Irish accused of aiding All Black defections

[smartcooky]

Cookies suggestion could well work but its a two way committment. If I read it right, he is looking to get players to sign incentive based contracts where the initial sign up would be over 3-4 years (Club level), and that contract would automatically extend based on progression to Super 15 and again at International.I just cant see it standing up legally.

No legal problems at all. Maybe in Europe with your European Court, but their shonky rulings like Kolpak and Bosman do no apply in this country.

The players always have a choice; they can turn down the Super Rugby contract and elect to see out the remaining term of their ITM Cup contract (or buy out of it) then head overseas if they wish.

Same applies if they take up a Super Rugby contract, then later in their career, get selected for the All Blacks. The prerequisite before setting foot on the field in their first test is a signature on a new four-year contract.

Somwhere along the lines, these players are going to have to be given a choice, and they will follow the money, especially when its 3-4 times what they are currently earning.

I not sure it would work is all.

The idea is not keep them here if they don't want to stay; its to make whoever offers them a contract also pay the NZRU for the money they have spent on developing that player to that point.

The NZRU has just posted a large loss, and an appreciable part of that loss was the cost of running the ITM Cup. Unlike Europe and the UK, in New Zealand, we don't have the multi-billion dollar corporations that can underwrite a 14 team professional competition, so the NZRU pays for most of it. They created the NPC, which is the stage on which the whole world sees these players perform. They pour resources (money) into these players, who should acquire a value commensurate with the money the NZRU put in. If that player decides to play elsewhere, the NZRU should be entitled to claw some of its investment back.

This is no different to what the Aviva Premiership Clubs do with the RFU; they get a very big kickback from the RFU for the use of their players. Some Premiership clubs would not survive financially without the money they get from the RFU - its often the difference between them only being in the crap financially, or having the receiver on the doorstep.

 

[smartcooky]

In this particular instance it just means that a talented young Irish player will not have that huge amount of time and money spent on developing him, it'll be given to a New Zealand player. If less opportunities are given in the UK and Ireland to young players from that part of the world, then the local talent in that part of the world will just have one less chance to come through.

Exactly! Ireland has four teams in the Magners league. They have some players playing in other competitions, but the great majority of Ireland's players come from Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht. There are four starting hooker positions. If two of them come from NZ and South Africa, that leaves two places for Irish players. Apply that across all the positions in all four teams, and you'll see what Tony Johnson is talking about. Every time an Irish provincial team has a Kiwi, and Aussie or a South African in their team, those players are blocking the progression of a Irish player; they are cutting down your choice of players.

Ask any employer and they will tell you the same thing... if you advertise a position in your company, and only three people apply, you are going to have a much lower chance of getting a top quality applicant, than if you have thirty apply.

it's a little like what happens to the England in the Premier League in one respect. Who knows how good England would be for example if they pretty much only had English players in it. The style of their national game would take up a character of it's own, not just a worldwide melting pot of already developed talent where local juniors become fewer and harder to invest confidence in.

Hasn't been that way since about 1966... the last time they won the World Cup

 

[Peat]

It's bullshat that foreign players weaken the Irish team. A mass of them would, and there are a few positions where it is fair to point and say "This is weakening the national side" - actually, wait, just one, Tighthead. Even then, Ireland's weakness at Tighthead has more to do with Kidney's absurd logic that a prop doesn't need to be able to scrum, than the foreigners.

But everywhere else, they provide a huge core of experience and quality for the rest of the players to learn from. BJ Botha has basically been Ulster's scrum coach; he's brought on Tom Court, Declan Fitzpatrick and Paddy McAllister a huge amount. iHumph's game has really taken off since playing next to Pienaar, and it must have been an incredible experience for Paddy Jackson to play next to him. Can't have done Nevin Spence any harm, nor Dan Tuohy any harm to play next to Muller. And alright, Wannenburg has pushed Anderson out of Ulster but he's simply not good enough, and Pienaar keeps Marshall on the bench but he's not good enough yet either. And so on at other provinces. Elsom played a great part in instilling a fighting spirit at Leinster, while it must be great for the likes of Kearney jr and Conway to learn from Nacewa.

