Loxton and Jarvis not Irish qualified

[profitius]

Its bad from a Connacht point of view. Its unlikely they'd be good enough for Ireland if the Welsh are letting them go but maybe they can make a difference for Connacht. It does effect Connacht in the signing of NIQ players though. No harm if you ask me. They sign plenty of journey men.

 

[Peat]

What loophole?
A country has two 'national sides' that players can be locked in from. If it is an A side, that is fine. U20's is also fine, as it is passed the age of majority. If it went for all U20 sides, then A sides should be made invalid.

Thieving? Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape- two great English names there.

It takes one to know one!

And some might say that. The IRB might (or might not, we don't know yet) say that. Others might say, quite reasonably, that as an U20 team has age restrictions it is an age grade side and can't possibly be considered a senior side. There are differences. Tom Prydie for example could be insured to play full international rugby before he could be insured to play for the U20s. There is certainly a case here.

Whatever happens, I find this to be a ridiculous discrepency. Either all U20 sides should count, or none. Whether you have an A side should be completely irrelevant. What's more, only certain matches would trigger the "second senior side" clause, because if they play against a team that is not considered the second senior side of their nation, then it wasn't a binding fixture. So its only the French side that matches against count! And maybe not even them any more as they fielded an A side last summer.

If being bound to your country by appearing for a team at a level where they are not bound in the majority of other countries in the rugby world and only in a handful of specific fixtures that appear in the rugby calender isn't a loophole, I don't know what is.

Might find one of the Ellis brothers actually played for Wales before England

Ah, but nobody's ever suggested U16 locks in a player. Where as U20 can now potentially. I would consider it highly hypocritical of the WRU to regard either player as eligble for international selection now.

 

[Draggs]

Its not hypocritical.
Wales second team= U20
England's second team= Saxons

I too think it should be changed, personally. 'A' side or nothing, for second team. That being said, the IRB cannot go back and revoke all U20 caps for Wales to make them eligible, unless they do it for all countries.

Also, about the playing against a non 'second senior side' I pointed out earlier that Jarvis played for Wales in the U20 World Championship, which counts as "n
International Tour which includes an International Match or Matches
approved by the IRB" [8.3c]

So, unless the IRB revoke ALL second side caps worldwide, Jarvis and Loxton will only represent Wales.

 

[Peat]

Or just rule Wales were incorrect to put down an age grade team as a senior team and state therefore they couldn't have bound, therefore leaving all real second sides free and fine. Easy peasy.

And a lawyer could happily point out that a World Cup is not a Tour. That would be utter semantics of course, but thats what lawyers are paid to do. I suspect the real bulk of the objection there would be that just because the IRB approve of the JWC doesn't mean they approve of it as an international match binding a player to a country. How could they if not all of the unions involved agree it binds their players?

Certainly, if the JWC counts, the U20 Six Nations should count - and if they don't, the semantics of what the World Cup is does actually become pertinent again imo - and the person I was talking to this seemed fairly sure the U20 Six Nations games don't count (save France) so...

 

[dullonien]

The main problem as I see it is that the rules should apply across the board. It's a little unfair on players that for one country it ties them in, but the exact same scenario for another country doesn't. Because Wales have no A-team, we should be deemed that we have no 'second senior team'. This also get's a little more confusing when it comes to the age of players playing at U20. How about 17 y/o's, are they of 'age of maturity', or is it 18? Pretty sure some players playing U20 are 17, Kristian Phillips was wasn't he at the beginning?

I know players should know their country of allegionce by this age, but they should be told beforehand.

It's obvious that the WRU knew about this, as they were the ones who informed Connacht. Why the hell weren't they informing their own players???

Why doesn't the 7's count as Wales' second senior team?

Its not hypocritical.
So, unless the IRB revoke ALL second side caps worldwide, Jarvis and Loxton will only represent Wales.

Not really, would be quite easy for them to just decide that U20's can't count as a 'senior team' as it has age restrictions as Peat has pointed out. Doubt there'd be much uproar about it.

 

[Shaggy]

it's really irrelevant what we think the rules should be, they've been the same since the year 2000 at least ... the argument about all U20's side should qualify as well as the A sides, and its tough luck if you don't have an A side, is flawed IMO, because it means that some unions end up protecting more players than others.

You can't tell me that someone at Ulster didn't know to check with the WRU or the IRB, or that the player's agents don't know this stuff ...

