Lessons learned frm the Steinlarger series - All Black perspective

[smartcooky]

I don't agree at all. At times Nonu probes at his defenders which hold them off making their tackle until the final moment in case he wrong foots them and breaks free, Sonny on the other hand just runs it straight at them league style so they know there is only one option. He also has developed his passing game a hell of a lot and I think Nonu's passing game is very underrated. Sonny has the devastating offload, but in reality, it's been around for aeons he's just the one who used it more than enough to be recognised for it. I also wouldn't say he's more effective at sucking in defenders either, Nonu brings in the same amount. I don't think I've seen Nonu leave a "vast" gap in a black jersey, Nonu is actually good on defense, don't know where you got the major flaw from

I'm not bagging Sonny at all, I think he is a great athlete but I just don't like people praising him up and giving a proven man like Nonu less credit where it is due. And IMHO Sonny had 2 quiet games and then a blinder in a game where everyone pretty much stood out. It's the crunch games where Nonu has proved he's a match winner, Sonny may also become one some day but that day has yet to be written in history so please, give Ma'a more credit.

Two of my main issues with Nonu have been

1. He used to get caught with the ball and turned over more than he should
2. He has never had any kind of kicking game, and appeared disinclined to get one

These are not "vital" issues; they aren't reasons to rule him out from selection. While he has largely addressed the issue he had with the turnovers, it has still happened a fair bit this year.

Lets be honest, Nonu's game play is not subtle; he's no Aaron Mauger in that he doesn't have that ability to "ghost" though a small gap. Rather, he tries to bash his way through or create his own gap, and in the modern game, that is not a successful ploy if its all you have. As far as kicking is concerned, Nonu looks awkward and uncomfortable when he kicks.

In Williams on the the other hand, I see the potential to have the elusive running and subtle kicking skills of Mauger, combined with Nonu's hard running, tackle busting style. When he started, he didn't have a kick at all, but by the time Mauger finished with him at the Crusaders last year, he had learned how to use the kick to good effect; Crusaders scored a couple of tries last season from his kicks, and Israel Dagg's try on Saturday night was the result of a near-perfectly weighted kick, and directly attributable to Mauger's coaching.

Williams is only in his third year of rugby Union, but he is a "natural"; he looks like he has been playing the game all his life. I trust coaches like Dave Rennie, Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen, Sir Ted, Grant Fox, Todd Blackadder; among THE most knowledgeable rugby men in New Zealand, when they say that SBW IS an intelligent thinker, whose understanding of Rugby Union is growing fast, and who on current form, is the best 12 in the country.

I think we are in a great position in NZ rugby and we should be thankful. I like the fact that we can argue on internet forums, chat boards, talk-back radio, pubs, clubs and bars over which of two excellent players should be 1st choice 12 for the All Blacks. I like that a lot better than the alternative; to be looking thorough what talent we do have at 12 and wondering if any of them are good enough.

 

[Dizzy]

Two of my main issues with Nonu have been

1. He used to get caught with the ball and turned over more than he should

Key word in bold letters. Sonny still has this problem, not to mention he committed two VERY "amateur" no pressure knock ons in two seperate tests.

2. He has never had any kind of kicking game, and appeared disinclined to get one

That's hardly an issue, with the All Black gameplan, it's irrelevent for our 12's to focus on kicking and I'm quite inclined to disagree with you. I think if you look through games, you will find Nonu has quite a good boot on him and has NEVER tried the silly little chips and grubbers that Sonny has. He put us into great field position in the World Cup with his kicks.

These are not "vital" issues; they aren't reasons to rule him out from selection. While he has largely addressed the issue he had with the turnovers, it has still happened a fair bit this year.

Lets be honest, Nonu's game play is not subtle; he's no Aaron Mauger in that he doesn't have that ability to "ghost" though a small gap. Rather, he tries to bash his way through or create his own gap, and in the modern game, that is not a successful ploy if its all you have. As far as kicking is concerned, Nonu looks awkward and uncomfortable when he kicks.

