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June International Test: New Zealand vs. Wales [3rd Test] (25/06/2016)

As a neutral who happens to watch a fair bit of super rugby I can't help think that (several years back) dagg was the man everyone in NZ wanted at 15 but never quite cut it. Not fit to tie smiths boots in my opinion, and your are right suggesting the latter would be wasted on the wing. Considering the resources NZ have on both wings, why make room for a player like dagg, when smiths clearly the worlds best 15 by a mile.

No, he definitely cut it. Someone can correct me, but his 2011 stint was fantastic, and around that World Cup year, he might've been the best fullback in the world. But it must've been around... 2013 and this is where he started falling off. He had mediocre seasons with the Crusaders, several years in a row, and everyone in the country was wondering where "that" Israel Dagg had gone. He had just completely dropped off, and along came Ben Smith. And then, much more recently, players that can cover that position and play others at a top tier level. Barrett can cover 15, Nehe Milner-Skudder plays fullback at the Hurricanes, but Hansen chose him to play wing. I guess Dagg has come back at the perfect time? NMS is injured, McKenzie is young... I mean, I don't even rate too highly the year he's had at this Crusaders this season. He just fits the role, with our lack of depth at 14, Smith's ability to play that role, and other injuries to key players. We might never have such a lack of right wingers, ever...

If NMS wasn't injured, Dagg would still probably have made the All Blacks team, and McKenzie dropped. Hansen has always played/liked Dagg, even when he's been underwhelming for a long duration of time. To be fair to him, the boot on the guy, is ridiculous. But yeah... Doesn't have much else over Ben Smith. As for NZ and other fullbacks? It's not really a position where we have a massive list of "could be" players. Nehe Milner-Skudder, Visinia at the Blues, McKenzie at the Chiefs.
 
No, he definitely cut it. Someone can correct me, but his 2011 stint was fantastic, and around that World Cup year, he might've been the best fullback in the world. But it must've been around... 2013 and this is where he started falling off. He had mediocre seasons with the Crusaders, several years in a row, and everyone in the country was wondering where "that" Israel Dagg had gone. He had just completely dropped off, and along came Ben Smith. And then, much more recently, players that can cover that position and play others at a top tier level. Barrett can cover 15, Nehe Milner-Skudder plays fullback at the Hurricanes, but Hansen chose him to play wing. I guess Dagg has come back at the perfect time? NMS is injured, McKenzie is young... I mean, I don't even rate too highly the year he's had at this Crusaders this season. He just fits the role, with our lack of depth at 14, Smith's ability to play that role, and other injuries to key players. We might never have such a lack of right wingers, ever...

If NMS wasn't injured, Dagg would still probably have made the All Blacks team, and McKenzie dropped. Hansen has always played/liked Dagg, even when he's been underwhelming for a long duration of time. To be fair to him, the boot on the guy, is ridiculous. But yeah... Doesn't have much else over Ben Smith. As for NZ and other fullbacks? It's not really a position where we have a massive list of "could be" players. Nehe Milner-Skudder, Visinia at the Blues, McKenzie at the Chiefs.

Sounds funny someone bemoaning lack of depth anywhere in NZ. Am I confusing island wingers as New Zealanders when I watch super rugby. Hence my comment on winger depth. Naholo and savea not good enough then? :)
 
a great read.

in the mid 70s I went to a rugby school in the north of England. I was rather upset this school never played football, but had no choice because this was the grammar school my 11 plus placed me at. the team I played in was coached by current rugby players. One from Union, the other league. It went 76 matches from 1st to 6th form without defeat. Not just without defeat, but without dropping a single point. This included many games against school sides throughout England, Wales and France. who had heard of our record, and took a go at us. I can safely say that only one player from that side went on to be capped by his country. None by England. Not sure how many went on to be capped by their county, as I had since left. Several players from the school went on to be trialed by local football teams, but I am guessing few were ever approached to continue with rugby, and why would you, back in the 70s? The point is that rugby has never quite had the infrastructure enjoyed in NZ for decades. The school I went to was later renamed and adopted football as its premier sport and introduced the world to one Steven Gerrard. I bet no one can name their capped rugby player.