Here's the relevant section on the next 15 from the IRB regulations, regulation 8 ... as you can see, the next 15 remains the same for a period of 4 years, surely professional rugby players, player's agents, clubs, administrators, etc ... know which teams these are, or know where to find out

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/28/42328_pdf.pdf

6. How do I know which team is a Union's next senior fifteen-a-side
National Representative Team?
There should be no uncertainty over which team constitutes a Union's
next fifteen-a-side senior National Representative Team since, as from
January 1 2000, Unions are required to notify the IRB of the name of its
nominated next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team. The
team nominated remains the Union's next fifteen-a-side senior National
Representative Team for a period of 4 years. The identity of a Union's
next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team can be verified
with the Union concerned and/or the IRB.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Neither player was ever going to play for Ireland anyway. If they were coveted they would have signed for a bigger province. Saying they were Irish qualified was just to get around the NIQ limit in much the same way that Leinster "superstar" Ben Prescott was also Irish qualified.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Or just rule Wales were incorrect to put down an age grade team as a senior team and state therefore they couldn't have bound, therefore leaving all real second sides free and fine. Easy peasy.

And a lawyer could happily point out that a World Cup is not a Tour. That would be utter semantics of course, but thats what lawyers are paid to do. I suspect the real bulk of the objection there would be that just because the IRB approve of the JWC doesn't mean they approve of it as an international match binding a player to a country. How could they if not all of the unions involved agree it binds their players?

Certainly, if the JWC counts, the U20 Six Nations should count - and if they don't, the semantics of what the World Cup is does actually become pertinent again imo - and the person I was talking to this seemed fairly sure the U20 Six Nations games don't count (save France) so...

Top paragraph is utter shite, if you do that you open a can of worms, brings into contention the validity of international caps and not only that it could potentially lead to an international transfer market, also a good lawyer would be able to argue that a JWC is a tour!

 

[Logorrhea]

Cant see the age grade thing holding up but as Tarbh said, its kinda pointless.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Cant see the age grade thing holding up but as Tarbh said, its kinda pointless.

Tarbh? Not here and no the age grade thing is not pointless in this circumstance. What is pointless is the fact the Irish are moaning about it wanting Welsh rejects to fill their sides.

it's really irrelevant what we think the rules should be, they've been the same since the year 2000 at least ... the argument about all U20's side should qualify as well as the A sides, and its tough luck if you don't have an A side, is flawed IMO, because it means that some unions end up protecting more players than others.

You can't tell me that someone at Ulster didn't know to check with the WRU or the IRB, or that the player's agents don't know this stuff ...

Here's the relevant section on the next 15 from the IRB regulations, regulation 8 ... as you can see, the next 15 remains the same for a period of 4 years, surely professional rugby players, player's agents, clubs, administrators, etc ... know which teams these are, or know where to find out

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/28/42328_pdf.pdf

6. How do I know which team is a Union's next senior fifteen-a-side
National Representative Team?
There should be no uncertainty over which team constitutes a Union's
next fifteen-a-side senior National Representative Team since, as from
January 1 2000, Unions are required to notify the IRB of the name of its
nominated next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team. The
team nominated remains the Union's next fifteen-a-side senior National
Representative Team for a period of 4 years. The identity of a Union's
next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team can be verified
with the Union concerned and/or the IRB.

Or some unions cannot afford to run an A-Side ... quite simple. If Wales could afford it then we would have an A-Side. Point is that Wales next senior side is Wales U20 ... like it or lump it im afraid.

What's worrying is that most of the Irish here want them to move which in the end could come back to haunt them in the future regarding their players. Then we shall see them moaning when it happens and say its unjust.

 

[Peat]

Odd then how the person saying the most its unjust and potentially legally challengable is English. And odd how dullonien, who is Welsh, can grasp the point of the objection about whether an age grade side can be construed as senior. If you honestly can't, fine, I don't care enough about the argument to walk you through.

The point about whether an U20 side can be deemed senior, and whether it is fair and consistent for U20 caps from one nation to hold more weight than U20 caps from another, is one that should not rest on nationality. I oppose it, because it strikes me as absolutely ludicrous and quite unfair. I can appreciate there are difficulties for sides who can't afford A sides but if Scotland can afford one, I'm pretty sure Wales could if they really wanted to.

Anyway, I doubt the IRFU will be that bothered, they've already got the Ruddocks and Maguire out of the taffs and now know to aim a little younger in their poaching. Expect to see a bunch of Leprechauns at the next Wales U19 and U18 games sidling up to the best players and saying "So, did your granny like a pint of guiness then?"

 

[lynam1104]

Odd then how the person saying the most its unjust and potentially legally challengable is English. And odd how dullonien, who is Welsh, can grasp the point of the objection about whether an age grade side can be construed as senior. If you honestly can't, fine, I don't care enough about the argument to walk you through.