This year's Ireland U20 team had the highest number of players with provincial experience in some time. The foreigners are not blocking their pathway. If they're good enough, they play, and they learn a lot by playing with the best.

 

[profitius]

Johnny Sexton was 3rd choice in Leinster at the start of the 08/09 season. Thats the season they won the HEC. Only injuries to Contepomi and Nacewa playing poorly at 10 ment he got a chance and took it. But he is a better 10 than Contepomi yet couldn't get a game.

Mike Ross was third choice tighthead last season behind Van Der Linde and Stan Wright. VDL went home to South Africa and Wright got a serious injury early in the season and that ment Ross got to play. The more he played the better he has become.

Munster have a real lack of centers for the last decade but instead of fixing the problem they just signed foreign players all the time. The easy option. Connacht have signed some real journeymen over the years while theres better players in the all Ireland leagues. For years Irish teams ignored the prop situation because Hayes and Horan could hold their own at international level and the other provinces just signed foreigners. Another easy way out.

Signing non Irish players can be good but there are downsides to it. The likes of Doug Howlett, De Villiers, Nacewa, Stan Wright, Pienaar, Botha, Warwick etc have added to the provinces but some have not. They'll be reducing the number by 1 after next season. I think 3 would be ideal.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Good post profitius but I disagree with some points.

Munster have a real lack of centers for the last decade but instead of fixing the problem they just signed foreign players all the time.

Which budding internationals did Halstead, Connolly, Mafi, De Villiers and Tipoki block? If Munster can't produce a centre, why should they be penalised by having to pick an inadequate Irish player? By all means they could look at "poaching" a player from another province but they shouldn't be forced to pick somebody who's not good enough just because he's born in Midleton, Nenagh, Castletroy or somewhere else in the province.

A possible solution is more player trading between the provinces. For example, Munster need a centre and a backrow. Leinster need a second row and depth at prop and scrumhalf. Swapping Eoin O'Malley and Rhys Ruddock for Ian Nagle, Darragh Hurley and Duncan Williams could benefit both provinces and negate the need to sign players like Sam Tuitupou, Mariano Galarza and Clint Newland.

Signing non Irish players can be good but there are downsides to it. The likes of Doug Howlett, De Villiers, Nacewa, Stan Wright, Pienaar, Botha, Warwick etc have added to the provinces but some have not. They'll be reducing the number by 1 after next season. I think 3 would be ideal.

I disagree. Leinster for example have picked 50 players this season. 42 of those are Irish. I'd hardly say the current number of NIQs is blocking gametime for Irish players.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Exactly! Ireland has four teams in the Magners league. They have some players playing in other competitions, but the great majority of Ireland's players come from Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht. There are four starting hooker positions. If two of them come from NZ and South Africa, that leaves two places for Irish players. Apply that across all the positions in all four teams, and you'll see what Tony Johnson is talking about. Every time an Irish provincial team has a Kiwi, and Aussie or a South African in their team, those players are blocking the progression of a Irish player; they are cutting down your choice of players.

This just isn't how it works out I'm afraid. Look at Rocky Elsom for example. Came if for a season, massive asset for Leinster. With him around there was a noticeable improvement in the likes of Kev McLaughlin, Sean O'Brien and even Jamie Heaslip. Those guys learned from him, in fact he aided their development as players massively. Now Leinster have arguably the most back row depth in Europe, all of them being Irish. Johnny Sexton learned a great deal from Felipe Contepomi, as did Keith Earls from playing along side Doug Howlett and so on.

What you've got to understand is that Ireland doesn't have the same flow of talent as New Zealand. It's all well and good saying things like Richard Strauss is blocking the progress of Jason Harris Wright, but it's obvious that Harris Wright is never going to be good enough to be part of the international side. It's better for Irish rugby to have a few big foreign names in the provinces, helping the teams succeed at the highest levels thereby exposing the lads to higher levels of rugby, as well as imparting their knowledge to youngsters, than to have journeyman Irish players holding the team back. Who are John Afoa and BJ Botha going to be holding back? There aren't very promising TH's coming out of either Ulster or Munster atm I'm afraid. Better to have those teams be able to compete than end up in a situation like the Scottish franchises where your best players are in teams that can't get out of their Heineken Cup groups.

