be the complete package. The rest of his game can be excellent, although in my book Cips best is better.

They both can produce eye catching moments of brilliance, but those may win 5 out of 100 tests. Their flaws will lose a similar number. Carter in recent years has shown what the 10 is all about - just doing the right thing for the team time after time, nailing his kicks, pulling the strings for others, but very seldom seeking the audacious personal option. And that is why Slade excites me - he has a cool temperament, is physical enough and can both attack and defend - there are no obvious flaws that won't be ironed out through time and experience. And unlike Farrell Ford or Cips he can cover a number of positions to a high standard.

And I think that's also why people are excited about Itoje as he too seems a well rounded player with no obvious areas of weakness and huge potential. Lots of people, me included, got seduced by Lawes big hits in the early days and overlooked for instance his tendency to lose the ball in contact which continues to this day.

Carter is a once in a generation player possibly once in a lifetime. To compare other to him will always led to disappointment.

 

[Peat]

I wasn't following rugby at the time of Cipriani's emergence but would completely agree with everyone saying the hype around Ford was huge compared to Slade although to a certain degree, what followed Ford was less hype and more awe at his achievements. He was playing in Premiership play-offs back when Slade hadn't even played for England U20.

I'd also point out that Slade made his surge for the World Cup as a centre and it's arguable whether he's even nailed down a Premiership starting spot at fly-half.

I don't remember *that* much hype about Lawes either. Excitement, yes, because he was our first non-stodgy lock in ages, and there was certainly some hype, but it was pretty clear at the time of his debut that he was pretty raw and had some serious gym-time to put in. Launchbury looked a lot more complete from the beginning.

It was meant to be ironic due to the idea of the post. Maybe lost without tone on the Internet.

The irony was certainly lost on me - and if being on this forum has taught me anything, it's that irony can indeed be inflammatory. I'd like this England-Wales match to go relatively smoothly.

 

[McTallshort]

Cipriani was hyped but at the time he was playing for the best team in Europe as the playmaker so it was fair hype although a number of very ordinary Wasps players got capped around that time because of the success Wasps had. Cips played well for England then broke his leg, was rushed in too quick on his return and didn't have the mental strength at that age to deal with it but he was still very young at the time. After that he drifted from team to team occasionally showing his brilliance occasionally showing he was a plonker. I always thought he was a busted flush but I honestly now believe he should be in the England team and should have taken Burgess place last WC.

Lawes wash hyped too much by England but the Aussies seemed obsessed with him. England beat Australia while England were on tour (ben youngs scored a fabulous try) and the Aussies made a big thing about Lawes who had an excellent tour. Aussies seem to love English second rows.

 

[Ospreylian]

Itoje sets standards that we mere fans cannot comprehend.

Itoje will take England into the promised land.

"What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?"

"No, Maro. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready... you won't have to"

 

[RedruthRFC]

Was Lawes hyped?

I remember people hyping his big hits, but not particularly him as a player. Certainly not got the level of interest that Launch and Itoje have.

I'm pretty sure he was as I remember falling for it. Either that or I concluded that he had a pretty high ceiling of my own accord and set myself up for disappointment. I still say that Itoje has a higher ceiling as a 6 than a lock.

 

[psychic duck]

People are really forgetting how good Cipriani was before his leg break.
He was better than Slade at the same age, easily, and I'm a huge fan of Slade

This is true. He was simply superb when he first broke through for Wasps around 2007 to 2008 season, made the 2007 RWC training squad as a teenager, and played like a complete boss in his first start against Ireland.

It's true he wasn't the same player after his leg break, didn't seem to fit in with Johnson, and the move to the Melbourne Rebels alongside Beale and O'Connor seemed to make all three amazing young talents go completely off the rails, and it took him a while to get going at Sale. But it's revisionist to forget how good he was in his first year of rugby.

 

[RedruthRFC]

There are too many variables to ever be able to accurately predict who is going to be world class. Talent is just one of them - even if your assessment of Slade's talent is 100% accurate, you have no idea how personality, coaching, injuries, personal circumstances, the whims of selectors and other factors might affect his future.

There's a lot more luck in the world, and in sport, than people like to admit. For example, the International Monetary Fund conducted a study of international cricketers, studying various statistical trends to analyse the role of luck in determining success. Batsmen making their debut at home had a higher average by 30% (I think ... can't remember exact figure). Different sport, but that shows an incredible degree of variation in success based on one seemingly arbitrary fact.

Everyone remembers that Jonny Wilkinson was predicted for greatness from very early on. You have to remember that so were a load of names listed above, and any number of other players who turned out to be duds.

Good post. I'm not saying that my understanding is brilliant, but forums like this one illustrate how poor many people's grasp of probability is when they do things like category state that a particular outcome will happen (as opposed to is likely to happen). Your post does a good job of explaining that things are rarely cut and dry.

