Italy v France, 03/02/13

[London_Italian]

What a game, well done Italy, I hope this spurs the Italian public to really get behind the team and build for the future.

Spot on. The Italian public has really warmed up to the sport over the last 5 years in particular. When i was a young lad in Italy none of my friends new the sport.....but now we discuss it regularly and this is the same for many people. Great result

 

[Amobokoboko]

Well Done Squadra Azzuri!!!! Looking forward to next weekend vs Scotland.

 

[Crapspray]

Great match to watch. The competition really is wide open now, and I really hope Italy get their wish to win two or more games. They certainly deserve it for effort.

Next week will be fantastic- Front runners against each other, Italy and Scotland both playing well, and Wales and France will both be desperate for a good performance.

 

[Big Ewis]

oh and about the "is it France that played like shyt or Italy that played well", I think we can obviously say both w/o any debate.
But France wasn't bad all the way though, so seriously props to Italy, they did really really look good today...

But I'm still going to commit suicide any second now.

P.S.: "favorites", yessssssssssssssssssssss, sure, favorites MYYYYY AASSSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!!!!!!...
I actually thought there might be a slight chance we'd get the Slam this year.....pfffffff, boy oh boy...

 

[psychic duck]

Some of the stick Machenaud is taking is totally unjustified.

Some French are just cross at him for keeping Parra out, but Machenaud is still a quality player in his own right, just see his performance vs Argentina in June on debut. Also made a great break during this match, but people still criticise him begging for Parra to come back, whilst ignoring Parra's own dreadful pass that saw France go backwards in that last attack.

Parra and Machenaud are both good in my opinion, pretty evenly matched, I'd perhaps back Parra on form, but Machenaud is by no means a bad player and he wasn't to blame much for this result.

I think this loss will be a test of PSA's coaching. I think he needs to resist the calls from fickle fans to change half the team after one bad match like Lievremont constantly did, and keep faith in most of it, just making some minor adjustments.

Those should be:
- Fofana has been the best centre in Europe this season, he should play in his best position for France ahead of Mermoz.
- Szarzewski had pretty poor match at lineout, he should be relegated to the bench with Kayser starting.
- Parra has been on some pretty impressive form for Clermont, he and Machenaud should swap.

Also not based on this match but in general. These should be considered.
- Nyanga did not deserve to be dropped, I would probably put him ahead of Ouedraogo.
- Domingo is better than Forestier. He should be France's first choice loosehead.

Spot on. The Italian public has really warmed up to the sport over the last 5 years in particular. When i was a young lad in Italy none of my friends new the sport.....but now we discuss it regularly and this is the same for many people. Great result

They get great crowds for international. But why are the crowds for domestic rugby so dismal then? They are even worse than Wales or Scotland's low domestic crowds. Zebre got just 1,200 for their recent home match against Harlequins in the Heineken Cup.

 

[barthelemy]

Very good win from Italy ! Bravo !

Frenchies were definitely poor today, physically outplayed (about that, as usual, I think we should not forget that all the teams had 1 week more than the french for resting due to the ****in top 14 teams that are not able to find an agreement with the national federation, eternal French organization issue, I think it has played for a part in the poor french performance) and they forgot their brain at home, especially Michenaud/Michalak. Even with a very average performance, France could have still win this one at the end with a a bit more realism.

But I have to say that Italy played particularly well today, Great offensive animation, quick offload, quick game and great defense. They played very clinically and Bravo to them. I guess they could win more match fro this 6th nations if they keep the same pace and nice game.

I'm not even disappointed because I really think Italy played outstandingly well and that we did not deserve to win.

For France, Same old story, good matches in autumn but always the fall that happens at one point. I'm not too sure if one day we will be able to have a team that is able to always win thesekind of matches, after a series of victory.

I would not blame too much PSA on this one, players were definitely not in their match, we have outstanding players on the paper but on the field something is wrong. I agree with the ones that are talking about the backline failure, Mermoz has been dreadfull today, Fritz non existent, Michalak has played crap...only good performance from Huget. The forward pack have never been able to accelerate the game, Dussautoir was transparent and the support was not there. I rarely saw a quick offload from our forward pack, very slow and very lonely most of the time. So with this, Machenaud or Michalak were always playing under pressure.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ Psychic Duck: same things I've been saying before the tournament started...how do you not select Domingo ?!!!!!!!!!...
the Nyanga discussion we've had 100000x.
of course Fofana should play center...everybody in the world agrees...but I suppose with key injuries to our wingers.......

barthelemy : absolutely, and thanks for your comment right there, somewhat comforting.
This match was just an expression of WASTED FKN talent, and it's time after time after time...I do think they were fatigued, looking at how they played like they were fkng asleep. And obviously the players aren't used to each other yet, they're still in top14 in their heads...having just one fkn week to play together before the 6N ffs...

I mean, I'm not directly comparing because it's very different, but this reminded me of the England New Zealand match of November. NZ so good they managed two quick tries as an answer, like we did this time. And a tired/ill NZ side fighting for dear life and under pressure constantly against a much weaker side on paper, same thing here...we were DESPERATE in the last 5min, it was horrible to watch, we were pretty creative but never quite made it to the line...this France side shouldn't ever have to be that desperate to beat Italy. They played very well objectively, but we're better than THIS man.....we're fkn better than this.......