In saying that, there are some positions that we have to keep an eye on. I know the no. 10 jersey is regulated after how poor our options got in the middle of the last decade. An eye should also be kept on TH and quite possibley second row.

Mike Ross was third choice tighthead last season behind Van Der Linde and Stan Wright. VDL went home to South Africa and Wright got a serious injury early in the season and that ment Ross got to play. The more he played the better he has become.

This is a commonly held misconception. Ross featured in 21 games for the first team last year. Fact was that he was out of shape and pretty poor when he did feature. He's been a revelation this year.

On the Connacht issue, what players in the AIL are you suggesting are better? Do you seriously think that Connacht wouldn't have had a look at them?

 

[profitius]

Good post profitius but I disagree with some points.

Which budding internationals did Halstead, Connolly, Mafi, De Villiers and Tipoki block? If Munster can't produce a centre, why should they be penalised by having to pick an inadequate Irish player? By all means they could look at "poaching" a player from another province but they shouldn't be forced to pick somebody who's not good enough just because he's born in Midleton, Nenagh, Castletroy or somewhere else in the province.

A possible solution is more player trading between the provinces. For example, Munster need a centre and a backrow. Leinster need a second row and depth at prop and scrumhalf. Swapping Eoin O'Malley and Rhys Ruddock for Ian Nagle, Darragh Hurley and Duncan Williams could benefit both provinces and negate the need to sign players like Sam Tuitupou, Mariano Galarza and Clint Newland.

Thats true but my point was that Munster have neglected the development of centers down through the years. They should have been scouting for players all along. The players they brought in were blocking nobody because there was nobody to block. I do think it might be changing now though. Time will tell. I think Munster need to sign centers for the time being and hopefully sort things out at underage.

I disagree. Leinster for example have picked 50 players this season. 42 of those are Irish. I'd hardly say the current number of NIQs is blocking gametime for Irish players.

Theres about 6 NIQ players but they've managed to block Sexton and Ross in the past. People talk about McFadden and O'Malley not being given a chance to take kicks either because Nacewa takes them when Sexton doesn't. If McFadden was taking kicks all the time his would give Ireland more options. Down through the years Irish players were just not good enough so the 6 NIQ player quota was designed for a different era I think.

I don't think it should be 3 straight away though. Give it another 3 or 4 years. There should be enough quality in the country by then.

 

[profitius]

. Who are John Afoa and BJ Botha going to be holding back? There aren't very promising TH's coming out of either Ulster or Munster atm I'm afraid. Better to have those teams be able to compete than end up in a situation like the Scottish franchises where your best players are in teams that can't get out of their Heineken Cup groups.

Alan Cotter helped destroy the Cork Con scrum in the AIL semi last weekend. Hes in the Munster academy at the moment. Ulster have some promising props as well. We won't know how good they are until they're given a chance. Thats the whole point. Botha will be good for Munster though judging by clips of him coaching on youtube.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Alan Cotter helped destroy the Cork Con scrum in the AIL semi last weekend. Hes in the Munster academy at the moment. Ulster have some promising props as well. We won't know how good they are until they're given a chance. Thats the whole point. Botha will be good for Munster though judging by clips of him coaching on youtube.

We've seen in the past the damage that can be done by throwing a young prop in at the deep end. John Lynu being an example. You can't rely on 20 year old props for the entire season, they're just too young I'm afraid. You can do more damage than good and anyway, a modern rugby team needs more than one TH to progress does it not?

EDIT: I agree they need game time, but they shouldn't be first choice week in, week out.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The Non-Qualified players only work for the clubs if they are good enough. The likes of Elsom / Howlett are quality players who are respected players and are good role models for younger players. Its when NQ players are signed and they are dogshite and contribute nothing but taking up a spot of a promising player.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

They should have been scouting for players all along. The players they brought in were blocking nobody because there was nobody to block. I do think it might be changing now though. Time will tell. I think Munster need to sign centers for the time being and hopefully sort things out at underage.