First of all, Nonu and Mauger are built differently and play differently, Also, what's the point of Nonu ghosting through a small gap when he can bust right through it?.. It works. Saying this is all Nonu has suggests to me that you have a very one sided opinion.

In Williams on the the other hand, I see the potential to have the elusive running and subtle kicking skills of Mauger, combined with Nonu's hard running, tackle busting style.

At the moment, I don't see the potential for Sonny to have an elusive running style, he's very much a battering ram like Nonu except, Nonu is probably the most genuine line breaking tackle buster we have, and I'm sorry but I don't think Sonny has the tackle busting skills of Nonu at all. He was absolutely well contained in the first and second test making less yardage than what he has been praised for and failed to break the line, I may be wrong he may have slipped through once or twice max as I watched the games at the pub bring me the stats if I need to be corrected but I don't think Sonny threatens a line break at all. The one line break he got in the third was purely great distribution from Cruden and even Tim Batemen would've ghosted through that.

Williams is only in his third year of rugby Union, but he is a "natural"; he looks like he has been playing the game all his life. I trust coaches like Dave Rennie, Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen, Sir Ted, Grant Fox, Todd Blackadder; among THE most knowledgeable rugby men in New Zealand, when they say that SBW IS an intelligent thinker, whose understanding of Rugby Union is growing fast, and who on current form, is the best 12 in the country.

There's no denying this, I have held the SBW flag for the good part of the past two years and have only lowered it slightly because Nonu has been on the receiving end of some ungranted criticism.

I think we are in a great position in NZ rugby and we should be thankful. I like the fact that we can argue on internet forums, chat boards, talk-back radio, pubs, clubs and bars over which of two excellent players should be 1st choice 12 for the All Blacks. I like that a lot better than the alternative; to be looking thorough what talent we do have at 12 and wondering if any of them are good enough.

And with that said I couldn't agree with you enough.

 

[nickdnz]

I would definitely agree that McCaw/Cane could be effective. The most effective possible unit however is what I doubt - and, should Cane be better than McCaw, I'd question whether McCaw brings as much to the team as an out and out 6, and for how long he'd continue to do so.

And it just goes to show why two prop benches need to be brought in I guess - I'm guessing Ben Franks would be your 2nd TH of choice when this does come in?

With Steve Hansen? Probably. But in my opinion his value to the squad is limited to his ability to play both sides of the scrum to a reasonable ability. If we get two props, I'd chuck Wyatt Crockett as our loosehead in a heartbeat and then throw one of either Charlie Faumuina or Ben Tameifina to cover the tighthead spot. As it is, Ben Franks is behind both Crockett and Owen Franks as regular starters for the Crusaders and there are considerably better tightheads out there, at least in terms of scrummaging.

 

[admartian]

In Williams on the the other hand, I see the potential /record stops

Potential is great - if you find the time to develop it.

I'll say it again...time.

Time.
A quality that is basically impossible to gauge with SBW. I've said it before, if he comes out and says either way (staying or leaving) and no more of this faffing about; then I'm happy.

But I'm not content with this pushing effort and resources into a commodity with an extremely unpredictable nature.

I don't agree at all. At times Nonu probes at his defenders which hold them off making their tackle until the final moment in case he wrong foots them and breaks free, Sonny on the other hand just runs it straight at them league style so they know there is only one option. He also has developed his passing game a hell of a lot and I think Nonu's passing game is very underrated. Sonny has the devastating offload, but in reality, it's been around for aeons he's just the one who used it more than enough to be recognised for it. I also wouldn't say he's more effective at sucking in defenders either, Nonu brings in the same amount. I don't think I've seen Nonu leave a "vast" gap in a black jersey, Nonu is actually good on defense, don't know where you got the major flaw from

I'm not bagging Sonny at all, I think he is a great athlete but I just don't like people praising him up and giving a proven man like Nonu less credit where it is due. And IMHO Sonny had 2 quiet games and then a blinder in a game where everyone pretty much stood out. It's the crunch games where Nonu has proved he's a match winner, Sonny may also become one some day but that day has yet to be written in history so please, give Ma'a more credit.

