• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Izzy Folau

Akker Van Der Tigs said:
Again I'm not religious....
Click to expand...
I know, sorry I didn't mean you literally but you're engaging in a discussion with me about it and appear to take up the other side whether that is because you don't like me or like being a contrarian or whether you just like debate and playing devils advocate. Either way I assume you want to tak about the points you raise.
 
Welsh Exile said:
I know, sorry I didn't mean you literally but you're engaging in a discussion with me about it and appear to take up the other side whether that is because you don't like me or like being a contrarian or whether you just like debate and playing devils advocate. Either way I assume you want to tak about the points you raise.
Click to expand...

Originally I found it funny how you didn't think it was being personal.
 
Akker Van Der Tigs said:
Originally I found it funny how you didn't think it was being personal.
Click to expand...
Ok cool. I would say there's different levels to being "personal" for me it's not necessarily personal to attack ones beliefs (something that can change of their own free will) unless you start calling them names or what have you.

If I went on a KKK website and said I find your beliefs disturbing I wouldn't say that was personal to be honest.

As I asked you initially. What's the alternative I suppose?
 
TRF_heineken said:
Yet, the Bible is one of the things that is used the most in topics of Ethics and Morality. You have a problem with homophobia and slavery. So you then bash the whole book??

I guess you are then fine with Murder, Stealing, Raping????
Click to expand...
No I'm not ok with any of that. Not sure I follow your logic. Do you think we get our morality from Christianity or something?
 
Maybe finding out their beliefs beforehand and not assume?
Like if you went onto such a website then you already know their beliefs obviously...



It's like Heinken says

"I'm also passionate about sexual, racial and gender equality. The mistake most people make, is to take everything in the Bible, literally. I'm also very much aware that I live in the 21st century, and that things that weren't "acceptable" in the times of the Bible, might be now, and vice versa."

and you reply with

"If you feel that passionately about it why do you base your world view on a book that says slavery is moral and homosexuality isn't. Why love a book that was used to treat women as 2nd class citizens for centuries. "

It's like you don't bother to read.
 
Akker Van Der Tigs said:
Maybe finding out their beliefs beforehand and not assume?
Like if you went onto such a website then you already know their beliefs obviously...



It's like Heinken says

"I'm also passionate about sexual, racial and gender equality. The mistake most people make, is to take everything in the Bible, literally. I'm also very much aware that I live in the 21st century, and that things that weren't "acceptable" in the times of the Bible, might be now, and vice versa."

and you reply with

"If you feel that passionately about it why do you base your world view on a book that says slavery is moral and homosexuality isn't. Why love a book that was used to treat women as 2nd class citizens for centuries. "

It's like you don't bother to read.
Click to expand...
So as I said, I'm interested in how he rationalises this decision. Because the 2 things seem at odds to me.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Did I say one person wrote it? I agreed with Hein that several people, in all likelihood, contributed to it, many years after Jesus' death but that's irrelevant to me anyway.
Click to expand...
Jews will tell you that the old testament is entirely written by Moses, it definitely predates Jesus.

I had started to write a long response to this but ultimately the point would have been that you are, somewhat bizarrely in my opinion, taking a non-revisionist view to the most revised, most translated and most rewritten book in history. Currently theological debate is whether or not the new testament condemns homosexuality or not, it can be interpreted to condemn pederastry and prostitution only.

It was the same with slavery in the late 18th and early 19th century. A book written for a predominantly enslaved people (early Christians) wasn't anti slavery because it was just part of life at the time.

Whilst churches should officially stop recognising different books within the Bible rather than simply ignoring them I think there's far more damaging things that are ignored today and are definitely more worthy of non-revisionist views. Like there was a bit of push back against statues last summer and a walk around parliament Square today would still show you a eugenicist, a leader of an apartheid regime, a pedophile and multiple partakers in genocide.
 
Welsh Exile said:
So as I said, I'm interested in how he rationalises this decision. Because the 2 things seem at odds to me.
Click to expand...
Rationalize which decision? To be christian?

Welsh Exile said:
No I'm not ok with any of that. Not sure I follow your logic. Do you think we get our morality from Christianity or something?
Click to expand...
The Bible introduced the 10 commandments which includes thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal.

The Bible was the start of Canon Law, which helped many countries to developed laws on what is right and what is wrong. Morality was started with the Bible....
 
TRF_heineken said:
The Bible was the start of Canon Law, which helped many countries to developed laws on what is right and what is wrong. Morality was started with the Bible....
Click to expand...
What about Greek and Roman civilization and philosophy? They weren't going around freely murdering and raping one another. Different story if you were considered a lesser class of person but there was definitely recognition that this isn't something you could do.
 
TRF_heineken said:
Rationalize which decision? To be christian?


The Bible introduced the 10 commandments which includes thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal.