This I agree with. It's not as though there are Munster born centres tearing it up with other teams. If young players don't have the skills, there's no point investing time in them. I'd rather see that time invested in players like Peter O'Mahoney, Paddy Butler, Simon Zebo and Ian Nagle. JJ Hanrahan is the first Munster centre in a long time who looks good enough to make it.

Theres about 6 NIQ players but they've managed to block Sexton and Ross in the past. People talk about McFadden and O'Malley not being given a chance to take kicks either because Nacewa takes them when Sexton doesn't. If McFadden was taking kicks all the time his would give Ireland more options. Down through the years Irish players were just not good enough so the 6 NIQ player quota was designed for a different era I think.

Sexton wasn't blocked though. If he wasn't good enough, why should he have been picked? Picking Sexton before he was ready would have had a negative impact on the other 10 or 11 Irishmen in the Leinster team. Net effect, Irish rugby suffers.

McFadden doesn't take kicks because Nacewa is better! Also by not having to worry about kicking practice as much, he's worked on other aspects of his game. Would you agree that his passing game and willingness to get involved have improved tenfold this season?

I don't think it should be 3 straight away though. Give it another 3 or 4 years. There should be enough quality in the country by then.

Perhaps. For now I'd be willing to drop the number of NIQs by one on the proviso that the provinces have total control who they pick. For example, if Richardt Strauss is a better bet at hooker than Sean Cronin, Joe Schmidt shouldn't be pressurised into picking the Irish player at Declan Kidney's whim.

 

[munstermuffin]

Simple points about NIQ players. If done smartly then it is vital it continues.
Sexton is a top class player now but few seasons ago he was at a crossroad and well alot of credit has to go to Contepomi who I understand was very helpful.
In my own experiences here in Munster -
John Langford changed the professionalism in Munster almost on his own which benefitted the whole squad.
Jim Williams has played a huge part in Wallace's, Leamy's and Quinlans careers.
I see it today Doug howlett helps Earls, Zebo and our young lads who learn from his attitude and approach.
Christian Cullen did plenty of work off pitch too.

And this doesn't just happen at Munster it all over Ireland. I don't agree with this argument that they're blocking an Irish player when a) We dont have a centre etc and b) The Irish lads are learning off these guys.

 

[smartcooky]

Various quotes

Which budding internationals did Halstead, Connolly, Mafi, De Villiers and Tipoki block?

You'll never know, because you didn't get a chance to see them play a season at the top level.

Thats true but my point was that Munster have neglected the development of centers down through the years. They should have been scouting for players all along. The players they brought in were blocking nobody because there was nobody to block.

How do you know that? Did you see any of the lower level players step up?

This just isn't how it works out I'm afraid. Look at Rocky Elsom for example. Came if for a season, massive asset for Leinster. With him around there was a noticeable improvement in the likes of Kev McLaughlin, Sean O'Brien and even Jamie Heaslip. Those guys learned from him, in fact he aided their development as players massively.

All of these tell me one important thing...you are looking at the "now", and not to the future. Imported players not only block the path of lower level players coming up, they also take a huge amount of resources (money) that could be be spent on developing local talent. Buying a top former international player from another country is a "quick fix" for the domestic team, but does nothing for your new young players. Ask the Aussies about the $millions they wasted buying former Rugby League stars for a "quick fix". Where are Matt Rogers, Wendell Sailor, Lote Tuquiri and Timana Tahu now?

Racing Metro look like they are offering ₣14½ million for Dan Carter. Thats £2m!! How many good #10's could be nurtured and developed with that kind of money? And they would ALL be eligible for France!!

What you've got to understand is that Ireland doesn't have the same flow of talent as New Zealand.

Exactly the point, and just exactly why do you think we have that flow of talent? Its because of two things;

1. Player development. We have a great academy system, one of the best being Murray Mexted's IRANZ. They have and some of the best rugby minds on the planet as coaches.