You are absolutely right.

Key word in bold letters. Sonny still has this problem, not to mention he committed two VERY "amateur" no pressure knock ons in two seperate tests.

That's hardly an issue, with the All Black gameplan, it's irrelevent for our 12's to focus on kicking and I'm quite inclined to disagree with you. I think if you look through games, you will find Nonu has quite a good boot on him and has NEVER tried the silly little chips and grubbers that Sonny has. He put us into great field position in the World Cup with his kicks.


First of all, Nonu and Mauger are built differently and play differently, Also, what's the point of Nonu ghosting through a small gap when he can bust right through it?.. It works. Saying this is all Nonu has suggests to me that you have a very one sided opinion.



At the moment, I don't see the potential for Sonny to have an elusive running style, he's very much a battering ram like Nonu except, Nonu is probably the most genuine line breaking tackle buster we have, and I'm sorry but I don't think Sonny has the tackle busting skills of Nonu at all. He was absolutely well contained in the first and second test making less yardage than what he has been praised for and failed to break the line, I may be wrong he may have slipped through once or twice max as I watched the games at the pub bring me the stats if I need to be corrected but I don't think Sonny threatens a line break at all. The one line break he got in the third was purely great distribution from Cruden and even Tim Batemen would've ghosted through that.


There's no denying this, I have held the SBW flag for the good part of the past two years and have only lowered it slightly because Nonu has been on the receiving end of some ungranted criticism.


And with that said I couldn't agree with you enough.

Yeah, as big as SBW is, he doesn't break as many tackles as he should. He runs way way way way way toooooooooo upright. A terrible quality, at least if you want to be a good ball runner.

Again, he relies too much on his athleticism, and to some extent gets away with it; but that's not good enough at All Blacks level. He needs technique, and TIME and COMMITMENT to work on that.

 

[Bon]

Frankly I am tired of the SBW circus, either he is on the bus or off it. I doubt very much his going will affect NZ rugby all that much,if at all. There is Nonu, and Kahui,and Carter, and Ellison and without doubt another new player will emerge, they always do. Williams has brought the offload to the game,but it is now commonplace. I think Nonu's all round game is still marginally better.

 

[Larksea]

Yeah, as big as SBW is, he doesn't break as many tackles as he should. He runs way way way way way toooooooooo upright. A terrible quality, at least if you want to be a good ball runner.

Again, he relies too much on his athleticism, and to some extent gets away with it; but that's not good enough at All Blacks level. He needs technique, and TIME and COMMITMENT to work on that.

thing is his main goal with his runs is not to break tackles like Nonu does, it's either to attract defenders and then pass the ball or take the ball over the advantage line and try and create quick phase ball. The main goal is to attract defenders and compress the defense in mid field to create gaps out wide with the main threat being the offload. And for that he needs to stay upright.

 

[Zapphod]

thing is his main goal with his runs is not to break tackles like Nonu does, it's either to attract defenders and then pass the ball or take the ball over the advantage line and try and create quick phase ball. The main goal is to attract defenders and compress the defense in mid field to create gaps out wide with the main threat being the offload. And for that he needs to stay upright.

That is all nifty when you are playing slow plodding northern hemisphere teams and puny little Asian teams but I suspect it will come horribly unstuck when playing the Australians who can tackle and South Africans who have more players in our backline to offload to than we do.

SBW is fine against second tier teams and with experience he may even hold his own against serious teams but quite honestly I expect Australia to run around him and South Africa to monster him off the field.

 

[Dizzy]

thing is his main goal with his runs is not to break tackles like Nonu does, it's either to attract defenders and then pass the ball or take the ball over the advantage line and try and create quick phase ball. The main goal is to attract defenders and compress the defense in mid field to create gaps out wide with the main threat being the offload. And for that he needs to stay upright.