And the thing that hurts me the most...is I thought before the tournament "hey we can get the Grand Slam this year, it's pretty realistic...there's just the one in London that's really tough for us..." and then I thought "wait, we just smashed Aus and Arg and beat Samoa, and 4 wins in a row since the June test - I just don't see France making it that many more in a row..."
And of course, France didn't prove me wrong at all...bam, first match, we lose in Rome.........

I'm frustrated not because we lost simply. I'm frustrated because it's not fair...we're better than this ffs...if we weren't, then no remorse. But the quality players we got on there ??....pffffffffff..

 

[kesh]

^yoe91, i wouldn't get too down beat, there were flashes there were France looked really dangerous, with great flair. An Italy are a side that maybe see themselves as having the 'wood' over France when playing at home. Like Ireland has over England in Ireland, or France over Ireland anywhere. France was Italy's first major scalp, an they backed themselves to repeat it... helped that France made so many mistakes, when did the French line out become completely retarded? Like they'd never threw one before. An them walking round the middle when behind like they didnt give a ****.. The pack smashed an knackered. If there's poor preparation coming after T14, like NZ's loss to England been blamed on a long season, it's still legit as Italy prepared for the match better. Like saying team A players got drunk the night before so team B won. Don't get drunk, pick undrunk players like team B.

Going off that, running NZ close an the Aussies who they were unlucky against, I don't think any team in the 6N can be confident of a win away to Italy, specially now, like no-one would expect to go away an win in Argentina. Only NZ/Aus/SA can truely expect a result in Italy atm.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ yes, and thx for trying to cheer me up man :lol:, I appreciate it !
But...like I said it's not an isolated match with its own rules and properties - this match is like one big paradigm of typical French Rugby failure.
AGAIN we come in not prepared (clear on a number of levels during the match, you mentioned the lineup lol we actually lost possession coz we were too slow on one of them, Szar never threw the ball !!!!!!!...).
AGAIN: we let physicality overwhelm us (a bit) when we should be rampant with our big guys - scrum was fine though, pretty impressive against Italy.
AGAIN we say "yeh yeh, don't underestimate them" and then WE DO. England looked so fokking intense in their last two matches especially (NZ, Sco), forwards pounding into the rucks, not taking shiit from anyone, imposing their will - we looked like we were on fkng cruise control there, even TRAINING looked more intense ffs !!!!...
AGAIN we start waking up wayyyy too late and *bang* you lost the match...

and finally:
AGAIN we lost a match............we - SHOULD HAVE - won...
again - we are the object of a huge upset for some other smaller team...and that annoying, annoying label spontaneously and instantaneously drops on us: "yeh, they're French, they're always inconsistent".

Utter frustration is felt for things that should not be.

 

[kesh]

At least the Welsh get to enjoy the French backlash

 

[Big Ewis]

At least the Welsh get to enjoy the French backlash

yeh, and if not the Welsh...then England two weeks later !

 

[kesh]

yeh, and if not the Welsh...then England two weeks later !

Before the 6N started that was THE game for me, now next week against Ireland has taken the gloss of that. Expected France to win at Twicks tbh whatever the result today. You are French. As in little the things, like French an Italian players lifting each other after rucks an congratulating either an been friendly off the ball. Italy will always be a boggy team for France. There's not enough hate between the sides. Hopefully we get a Liévremont comment to pretend to ignore, an then crush you after beating Ireland an the new dawn of English domination begins.

edit. nor not, kill the jinx!

 

[Aedaphon]

It does look like Italy's developing into a problem game for France. Not sure if there's an equivalent game for every side, but for instance, Wales always has a horrid time against Samoa (although they've been having a horrible time against everyone recently...)

For me, this was just a great result because it livens up the competition. Hopefully in a couple of years every team will be in the running for the ***le, and THAT is a 6 Nations I'm looking forward to.

 

[jaunard06]

Ok, so in the end my fear was justified even though the defeat happened sooner that what I had expected...looks like I was too optimistic about getting a win against Italy but I was right about the poor selection and back line - injured players added to Nyanga could have really make the difference yesterday - and I was right also about Brunel doing a great job, which seems to consistently improve te quality of the italian selection year after year.

In fact it's like if we had learned nothing from this autumn !

I thing we are "up" now for one of the worst tournaments of those last years:
- lack of training,
- too many injuries (pre-and post match),
- no game plan,
- 3 matches away.

Servat, Domingo, Bonnaire, Nyanga, I'm really missing you guys. Maybe some of you have retired but after all we aligned players that were just coming back fro injury after several months without playing so...

Anyways well well done Italy, great match from you guys !! You win that match more than we lost it actually !

 

[smartcooky]

Wow!! Who saw that coming?

And who the hell is this Luciano Orquera guy. That would be one of the best performances by a Number 10 I have seen in a long, long time!