2. Doors open for our new talent when old talent leaves or retires. We don't fill those spots with imported players. When players like Matt Todd, Colin Slade, Sam Whitelock and the Franks Brothers suddenly appear on the scene, it takes the average NH fan and their media scribes by surprise. No surprise to us though; we have seen them come through at the lower levels, and their path to the top hasn't been blocked by foreign imports.

Read what English rugby commentator Nigel Starmer-Smith has to say about the last Junior Rugby Workd Cup

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/news/newsid=2039367.html

He makes a lot of important points, but he misses out the MOST important one of all.

The NZ Under 20 players were playing tough, week in week out rugby at the top level for their Provincial sides in the NPC. On the other hand, the none of the England side at the last JRWC could even hold down places in their Premiership or Championship (ND1) sides, a point that was not lost on the English commentators in the final in 2009.

Many of the NZ players at the last few JRWCs have come through into the top level; Israel Dagg, Sam Whitelock, Aaron Cruden, Daniel Kirkpatrick, Zac Guildford, Sean Maitland, Andre Taylor, Peter Saili, Julian Savea, Ben Afeaki, Quentin MacDonald, Nasi Manu, Kurt Baker, Ryan Crotty, Trent Renata, Mike Harris, Luke Braid, Kade Poki and more. All of these players have come through to Super Rugby, and some to test rugby.

How many Ireland Under 20 players are now starting in the Magners League or other European top level teams? Luke Marshall, Patrick Jackson and Craig Gilroy all of Ulster and Mark Dolan and Tiernan O'Halloran of Connacht are the only ones I can think of.

In France there are over 250 foreign players playing in the Top 14 and Pro D2. The are over 80 Kiwis playing in Europe, many of them like Carl Hayman & Nick Evans are holding down key positions. I don't know how many Yaapies and Aussies there are, but I would expect their numbers to be about the same or even greater. No matter how you slice it, this state of affairs cannot be good for the International game in those countries.

Finally here's a tip; a prediction if you like, and an example of what Tony Johnson is talking about.

Write this name down ... Luke Romano.

His door will open next year when Brad Thorn goes to Japan for his retirement package, in exactly the same way that it did for Jerome Kaino and Adam Thomson in 2008 when Ruben Thorne and Jerry Collins left NZ the year before.

Most of you NH posters have probably never heard of Luke Romano... but you will, and soon. You can take it to the bank!!

 

[lucky number 7]

W cant breed props for **** over here ...all the men built to that frame are generally all GAA players , In my school alone there are about 20 - 30 chaps who given a years training could be fantastic players ...but the hey difference is ... they couldn't give a **** about rugby whereas in your nation rugby always has and I hope always will be , King.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Various quotes


You'll never know, because you didn't get a chance to see them play a season at the top level.

They have been given chances though. The likes of Barry Murphy have shown that they're not up to the standard. Earls was given a change, but deemed not good enough at centre, while the other backs Munster have produced are Dowling and Hurley. They produce players and fill the gaps where the quality doesn't come through with imports. It's not like fifteen players come from the academy every year.

How do you know that? Did you see any of the lower level players step up?


All of these tell me one important thing...you are looking at the "now", and not to the future. Imported players not only block the path of lower level players coming up, they also take a huge amount of resources (money) that could be be spent on developing local talent.

No, I'm not. Leinster have produced in the past 3 season 3 capped back rows and one who is certain to be an international, all under 25. I'm not saying that these players are soley as a result of Rocky Elsom coming over, but he helped develop the likes of McLaughlin and O'Brien and set a standard for Leinster back rows. We bought a big international and are now set in that position for the next 8 years. Not looking at the future? hardly. Youngers learn lots of playing with world class players


Buying a top former international player from another country is a "quick fix" for the domestic team, but does nothing for your new young players. Ask the Aussies about the $millions they wasted buying former Rugby League stars for a "quick fix". Where are Matt Rogers, Wendell Sailor, Lote Tuquiri and Timana Tahu now?