Well... We are a rugby nation. Every boy who has played rugby, typically, wants their offspring to play rugby, unless they have had a bad experience along the line. Grassroots rugby is huge here, it's one of those things (I'm assuming here, I don't have kids), but you're watching them grow, over here in NZ, and they're like "man... I cannot wait till they are old enough to play rugby". That is actually a very common thought here. Just like football is in the UK. That is the thought of a lot of male parents, in the UK.

I actually grew up in the UK, and, to be honest. Rugby is not really an accessible sport. NOWHERE near as accessible as football. Literally, I only went on the field for P.E. in the colder/wetter seasons. This was at secondary school, we had uniforms etc. but getting out there and playing lunchtime rugby was not a thing. In the colder seasons, the kids would just play football on the concrete tennis courts, or practically anything concrete and flat. There would be a lot of effort to change into some sports gear and play at lunchtime. Kids do it here in NZ, but its THE sport. Being a part of the First XV is actually quite a status here. Because a huge percentage goes for those places. Typically, the captain of the First XV in highschool is the head boy of the school, when they get to their last year. It is a huge culture/status thing. You don't just simply walk onto the team, or at least, not a good school's team. A lot of hard work has to be done, because the places are in high demand. Schools have their own First XV weights coaches, just as an example of how serious it actually is. It honestly would be hard going trying to even play a game of 7s in a UK school, at lunchtime. And that's probably where it all starts. I don't feel like the weather in the UK helps the sport either tbh. Especially not for grassroots and kids trying to get into it. I mean, I hate to stereotype the UK, but I lived there... and the English Winter weather really is dreadful. Because in schools it is a season sport, over here, kids play rugby all year round, even if there is no rugby running.

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Sounds funny someone bemoaning lack of depth anywhere in NZ. Am I confusing island wingers as New Zealanders when I watch super rugby. Hence my comment on winger depth. Naholo and savea not good enough then? :)

Savea is a left-wing for the Hurricanes. Naholo a right-wing for the 'Landers. And that's really where we then have a drop in talent, at this very moment. Nehe Milner-Skudder is a fullback playing right-wing for the ABs, he's obviously injured. The wingers at the Crusaders don't play their international rugby for NZ. The Highlanders have Patrick Osborne, who has donned a black jersey, but as I mentioned above, drop off. Hurricanes have Cory Jane, who is past it. The Blues and the Chiefs are the most likely to produce the next All Black winger. At the Blues you have Tevita Li(21), Ben Lam(25), and Rieko Ioane(19) and the Chiefs have James Lowe(23), Shaun Stevenson(19), Latu Vaeno(21), and Sam McNicol(20). As I said though, the listed above are either a big drop off to the starting All Black wingers, but typically, for that group, they are still young and not quite there yet. But I believe Stevenson and Lowe both prefer fullback...? So, I'm assuming they go for the position with the ABs that their club plays them at, which is wing.

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The most likely I believe, of that list. Will be Rieko Ioane. I mean, we already have two of, what I would suggest, were the most feared wingers in Naholo/Savea... But Rieko... I just have this feeling he's going to be something else. He is already doing work at 19 years old... He is turning grown men inside-out, and beating international wingers/outside backs.
 
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With all our wingers fit, we have some of the 4 best in the world. Naholo, Savea, Smith and NMS. One of those is the best fullback in the world and NMS can play there exceptionally as well. I think we're fine for wingers. Don't forget George Moala is capable of playing there also and James Lowe isn't far off, I'd put him slightly ahead of Ioane.
 
With all our wingers fit, we have some of the 4 best in the world. Naholo, Savea, Smith and NMS. One of those is the best fullback in the world and NMS can play there exceptionally as well. I think we're fine for wingers. Don't forget George Moala is capable of playing there also and James Lowe isn't far off, I'd put him slightly ahead of Ioane.

If we're going off of when players are fit then North is better than Naholo. Maybe NMS.
 