I'm amazed we've made it this far into this thread without anyone mentioning Ben Sturnham! I remember the hype surrounding Chris Jones, but the hype around Ben Sturnham around 1998 was crazy, I'm pretty sure he was compared to Jonah Lomu! His career ending injury is a good example of why there's no guarantee of gifted players going on to greatness.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Carter is a once in a generation player possibly once in a lifetime. To compare other to him will always led to disappointment.

Fair point, and everyone has their own ability ceiling. I was just suggesting that DC was a great model for others to aspire to with all round excellence (ie working harder on eliminating weaknesses rather than developing existing strengths) and putting the team needs first. If someone works to fulfil those principles to the best of their ability you can't ask for any more.

 

[nickdnz]

A few players come to mind for me in terms of England wingers.

Poor James Simpson-Daniel. Injuries and seemingly no luck with selectors put one of the most creative players I have ever seen in an England shirt - get 10 caps...

In 2008 Topsy Ojo scored two tries in a match against the All Blacks in his first match, to then get dropped by Johnson seemingly over a late night incident in NZ. All of the other players involved featured for England again except Ojo.

For me the most exciting talent I have seen from England at youth level is Christian Wade. I remember thinking that he along with Julian Savea were the two most exciting wingers I had ever seen in a junior tournament. I think if he was in the NZ system he'd genuinely be pushing for the ABs right now.

 

[Raggs]

Wade has suffered with defensive frailties, and poorly timed injuries.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Good post. I'm not saying that my understanding is brilliant, but forums like this one illustrate how poor many people's grasp of probability is when they do things like category state that a particular outcome will happen (as opposed to is likely to happen). Your post does a good job of explaining that things are rarely cut and dry.

I'm amazed we've made it this far into this thread without anyone mentioning Ben Sturnham! I remember the hype surrounding Chris Jones, but the hype around Ben Sturnham around 1998 was crazy, I'm pretty sure he was compared to Jonah Lomu! His career ending injury is a good example of why there's no guarantee of gifted players going on to greatness.

If you have enjoyed this post, why not try "Luck: What it is and Why it Matters" by Ed Smith. An interesting book, all about how blind chance effects so much in sport and life (he's a former pro cricketer so comes at everything from a sport angle) and I have read it recently so it strongly coloured that post.

 

[j'nuh]

"What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?"

"No, Maro. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready... you won't have to"

"You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up at Sarries and play boring rugby for a boring team. You take the red pill, you stay with England, and I show you by how much we can beat Wales."

 

[The Coach]

Carter is a once in a generation player possibly once in a lifetime. To compare other to him will always led to disappointment.

Except for Andy Goode

 

[Canuck]

A few players come to mind for me in terms of England wingers.

Poor James Simpson-Daniel. Injuries and seemingly no luck with selectors put one of the most creative players I have ever seen in an England shirt - get 10 caps...

In 2008 Topsy Ojo scored two tries in a match against the All Blacks in his first match, to then get dropped by Johnson seemingly over a late night incident in NZ. All of the other players involved featured for England again except Ojo.

For me the most exciting talent I have seen from England at youth level is Christian Wade. I remember thinking that he along with Julian Savea were the two most exciting wingers I had ever seen in a junior tournament. I think if he was in the NZ system he'd genuinely be pushing for the ABs right now.

In terms of size/speed combo, Tom Varndell was one of the great potential wingers I've ever seen, 1.88m, 101 kg with ran a 10.8 second 100m when he was just 18. Has scored three tries in four tests (including scores against Australia and New Zealand) but could never stick with the England side and wasn't really given much of a chance with only 1 test selection after the age of 21.

He had lapses on defense and poor positioning but was still a prolific scoring option, I would have assumed he would improve on those weaknesses and regained a spot on the national team at some time but it never happened. Has carved out an impressive career at the Premiership level but I definitely consider him a bit of a wasted talent internationally.

 

[Slamdunk]

It was meant to be ironic due to the idea of the post. Maybe lost without tone on the Internet.

It sure was lost without tone. You accidentally came across as beinga little bitter . The post was about the media hype not the player. We dont actually have the same level issues in Wales hype wise but only because there is essentially only one newspaper. They exist though, cant deny that. The national media reports essentially on all things England, so your players get hit hard.

Im sure you meant well but possibly failed in your interpretation of ironic

 

[bertiec]

Varndell was only good with no one in front of him. Always looked suspect in defence and dodgy in front of any reasonable defence. Croft now that's another matter, not much slower that varndell but offers so much more. It's a pity his sick record lets him down. Still think he is an England poss.

 

[The Jones Boy]

ITOJE looks like a really good debutante and bodes well for the future