It depends on how you spend your money. It can indeed be a quick fix, but it can also do a lot for player development. One need only look at the positive impact BJ Botha has had on his collegues up at Ulster. The likes of Paddy McAllister will have learned things from Botha that will stand him in good stead throughout his career. Good investment.

Racing Metro look like they are offering ₣14½ million for Dan Carter. Thats £2m!! How many good #10's could be nurtured and developed with that kind of money? And they would ALL be eligible for France!!

We're not talking about the French league though. I don't agree with what they're doing, but it's a different issue as you're looking at private clubs as opposed to union owned provinces.

Exactly the point, and just exactly why do you think we have that flow of talent? Its because of two things;

1. Player development. We have a great academy system, one of the best being Murray Mexted's IRANZ. They have and some of the best rugby minds on the planet as coaches.

2. Doors open for our new talent when old talent leaves or retires. We don't fill those spots with imported players. When players like Matt Todd, Colin Slade, Sam Whitelock and the Franks Brothers suddenly appear on the scene, it takes the average NH fan and their media scribes by surprise. No surprise to us though; we have seen them come through at the lower levels, and their path to the top hasn't been blocked by foreign imports.

Don't forget the value of tradition. A little side story to illustrate it. There are two hurling teams that boarder each other in Ireland, Kilkenny and Waterford. Both are hotbeds of the sports, with roughly approximate levels of interest, playing numbers and clubs. They both do well at under age level and have excellent coaches and development officers working with their kids. Despite this, Kilkenny have won 32 championships and Waterford 2. Tradition and expectation have as much an impact in terms of player production and quality as good coaching and playing numbers. Inexplicable to an extent, yet undeniably true.

Read what English rugby commentator Nigel Starmer-Smith has to say about the last Junior Rugby Workd Cup

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/news/newsid=2039367.html

He makes a lot of important points, but he misses out the MOST important one of all.

The NZ Under 20 players were playing tough, week in week out rugby at the top level for their Provincial sides in the NPC. On the other hand, the none of the England side at the last JRWC could even hold down places in their Premiership or Championship (ND1) sides, a point that was not lost on the English commentators in the final in 2009.

Many of the NZ players at the last few JRWCs have come through into the top level; Israel Dagg, Sam Whitelock, Aaron Cruden, Daniel Kirkpatrick, Zac Guildford, Sean Maitland, Andre Taylor, Peter Saili, Julian Savea, Ben Afeaki, Quentin MacDonald, Nasi Manu, Kurt Baker, Ryan Crotty, Trent Renata, Mike Harris, Luke Braid, Kade Poki and more. All of these players have come through to Super Rugby, and some to test rugby.

How many Ireland Under 20 players are now starting in the Magners League or other European top level teams? Luke Marshall, Patrick Jackson and Craig Gilroy all of Ulster and Mark Dolan and Tiernan O'Halloran of Connacht are the only ones I can think of.

It's not foreign players blocking them though. Here's the Irish under 20 team that played England in the 6 nations and the player playing in their position at their province:
15 - Michael Sherlock (Clontarf/Leinster) Isa Nacewa/Rob Kearney
14 - Tiernan O'Halloran (Galwegians/Connacht) Starting
13 - Alex Kelly (UCD/Leinster) Brian O'Driscoll
12 - JJ Hanrahan (UL Bohemians/Munster) Keith Earls/ Sam Tuitupou
11 - Andrew Boyle (UCD/Leinster) Luke Fitzgerald
10 - Cathal Marsh (Dublin University/Leinster) Johnny Sexton
9 - Blane McIlroy (Ballymena/Ulster) Ruan Pienaar
1 - James Tracy (UCD/Leinster) Cian Healy
2 - David Doyle (UCD/Leinster) Richard Strauss
3 - Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) Mike Ross
4 - Michael Kearney (Clontarf/Leinster) Leo Cullen
5 - Daniel Qualter (Buccaneers/Connacht) Andrew Browne
6 - Shane Buckley (Garryowen/Munster) Denis Leamy
7 - Aaron Conneely (Corinthians/Connacht) Johnny O'Connor
8 - Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) (capt) Jamie Heaslip

So out of fifteen, only 4 have foreigners starting ahead of them. One of them is soon to become Irish qualified. They don't get exposure because they aren't good enough to get past their Irish counterparts, not foreign competitors. It's a problem with distribution of talent across the 4 provinces, not one of too many NIQ's. A lot of people advocate loaning more young players to Connacht to get them game time, but it's a different issue so I wont go into it. To summerise, it's Irish players blocking the under 20's, not foreign imports.

