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Jaws said:
Of course it's true. Have they won a World cup? Have they ever been in a final or even a semi?? Nope.. so at the moment they are crap. They're a poor mans All Blacks.
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If Samoa are crap at the moment I dread to think what you think England are
 
Jaws said:
Of course it's true. Have they won a World cup? Have they ever been in a final or even a semi?? Nope.. so at the moment they are crap. They're a poor mans All Blacks.
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I suppose that makes Ireland, Italy, Fiji etc... crap too?
 
Jaws said:
Of course it's true. Have they won a World cup? Have they ever been in a final or even a semi?? Nope.. so at the moment they are crap. They're a poor mans All Blacks.
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Going by that logic only 8 teams in the world aren't crap, Ireland are crap despite beating Australia the other day and winning the 6nations with a grand slam in 2009 and having the 2nd best win record in the 6 nations.

On the other hand you're saying Argentina are good, Scotland are good despite having never won the 6 nations (notice the 6 people so 2000 onwards) having the 2nd worst 6 nations win record, and England are good despite having won nothing of importance since 2003.

Please note people that I aren't knocking England, Argentina or Scotland as I believe they all are top teams when on form, just trying to point out to Jaws the absurdity of his comment.
 
cardassian said:
Going by that logic only 8 teams in the world aren't crap, Ireland are crap despite beating Australia the other day and winning the 6nations with a grand slam in 2009 and having the 2nd best win record in the 6 nations.

On the other hand you're saying Argentina are good, Scotland are good despite having never won the 6 nations (notice the 6 people so 2000 onwards) having the 2nd worst 6 nations win record, and England are good despite having won nothing of importance since 2003.

Please note people that I aren't knocking England, Argentina or Scotland as I believe they all are top teams when on form, just trying to point out to Jaws the absurdity of his comment.
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Everyone but New Zealand are crap.

:p
 
Jaws said:
England have been in 3 WC finals and won one, and they have the best record in 6N's history. So England are without a doubt the greatest NH team of all time.



You said it.
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Can't argue with that but...
Do you remember England vs Ireland matches in 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009 and 2010 or a certain Ireland Australia match on Sunday?

Ireland aren't a crap team neither are Samoa, Italy or Fiji
 
Jaws said:
England have been in 3 WC finals and won one, and they have the best record in 6N's history. So England are without a doubt the greatest NH team of all time.



You said it.
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Games in 6 nations

France played 60 W 44
Ireland played 60 W 43
England played 60 W 39

or if we go tournament wins

France 5
England 4
 
cardassian said:
Games in 6 nations

France played 60 W 44
Ireland played 60 W 43
England played 60 W 39

or if we go tournament wins

France 5
England 4
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I think he was trying to include the Five Nations before Italy joined, as well as the Home Nations championships conducted without France.

If you include those, it goes England 26, Wales 24, France 17, Scotland 14, Ireland 11, Italy 0. Note that the home nations have competed in 111 tournaments, France 81 tournaments, and Italy 12 tournaments. 17 from 81 is 20.99% of tournaments contested, and 26 from 111 is 23.4% of tournaments contested, as well.
 
See now the stories changing first it was 6 nations now you're including home nations too which means a lot of tournies without France therefore being bias against France and therefore not an objective viewpoint at all. Now if you include 5 nations i'm sure England would still come out on top, but you did say 6 nations so that's what I looked at :p

Also if we're pulling up all ancient history like the home nations tournaments then NZ is awesome everyone else sucks cos nz have an 80%+ win record and nobody comes close. Obviously this isn't realistic though.

So instead of saying NEXT.... maybe try looking at what is happening currently, look at what teams are doing in their games and make an informed comment rather than a bias, blinkered one.

p.s. Samoa beat Aussie pre cup does that make Aussie useless too?
 
Jaws said:
Overall England have the most Home Nations, Five Nations, and Six Nations tournament victories with 26 (excluding 10 shared victories).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_Championship

End of debate. NEXT....
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going back to the ye old days where it wasnt really played outside of england in the home nations!!!

6nations mabey back to 90 at most is a btter measure to how the modern countries are doing
 
Because warm up matches haven't got anything to do with current form, Wales were better vs Samoa and the Springboks than they were against England, Ireland were so much better against Australia than England and England have stayed at the same level.
 
Peat said:
So how comes we won 2 out of 3 of our warmup matches which involved Wales and Ireland?
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Current form

England have played poorly in both our matches, Wales have played very very well against South Africa and then well against Samoa, Ireland have played all right against USA and then well against Aus
 
cmac95 said:
Because warm up matches haven't got anything to do with current form, Wales were better vs Samoa and the Springboks than they were against England, Ireland were so much better against Australia than England and England have stayed at the same level.
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Warm up matches are far from a perfect barometer, but they are the most recent match up between the named teams, and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

Ireland were much better, but were unrelentingly poor before hand and have been for a year bar about three matches. One swallow doesn't make a summer and I'm interested to see how they do against Russia. Ireland's victory was more than partially built on scrum dominance, which is unlikely against England, and the closest they came to troubling the tryline was a breakaway intercept.

Wales have improved, but the matches showed no real fundamental differences in quality between the two sides, and I don't think they're wildly better than they were.

France have been rather indifferent.

I don't think any of the three named would fear us - but I don't fear them either, and the only side where form favours them is Wales, and then not by much. I think Olyy is completely wrong to dismiss our chances against any of them based on form.

edit: Olyy, Ireland were ugly bad against USA. I also reject any definition of the word 'form' that can be based on two matches and completely ignoring games little more than a month previous.
 
I don't really trust warm ups because the teams are never full strength

Were England 8 tries and 57 points better than Wales in 2007? Not a chance
 
I suppose you're only as good as your last game. I don't think you can reference the warm-up games, because at the moment, they're not relevant. Of course, you couldn't say Ireland are on form because its only one good game and they could easily have a USA type game vs Russia. Think the point that Olyy is making is that England, although winning, have been playing below form at the moment and yet to catch fire. Which they may do in the knockout stages.
 

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