We have age groups from 5 onwards. We have ripper rugby, which is no contact, gets kids into the sport. Then it goes into tackle. The kids have typically already picked a grassroots club for life by this point, the club rivalries exist from a very young age in my county. You'll be playing first 15 rugby for your primary, and intermediate schools, and still playing for your club, before you get into the big first 15 of your local highschool. For you poms etc, thats 13 till 18. Several things can happen from this point, if you're a superstar, you'll play for New Zealand school boys, you'll walk into your county's under 19s team. Also, if you are in the top tier of your school rugby team, you normally get an offer to be a part of your county's rugby academy too. Which also helps the above progression. If you don't quite make it at NZ school boys, you could still be in the academy because you're the best talent in your region. And then, they'll feed you into the county development team, or the first team(Taranaki, Auckland, Waikato etc). The under 19s competition normally helps with selecting the NZ U20s team. This is where the Super Rugby teams get involved, this is the easiest way to "make it" in NZ rugby. If you shine on the international stage at U20s, there will be a SR contacting you very soon. Or perhaps, you've already been contacted due to earlier star-studded showings, a la Sam Nock in his school season.

Above is the typical way. IF you don't get through there like that, I don't believe someone called Cory Jane did... OR Nehe Milner-Skudder. Playing for your county, ITM Cup team, can always produce late bloomers and ridiculous talent.

Thanks for the response - it reminded me of the excellent sports book "Friday Night Lights" about a similar obsession with parents and their sport (in that case, American football). Even knowing nothing about the NZ setup I suspected that there is a lot of well thought out processes at play in addition to the devotion to the sport and your post suggests that's the case.

I'd argue that the likes of Scotland and Wales generally excel at no sports. So it isn't like we are channelling all our amazing natural talent in other directions and rugby is relegated to losing out on possible natural athletes. I'd also argue that NZ significantly overachieves at both cricket (in all three formats) and Rugby League when compared to the second and third sports of the countries I'm mentioning. There are probably wider political and cultural factors at play and maybe education, sport and clubs are well integrated in NZ (whereas here in Scotland there is no evident interlinking between those sectors, you can only really access rugby at fee paying schools and the area where rugby is most popular has no professional team).

To summarise my ramble, I just think saying "Oh well done Wales/Scotland/Ireland, tough luck" when they get within 20 points of NZ is a massive disservice to the structures in place in NZ to identify and develop talent and your accomplishments as a fairly small country. On the flip side completely lets Scottish/Welsh politicians and the Scottish/Welsh rugby unions off the hook for the limited quality of our sporting teams.

I'll keep rooting for the All Blacks against the other top nations as compared to countries with around ten times your population who have a long heritage of rugby like France, England, Australia & South Africa, I consider you guys the underdogs.
 
As far as NZ wingers go its become an obvious selection ploy to use fullbacks as wingers a LOT in the post 2007 WC era. And AB squads will often only have 2 players who are regular wingers. And a squad with only 1 specialist winger would not be out of the ordinary. Guys like Jane, Dagg, Ben Smith, Piutau, Toeava and now Skudder all basically fullbacks who played tests on the wing. Though I guess Toeava was a genuine utility back, I doubt even he knew his preferred position... Then there was kahui who while being a center for the most part had insane defense, high ball and kicking skills so hes kinda in the same camp.

Its very very difficult for a specialist winger to get regular tests for the All Blacks, they are competing with all the fullbacks and utility backs for gametime.

I honestly like this tactic, I think it is important to get your best players(backs anyway) on the field even if at times they are playing out of their normal position. Its important for a group of our best players to have the sills and confidence to play multiple positions.
 
Having fullbacks and wingers with similar skill sets who are inter-changable was started by the All Blacks and I note it is beginning to filter down into NZ lower grades and school boy rugby. Speed, ability to catch the high ball and vision, now being required for both positions.
 
As far as NZ wingers go its become an obvious selection ploy to use fullbacks as wingers a LOT in the post 2007 WC era. And AB squads will often only have 2 players who are regular wingers. And a squad with only 1 specialist winger would not be out of the ordinary. Guys like Jane, Dagg, Ben Smith, Piutau, Toeava and now Skudder all basically fullbacks who played tests on the wing. Though I guess Toeava was a genuine utility back, I doubt even he knew his preferred position... Then there was kahui who while being a center for the most part had insane defense, high ball and kicking skills so hes kinda in the same camp.

Its very very difficult for a specialist winger to get regular tests for the All Blacks, they are competing with all the fullbacks and utility backs for gametime.

I honestly like this tactic, I think it is important to get your best players(backs anyway) on the field even if at times they are playing out of their normal position. Its important for a group of our best players to have the sills and confidence to play multiple positions.