In France there are over 250 foreign players playing in the Top 14 and Pro D2. The are over 80 Kiwis playing in Europe, many of them like Carl Hayman & Nick Evans are holding down key positions. I don't know how many Yaapies and Aussies there are, but I would expect their numbers to be about the same or even greater. No matter how you slice it, this state of affairs cannot be good for the International game in those countries.

Finally here's a tip; a prediction if you like, and an example of what Tony Johnson is talking about.

Write this name down ... Luke Romano.

His door will open next year when Brad Thorn goes to Japan for his retirement package, in exactly the same way that it did for Jerome Kaino and Adam Thomson in 2008 when Ruben Thorne and Jerry Collins left NZ the year before.

Most of you NH posters have probably never heard of Luke Romano... but you will, and soon. You can take it to the bank!!

I could say the exact same thing about Ian Nagle, Jamie Hagan, Dominic Ryan, etc. All young players, all getting their chance with their province. Well, except for maybe Nagle being arsed around by Munster.

.

 

[smartcooky]

That not the same team as I have listed

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/0309/1224291719819.html

Mike Sherlock (Clontarf - Leinster),
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon - Ulster)
Alex Kelly (UCD - Leinster)
Luke Marshall (Ballymena - Ulster)
Andrew Boyle (UCD - Leinster)
Patrick Jackson (Dungannon - Ulster)
Blane McIlroy (Ballymena - Ulster)
James Tracy (UCD - Leinster)
Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins - Ulster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne - Leinster)
Michael Kearney (Clontarf - Leinster)
Daniel Qualter (Buccaneers - Connacht)
Shane Buckley (Garryowen - Munster)
Aaron Conneely (Corinthians - Connacht)
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne - Leinster)
Replacements:
David Doyle (UCD - Leinster)
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf - Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Queens - Ulster)
Cathal O'Flaherty (Cork Con - Munster)
Mark Dolan (Corinthians - Connacht)
JJ Hanrahan (UL Bohemians - Munster)
Tiernan O'Halloran (Galwegians - Connacht)

 

[Feicarsinn]

That not the same team as I have listed

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/0309/1224291719819.html

Mike Sherlock (Clontarf - Leinster),
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon - Ulster)
Alex Kelly (UCD - Leinster)
Luke Marshall (Ballymena - Ulster)
Andrew Boyle (UCD - Leinster)
Patrick Jackson (Dungannon - Ulster)
Blane McIlroy (Ballymena - Ulster)
James Tracy (UCD - Leinster)
Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins - Ulster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne - Leinster)
Michael Kearney (Clontarf - Leinster)
Daniel Qualter (Buccaneers - Connacht)
Shane Buckley (Garryowen - Munster)
Aaron Conneely (Corinthians - Connacht)
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne - Leinster)
Replacements:
David Doyle (UCD - Leinster)
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf - Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Queens - Ulster)
Cathal O'Flaherty (Cork Con - Munster)
Mark Dolan (Corinthians - Connacht)
JJ Hanrahan (UL Bohemians - Munster)
Tiernan O'Halloran (Galwegians - Connacht)

That's the team that played against Wales. I did say England. That's entirely beside the point of the post though.

 

[Peat]

A few quick points...

None of the Ulster lads who played against Wales but didn't against England are being held back by foreigners except possibly Gilroy by Danielli and frankly Gilroy's taking his place already.