But why all of a sudden have people forgotten that Nonu also draws in defenders, but he keeps them guessing. Nonu not only draws defenders, he beats them, which is something he does better than most and he also has a top passing game where he reads the space out wide and is able to throw a great long pass to put players into gaps.
Nonu probes, and he is either going to bounce off the inside foot, angle out and pass, or bounce off the inside foot then back off the outside foot and into/through the defensive line, or hit the line at pace, etc.... Sonny is very easy to read, he runs upright and directly at the defence, you know he's making a league-like hit up, when he's not running onto the ball he's going to pass it, he's that easy to read.


Again I bring up that Sonny doesn't always make the gainline and he hardly made much yardage in the first test vs Ireland so already his "main goal" was ineffective because he wasn't getting the offload nor was he making great yardage. Hey, Nonu doesn't always make the gainline either, BUT he can change his running style and eventually he does make a break through.

 

[Keithmurdoch]

Think we can all agree that we'll find out a lot more in the Championship coming up than we did against Ireland - but SBW's at least earnt the chance to start, not least through his S15 form. He does so much more off the ball now too, never a strong part of Nonu's game. My money's on SBW to come through with the goods.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

South Africans who have more players in our backline to offload to than we do.

hahahah quoted for truth

 

[admartian]

That is all nifty when you are playing slow plodding northern hemisphere teams and puny little Asian teams but I suspect it will come horribly unstuck when playing the Australians who can tackle and South Africans who have more players in our backline to offload to than we do.

SBW is fine against second tier teams and with experience he may even hold his own against serious teams but quite honestly I expect Australia to run around him and South Africa to monster him off the field.

Absolutely bloody agree.

Not to mention the ever perceptive wallaby backs, who are very quick off the line for an intercept (see Beale, AAC, Berrick, Pocokc, Moore etc). I can see him getting confused and desperate, to pass to one of his league mates .

I think there was wisdom on Sir Ted's part in not starting him in the crucial games last year. Even he knew that despite the mountain of potential, that he is still a walking brain fart explosion of losing you close games.

Look, I love the potential in the bloke as much as the next guy - which is why I follow American College sports, particularly Gridiron (which is why every time I start a sports franchise in a video game of any kind I always try and get the young players). But this isn't a video game, and with SBW signatures/word/contract being as worthy as a car salesman's promise in hell, I'm not going to bank on it.

Potential has never won games for any person; or team, from any sport, in the history of forever.

He's mastered beating demoralised NH teams though, I'll give him that.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

SBW has a kicking game? since when? since he grubbered the ball for Dagg's try? if that's what gets you a kicking game then surely forwards have kicking games as well.

 

[Larksea]

that was not SBW's first good attacking kick he has actually made a few. I actually remember one really good one for canterbury not long after he landed. back in those days he trained for these kicks with Aaron Mauger.

I think the key really is that even though he's not used it often when he has used it its been of very good quality

 

[Keithmurdoch]

Yeah the infrequency of its employment is a key to its success. I hope our U20s inside backs learn this lession one day.

 

[smartcooky]

That is all nifty when you are playing slow plodding northern hemisphere teams and puny little Asian teams but I suspect it will come horribly unstuck when playing the Australians who can tackle and South Africans who have more players in our backline to offload to than we do.

SBW is fine against second tier teams and with experience he may even hold his own against serious teams but quite honestly I expect Australia to run around him and South Africa to monster him off the field.

What a crap comment!

New Zealand's best coaches rate SBW highly. You don't.

I know who's opinion I place the most store in!

 

[admartian]

What a crap comment!

New Zealand's best coaches rate SBW highly. You don't.

I know who's opinion I place the most store in!

A little both, and a bit of everything. The NZRU in this case, has paid a price for him. Whether the coaches like it or not, they're obliged to play him.