 

[ZeFrenchy]

After calming down, I can finally give my thought on yesterday's game. I think it is very different from two years ago. That time, the game was awful, and Italy won just because France played terribly. Yesterday it was a good game, teams were even, it could have gone either way, and Italy took it, I think, because their tight five carried more effectively, which allowed Orquera to play in the front foot.
My opinions, line by line:
Front row:
Both props look tired. Unfortunately, we can't afford to rest Nicolas Mas. On the loosehead side, Domingo should come in.
I've always thought Szarsweski was very overrated. He does tackle a lot and his breakdown work is ok, but he's too ineffective as a carrier, hardly ever gaining meters and very often losing possession. Kayser and Guirado are ok players, but I don't really know if it is the moment for a change. Dropping Szarsweski right now would effectively ruin him and hold him accountable for yesterday's loss, as most people see him as the undisputed starter. I think PSA should have a long talk with him and tell him that his starting spot is far from sure, and expect a bounce back.
The replacement frontrowers added fresh legs, but I don't think Debaty and Ducalcon are starting material. Ass an added stat, the French starting front row had 11 carries and gained 7 meters, while the replacements had 10 carries for 20 meters. Italy's numbers are 27 and 27 for the starters and 5 and 17 for replacements. Italy gained "that" meter, while France did not.

Locks:
Papé and Maestri were good, securing possession and tackling as they should. Little carrying, and mostly ineffective. Lineout was bad, but that comes to the backrow and the hooker, mostly. Taofifenua was horrible when coming in, but he should be kept in the 23. He's a very talented player, with a lot of potential, and he needs to be backed up now.
Papé hasn't had a pause since September 2010, and this one seems to have been one game too much, as he'll probably be missing at least the next game. I'd call up one of the old guys, either Jullien Pierre or Romain Millo-Chlusky.

Backrow:
So many good players and depth for such an average performance. Picamoles is extremely one dimensional, and was ineffective most times. I hope he learned from his opposite number. Despite all that, he's still a useful player and will be kept.
Dusautoir was out of form, we all knew that. He needs the game time, and he'll be captaining the side again next week, so let's hope he brings his A-game.
Ouedraogo was really underwhelming. He often wasn't there on support when he should have, he makes the tackles but always losing a meter, and is a real step down in lineouts from what Bonnaire was. He calls too often for himself, and the Italian defense could read his calls from the second line out. I'd play Chouly in his place.

Halfbacks:
Maybe Psychic Duck is right, and I'm just upset at Machenaud for keeping Parra out, but I think one good game against Argentina B does not an international halfback make. He retained his credit after an average performance by France against Samoa, where he did not start. It's time to right a wrong and give the 9 jersey to whom it belongs. Parra was definitely controlling the game better when he came on.
Michalak didn't set the world alight, but I fail to see what any alternative could have done differently.

Centers:
This is where it gets tricky. Centers on both sides were very average. Mermoz was invisible, and Fritz did little else than winning a turnover. Fofana should play center, but who to drop is a tricky question.
Bastareaud gained meters but except for one good carry he didn't have much of an impact. One pass for five carries is something I'd expect from a frontrower more than a center.

Back three:
Individually they played all right, but seriously lack cohesion as a unit. Fofana was caught out of position and was not too safe under the high ball, he should be moved to center.
Huget was good, and Trinh-Duc, who replaced him at full back was out of position and too shortly on the pitch, so hard to evaluate.

 

[djwizard84]

What a game, well done Italy, I hope this spurs the Italian public to really get behind the team and build for the future.
Grand slam decider in Rome the last day of the season?

That's exactly what i'm expecting! hopefully Ireland and Italy win their next game and we would have a great match in Rome for St. Patricks day

 

[jaunard06]

What is obvious aside the bad selection and team organization is that we've been under Italy at the same time physically and tactically.

Physically there's no real surprise, if we keep on entering the 6N with only a few hours of training we cannot expect being competitive, and selecting players that are out of form like Dusautoir finally didn't seem to pay either. Our international players are obviously tired, our back row was mostly ineffective which is unusual in french squad. Since the beginning I had a doubt about Ouedraogo and for me he still unable to defend efficiently.

Tactically that's much more surprising, ok Brunel knows french rugby but how did we manage to defend so badly is beyond me...Castro's try should have never happened IMO.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I wonder if this win for Italy and Wales' loss means Italy moves above Wales in the world rankings. I'd calculate but the results will be out in just over an hour so nah.

 

[Big Ewis]

ZeFrenchy, jaunard, I agree with everything you've said.

About Ouedraogo: as someone said, he'll tackle but always one meter too late (in this match he did), and there's one thing that killed me. When Orquera made that last pass to Castrogiovanni for the try, he was taken down by Ouedraogo who tackled him, but didn't even cover the ball !!...The little Italian no.10 is at 1meter of the line, with a HUGE obvious hole on your left and you don't try to smother the ball ?!!! He just tackled him from about the waist, what fkn good will that do with free hands to off-load ?!!!

That was just one monster mistake I meant to underline...I'm sorry but Nyanga deserved the role regardless.