The Bible was the start of Canon Law, which helped many countries to developed laws on what is right and what is wrong. Morality was started with the Bible....
Click to expand...
You started to loose me, there were lots of laws before the bible

even before Jesus you weren't allowed to just kill free people

also...lots of people have been killed in the name of god...so maybe not the best example

and thow shalt not worship any god but me is pretty intolerant
 
Last edited:
TRF_heineken said:
Rationalize which decision? To be christian?


The Bible introduced the 10 commandments which includes thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal.

The Bible was the start of Canon Law, which helped many countries to developed laws on what is right and what is wrong. Morality was started with the Bible....
Click to expand...
Agree with TAB on this last part - it's definitely served as a pretty fundamental moral guide for modern civilization hut it's probably better to give that credit to religion more broadly than the Bible specifically
 
TRF_heineken said:
Rationalize which decision? To be christian?


The Bible introduced the 10 commandments which includes thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal.

The Bible was the start of Canon Law, which helped many countries to developed laws on what is right and what is wrong. Morality was started with the Bible....
Click to expand...

Morality existed before the bible.

I just find it a bit odd that you consider the bible "real" but you accept that there's some crucial things in it that you disagree with. I think it's fair to say that if there was a book that I took pretty seriously but it had quite a few things I fundamentally found abhorrent that it wouldn't matter how much "good" stuff was in it I would discard it.
 
The Alpha Bro said:
What about Greek and Roman civilization and philosophy? They weren't going around freely murdering and raping one another. Different story if you were considered a lesser class of person but there was definitely recognition that this isn't something you could do.
Click to expand...
Yes, Greek and Roman Civilizations and philosophy also played a part in the development of moral code and ethics as well as laws. And in many instances there is a combination of religious fundamentals as well as greek and roman philosophy.

I'm not denying the inclusion of any other civilization/culture/code or whatever in the development of morals and ethics. Over the years everything became intertwined.
 
TRF_heineken said:
Yes, Greek and Roman Civilizations and philosophy also played a part in the development of moral code and ethics as well as laws. And in many instances there is a combination of religious fundamentals as well as greek and roman philosophy.

I'm not denying the inclusion of any other civilization/culture/code or whatever in the development of morals and ethics. Over the years everything became intertwined.
Click to expand...
You did say morality started with the bible though?
 
Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
Agree with TAB on this last part - it's definitely served as a pretty fundamental moral guide for modern civilization hut it's probably better to give that credit to religion more broadly than the Bible specifically
Click to expand...
I completely agree. Look at how we used the bible to justify slavery, misogyny and persecute gay people. Luckily we're progressing beyond that now.
 
Welsh Exile said:
I completely agree. Look at how we used the bible to justify slavery, misogyny and persecute gay people. Luckily we're progressing beyond that now.
Click to expand...
See but now your going too far the other way, people did that stuff because they wanted too, using the bible as an excuse doesn't shift the blame from those people the the bible or religion
 
The Alpha Bro said:
Jews will tell you that the old testament is entirely written by Moses, it definitely predates Jesus.

I had started to write a long response to this but ultimately the point would have been that you are, somewhat bizarrely in my opinion, taking a non-revisionist view to the most revised, most translated and most rewritten book in history. Currently theological debate is whether or not the new testament condemns homosexuality or not, it can be interpreted to condemn pederastry and prostitution only.

It was the same with slavery in the late 18th and early 19th century. A book written for a predominantly enslaved people (early Christians) wasn't anti slavery because it was just part of life at the time.

Whilst churches should officially stop recognising different books within the Bible rather than simply ignoring them I think there's far more damaging things that are ignored today and are definitely more worthy of non-revisionist views. Like there was a bit of push back against statues last summer and a walk around parliament Square today would still show you a eugenicist, a leader of an apartheid regime, a pedophile and multiple partakers in genocide.
Click to expand...
Again, there are many (a majority even) of people that don't subscribe to this view. I'm not concerned with what theologians are debating or trying to now justify. People think that bible is gods word. If you don't think that it's debatable whether you're really a Christian but fine, if you don't believe it's the word of god then I'm interested in how people rationalise this decision.

Half of my problem with it is that it's a sham of a book that no one knows who wrote (multiple people obviously) and has been revised time and time again as to say.

And yes, I agree, the church should call this **** out more but they don't, sadly. They leave it to us atheists.
 
Last edited:
Welsh Exile said:
Morality existed before the bible.

I just find it a bit odd that you consider the bible "real" but you accept that there's some crucial things in it that you disagree with. I think it's fair to say that if there was a book that I took pretty seriously but it had quite a few things I fundamentally found abhorrent that it wouldn't matter how much "good" stuff was in it I would discard it.
Click to expand...
Well don't tell Eve that.... She was the first person that struggled with a moral dilemma.

Christianity isn't just about the Bible. And the Bible isn't everything about Christianity. Why would I have to discard something that plays a part in my faith? No christian is expected to know the bible from start to end, and everywhere inbetween. Some look more to the old testament, while others look to the new.
 

Latest posts

Top