There aren't really any promising young props at Ulster, save for Paddy McAllister who sat on the bench for a HC QF aged 21 and has now started at least two Interpros and is quite clearly not being held back. Actually... slightly harsh. There's promising props, props who might make it. McAllister is the only stand out one there though. Right now, it is more important for Ulster's long term future, and the long term future of the group of young players coming through in the backs, to have a top class tighthead then muddle along hoping you were wrong about one of them.

Now,
Cymro's post on the last page was by far the most pertinent here. Players like Botha and Elsom who raise the players around them are excellent investments. Players like Timoci Nagusa, Borlase so far et al... aren't. But thats an indictment on decision making, not the whole idea.

Smartcooky, your facts about players getting starts and opportunities is sadly off. Conway and Macken have both had starts for Leinster this season and McKeon's featured for Connacht. Think Qualter has too. Both McKeon and Macken got injured over the course of the campaign.

And, while I can't be arsed to dig up full facts and figures, usually over 2/3rds of an England U20 squad come the JWC will have played first team senior rugby with usually around a third having played some serious time. A lot of the squad will be a year young too. Out of the 2009 JWC squad, we've already had 2 full internationals and 3 Saxons. Right now, bunch of foreigners or not, our player development is spot on.

And I see your Luke Romano and raise you Joe Marler. I would have said Corbierso, but its already happened. And so on. How many average SH fans had heard of Ben Youngs the summer before he tore Australia a new one?

You're also asking different questions when you compare Zac Guildford and co to the amount of Irish players making it who are currently in the U20s. From the last couple of seasons there are a number of players. Using the 2009 batch again - Ruddock is a full international, Spence and Ryan are A internationals, McAllister, O'Mahony and Murray are all very good bets to get A caps in the next year. Maybe not the flood that there in NZ, but 6 players of that quality a year makes a strong international team.

Which is not to say the young systems in a lot of NH countries couldn't be improved, or that they're not working on it and investing in it. But they're not weak, and things aren't going to be improved by vowing never to buy a SH player again and giving all that money to youth rugby. Simplistic and ill-informed at best, utter bogus at worst.

 

[profitius]

2 opposing views. I tend to agree with Smartcooky but the others raise some valid points too. Its mainly about getting the balance right.

Irelands coaching is also miles behind NZ, Smartcooky. If we were to invest in youth we'd need to invest in top quality coaches first. At least the provinces are actively running coaching courses for coaches around the country but theres a long way to go. The IRFU are running the game well from the state it was in in the 90's so don't have a massive problem with the current situation.

But no doubt in the long term investing in youth is the way to go. Focusing too much on the short term is a bit silly and you'll reap what you sow.

 

[Peat]

2 opposing views. I tend to agree with Smartcooky but the others raise some valid points too. Its mainly about getting the balance right.

Irelands coaching is also miles behind NZ, Smartcooky. If we were to invest in youth we'd need to invest in top quality coaches first. At least the provinces are actively running coaching courses for coaches around the country but theres a long way to go. The IRFU are running the game well from the state it was in in the 90's so don't have a massive problem with the current situation.

But no doubt in the long term investing in youth is the way to go. Focusing too much on the short term is a bit silly and you'll reap what you sow.

Who says the IRFU aren't focusing on developing youth? There's been a real pick up in the Ireland underage teams recently, the clubs team isn't just a joke, I am genuinely worried about the U18 final tomorrow - NOTE TO ALL: England vs. Ireland U18, European final, it is being broadcast live on... ahh, I forget which it is, Eurosport 2 I think, from about 5... the details escape me, but if interested, look it up. Should be a cracking game.

Anyway, there's been at least some improvement. I know Ulster are attributing a fair bit of it on a new academy structure, and things seem to be really motoring up there. I think Leinster have changed things but wouldn't swear to it. Munster, I believe, are currently changing things. And something must have happened in Connacht, as they've gone to joke shop to producing some very good players. And I don't think any of the U20 team in 2009 were ready for first team rugby. I mean, I was only just getting back into rugby then, but I remember noticing the difference in terms of players who were already playing. Now the full strength side has most of the back-line with ML experience.