This is universal across pro sports. I don't think you can hide behind the whole "coaches know best all the time" shield. They make mistakes. The jury's out whether SBW is a long-term mistake or not.

It's not hating, just facts. Pro sports GMs/Managers/Coaches/Selectors hit or miss all-the-time. You don't want a list compiled of this. :lol:!

Regardless of what anyone feels about SBW, he's being played because the decision makers have paid for him...




EDIT:

This is worse than the whole LeBron James "The Announcement" farce.
http://www.3news.co.nz/Sonny-Bill-W...weeks/tabid/415/articleID/259038/Default.aspx

What a joke...

Pity his worshippers. To be fair to him, it's guys that surround him that I despise the most; as by all appearances seems like a decent albeit naive bloke. Though, he's not completely blame if he chooses to be around seedy agents like Khoder and wankbags like Quade Cooper.

 

[donmcdazzle]

^^ If you think SBW hasn't been picked on form this season you are dreaming. He has been the form 12 in NZ, if not the whole Super competition.

I will agree that last year it seemed like he was shoe-horned in, but this year he has improved out of sight and is our best 12 on form. Up to you whether you think he would get shown up by Aus or SA teams; all I'll say is that he has been playing both SA and Aus teams in Super rugby and has excelled.

I couldn't care less what sort of a guy he is or what sort of contractual commitment issues he may have. If you just judge it on his performance on the park then he is worthy of the starting spot in the AB's right now. Whether he can sustain his form, and whether Nonu can recapture some form, coupled with whatever his contractual situation is will determine whether he will still be starting come the Rugby Championship.

 

[Zapphod]

What a crap comment!

New Zealand's best coaches rate SBW highly. You don't.

I know who's opinion I place the most store in!

Yet arguably the best New Zealand coach Graham Henry left him on the bench for most of the 2011 season so clearly he didn't rate him that highly, his greatest achievement in the 2011 RWC was what scoring 3 tries in the competition as a replacement and getting sent off in the semi against Australia.

 

[admartian]

^^ If you think SBW hasn't been picked on form this season you are dreaming. He has been the form 12 in NZ, if not the whole Super competition.

I will agree that last year it seemed like he was shoe-horned in, but this year he has improved out of sight and is our best 12 on form. Up to you whether you think he would get shown up by Aus or SA teams; all I'll say is that he has been playing both SA and Aus teams in Super rugby and has excelled.

I couldn't care less what sort of a guy he is or what sort of contractual commitment issues he may have. If you just judge it on his performance on the park then he is worthy of the starting spot in the AB's right now. Whether he can sustain his form, and whether Nonu can recapture some form, coupled with whatever his contractual situation is will determine whether he will still be starting come the Rugby Championship.

Again, like I said in my post that you've apparently skimmed, saw that wasn't pro SBW, then decided to reply - :lol: - you'll find that I said it's a mixcture of everything.

I shouldn't have to explain that there's a balcne to all this, do I?

I'll just say, that yes, he's the best we've got so far right now. To say that, is not really saying much is it?

Considering apart from Nonu at 12; who dowe have there?

An injured Toeava, Dan Carter shifted there would be class. But who else? Tim Bateman? Ryan Crotty? Are all these guys; while solid and good in their own right, the types of guys you will HONESTLY say to yourself that by SBW beating them means a whole lot?

Maybe it isn't I that is kidding myself.


You are missing the point that people care about his commitment. I don't give a toss if he lacks commitment into learning to play the guitar (read: anything else outside rugby or anything that might detract from that). I care because it's effort and resources wasted. Effort that could be more efficiently used for players that really want to fuirther themselves here in NZ.

I think sometimes fanboys pick and choose what I'm saying, simply because they don't want to hear anything else - *covers ears - la lala la lalal al al al ala lal aal al ala la la I can't hear yooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu lalala lal ala la la la * - -comes to mind when speaking to SBW lovers sometimes. :lol:


Respectfully, of course.

 

[Shovenose]

He is imitating Eliota Sapolu