The point about whether an U20 side can be deemed senior, and whether it is fair and consistent for U20 caps from one nation to hold more weight than U20 caps from another, is one that should not rest on nationality. I oppose it, because it strikes me as absolutely ludicrous and quite unfair. I can appreciate there are difficulties for sides who can't afford A sides but if Scotland can afford one, I'm pretty sure Wales could if they really wanted to.

Anyway, I doubt the IRFU will be that bothered, they've already got the Ruddocks and Maguire out of the taffs and now know to aim a little younger in their poaching. Expect to see a bunch of Leprechauns at the next Wales U19 and U18 games sidling up to the best players and saying "So, did your granny like a pint of guiness then?"

Quote of the week if not month

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Odd then how the person saying the most its unjust and potentially legally challengable is English. And odd how dullonien, who is Welsh, can grasp the point of the objection about whether an age grade side can be construed as senior. If you honestly can't, fine, I don't care enough about the argument to walk you through.

The point about whether an U20 side can be deemed senior, and whether it is fair and consistent for U20 caps from one nation to hold more weight than U20 caps from another, is one that should not rest on nationality. I oppose it, because it strikes me as absolutely ludicrous and quite unfair. I can appreciate there are difficulties for sides who can't afford A sides but if Scotland can afford one, I'm pretty sure Wales could if they really wanted to.

Anyway, I doubt the IRFU will be that bothered, they've already got the Ruddocks and Maguire out of the taffs and now know to aim a little younger in their poaching. Expect to see a bunch of Leprechauns at the next Wales U19 and U18 games sidling up to the best players and saying "So, did your granny like a pint of guiness then?"

Does not matter what Dull says or does, that his opinion. However at the age of 18 you are regarded as an adult in the rugby world as you can play senior rugby, so for me and a lot of others U20 rugby is senior rugby and not junior rugby. What you fail to grasp also which is simply amazing is the fact that if this was to be overturn it has a major and wider implication which will affect all senior and junior international caps ... does it stop in the future the like of Nacewa and co overturning their caps for their first country? It would start a chain reaction ... FACT that would bring about the start of an international transfer market! Can say all you like in response to its not senior rugby we are talking about but the implications are there im afraid!

Does not matter if Wales can or cannot afford one, simple matter they don't have one. The regulations are there and the WRU has done nothing wrong in this. Personally Loxton and Jarvis are not even good enough for Wales, so why is it such a concern for the Irish to take some cast-offs?

Joke all you want bog, but I always find it amusing when we we find on the board people who seem to declare themselves one nationality when they are infact another and support a club in another nation (nothing wrong with that btw)

 

[profitius]

Theres too much movement of players these days and its starting to make a mockery of international rugby. I don't mind players playing for countries where they had grandparents/parents because its in their blood but qualifying due to living in a country for a few years is a joke.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Theres too much movement of players these days and its starting to make a mockery of international rugby. I don't mind players playing for countries where they had grandparents/parents because its in their blood but qualifying due to living in a country for a few years is a joke.

Agree with this!

 

[Logorrhea]

Dont see what all the fuss is about. Cymro you seem to be getting a wee bit overexcited.

For certain players like the Ruddock brothers its worth getting upset about, though there is no case, for others it would barely register.

I personally dont believe the U20 stance will hold up, you sxeem confident it will. Personally I dont think it'll ever come to any of us really caring.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Dont see what all the fuss is about. Cymro you seem to be getting a wee bit overexcited.

For certain players like the Ruddock brothers its worth getting upset about, though there is no case, for others it would barely register.

I personally dont believe the U20 stance will hold up, you sxeem confident it will. Personally I dont think it'll ever come to any of us really caring.

Ruddock boys always stated they wanted to play for Ireland after their treatment of their father, which I agree with their stance. Not to my knowledge did either represent Wales U20 so they were fine to join Ireland. However both were born in Ireland, only schooled in Wales, so really they were Irish.

 

[Draggs]

Joke all you want bog, but I always find it amusing when we we find on the board people who seem to declare themselves one nationality when they are infact another and support a club in another nation (nothing wrong with that btw)

Perhaps the forum should have some nationality requirement.
The question is, has anyone here played U20's?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

has anyone here played U20's?

For Lansdowne. If South County Dublin ever declares independence from the rest of Ireland, I'll be tied to them.

 

[Draggs]

For Lansdowne. If South County Dublin ever declares independence from the rest of Ireland, I'll be tied to them.

But did you know you would be tied?