11 is the specialist winger spot. That goes to our current out and out best specialist running winger in the country. 14 is expected to improvise and come into the line and be more of a play maker, spotting opportunities and creating chances out off nothing. I think tactically the All Blacks have set this up perfectly over the years by utilizing our fullbacks who can use their vision in the 14 role.

Naholo has the edge over Savea now because he has more vision and comes inside a lot more than Savea does, he has potential to revolutionize our 11 role with his vision and powerful running. Naholo will be our 11 and NMS/B.Smith at 14 from here on in I believe.
 
I'm a big Naholo fan; but again I can't think of what he has done to replace Savea. If we have a bit of faith and patience with Savea he will likely become the world's highest try scorer. Right now he is still scoring tries at a higher rate than Cullen, Lomu, Howlett, Sivivatu, Rokocoko etc. But people are just so fickle. Dagg has 3 bad years and finally plays alright and so he must start. Savea has an indifferent SR season and June series - so now he's obsolete...
 
I'm a big Naholo fan; but again I can't think of what he has done to replace Savea. If we have a bit of faith and patience with Savea he will likely become the world's highest try scorer. Right now he is still scoring tries at a higher rate than Cullen, Lomu, Howlett, Sivivatu, Rokocoko etc. But people are just so fickle. Dagg has 3 bad years and finally plays alright and so he must start. Savea has an indifferent SR season and June series - so now he's obsolete...

Pretty much. Play and pick the form players in the outside backs, saw it with NMS last year. Need fit guys running quick and in form.

It's pretty evident Naholo is hitting the line harder and is in better condition than Julian, who seems to like his KFC a little too much. Naholo has a lot more to his game as well.

Julian is fantastic when he's in shape, but until he starts taking his conditioning seriously, he can play a more minor role.
 
on Julian Savea, Firstly I'm happy to be proven wrong but this is my opinion and has been for the last year or so.

I think we have seen the best of Savea, he peaked young and now we have seen him lose a yard of pace and have constant conditioning issues. Hes about to turn 26 and I don't see him being an all black at 28+, I don't see him being part of the next World cup.

Ive said it in the past, nutrition is one of my passions, I spend most of my free time learning nutrition and nutritional science. I think guys like Savea get a lot of bad nutritional advice and the high protein diets that are the fashion for athletes like him are only doing him harm and slowing him down. High fat high protein meals and shakes are easy to make and enjoy if you think they are doing you good and people are telling you that's what you need and its a hard habit to break. So I really don't see him turning that around.

To make things worse the technical aspects of the game have never been his strength. Though hes done ok hes never been a top level defender, kicker or high ball taker. I remember when Rokocoko was at the same stage of his career his pace dropped of and he stopped scoring tries but he also worked very hard on his defensive game, when those aspects of his game came under pressure he worked hard and got good under the high ball and became a very good defender. Savea has only really let those areas slip.

In Short, what Savea has done in the game is phenominal. Its right up there with Lomu & Rokocoko, his strike rate is mind blowing and hes already an All Black Great. But IMO he will go down as an early bloomer and hes past his peak. He'll stick around for the next couple of years, may play a role in the lions tour but I don't see him being part of the 2019 WC. Savea should be given every opportunity to get his mojo back. But we shouldn't keep playing him when hes out of form, he can try and find form and condition in super rugby, feeding him test caps isn't going to help. We need to keep developing depth, it may be there is a 17-21 year old kid out there who is going to be our winger come 2019.

But historical records aside, on current form where does Savea rate in our national wing stocks right now? Apart from the barnstormer against France he hasn't looked anywhere near his best for a long time now. At his best something happened every time he got the ball, all he needed was a bit of space and he could gain 30m almost every time he touched the ball. Now whole games go by without any of those trademark runs...
 
^^^ As upsetting as this is it's spot on. I rate Naholo, Smith, Dagg, Moala and maybe even Ioane above him on the wing ATM. Seeing such a great player's demise is truly upsetting, and I hope he can refind his form, but as you said, it's unlikely.
 
Dagg is playing well at the moment, so he deserves a run.
Hansen picks players on form so they know the drill.
Savea at the top of his game is shoe in for the squad.
If he's not at the top of his game then bad luck.
It's the same across the board.
 
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