Is the Premiership wage cap a real reason or a lame excuse for poor performance?

[Amiga500]

Following the likes of:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16532593.stm

Leicester Tigers director of rugby Richard Cockerill says the salary cap means English clubs can no longer compete in Europe.

However, the current wage cap is £4 million/year


A few of us in work today were making guesses over the Ulster annual wage bill. The other two guys figured around £2 million, I figured around £3 million.

Breaking it down into the following:
[TABLE="width: 300, align: left"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]No. Players[/TD]
[TD]Wage[/TD]
[TD]Sub Tot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]£200K[/TD]
[TD]£1,000K[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]£150K[/TD]
[TD]£750K[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]£100K[/TD]
[TD]£500K[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]£50K[/TD]
[TD]£500K[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]£30K[/TD]
[TD]£450K[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Totals[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]40[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]£3,200K
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]












So, in the end, do the Premiership coaches have good reason to complain, or are they looking for excuses for their own failings?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's not a particularly good excuse, no.

I'd be very surprised if Ulster were spending under the Aviva salary cap though.

 

[Rugby09]

I think its a bit of both. The French teams can afford to have almost 2 squads as can some of the Irish, but Leicester did not play very well.

Jeremy Guscott mentions in in his blog on the BBC:

"The salary cap doesn't help when it comes to the Heineken Cup and that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. English teams just can't compete with the French and Irish because of the cap, and that's a fact."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9678285.stm

 

[big ginger 8]

Of course Irish teams need a big squad cause of player protection scheme and apart form 5 players all are produced in Ireland.

 

[psychic duck]

I think the English teams are at a disavantage because their international standard players are spread around about 10 clubs plus players to France,

whilst Ireland put all player pool into two teams (bar a few of Northern Irish players), who all pretty much all based in Ireland (bar one or two exceptions), plus they buy players like Nacewa, Howlett etc which means Leinster are able to put the likes of Fionn Carr, Fergus McFadden, Isaac Boss on the bench

Ulster don't have so many Irish internationals and a squad with a lot less depth, but sign quality imports like Pienaar and Muller

if you were to put the vast majority of the English player pool into two teams, and add a few quality imports then they would probably be as good as Munster and Leinster

French teams in general are overrated, there are only two teams worthy of contending for the Cup, Toulouse and Clermont, and the latter have travellling problems, other teams which are often referred to as "giants" such as Perpignan, Biarritz, Racing-Métro actually don't have as strong squads on paper as some build them up to be, however they are able to buy more foreign talent than all the others

Welsh teams split have their players relatively equally right now between 4 teams (although the Ospreys at one point had a distorted amount but no longer), plus lose players to France

Scottish and Italian teams both lose the cream of their talent to England or France

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

****ing ridiculous thing for Cockerill to say, what a dick-head. He only said it there and then because Leicester lost so badly, and the reason they lost so badly was because of underperforming players. Regardless of the wage-cap, the tigers still have more than enough strength in depth to succeed, more so than any other club, its completely insane. Players seemingly queue up to go to Leicester and be a 4th choice (Kitchener, Tait, etc). It's hardly as if they had a significantly stronger team before the wage cap cam in, far from it. Few premiership teams have used up their wage cap, and leicster are undoubdedly nearer to the cap than most teams. Leicester need to get on with it, be thankful for the plentiful money they do have, and cockerill should shut up.

 

[Seaton]

Bah! English clubs can't even compete with the Scottish ones in their pools this season. B)

 

[stus768]

****ing ridiculous thing for Cockerill to say, what a dick-head. He only said it there and then because Leicester lost so badly, and the reason they lost so badly was because of underperforming players. Regardless of the wage-cap, the tigers still have more than enough strength in depth to succeed, more so than any other club, its completely insane. Players seemingly queue up to go to Leicester and be a 4th choice (Kitchener, Tait, etc). It's hardly as if they had a significantly stronger team before the wage cap cam in, far from it. Few premiership teams have used up their wage cap, and leicster are undoubdedly nearer to the cap than most teams. Leicester need to get on with it, be thankful for the plentiful money they do have, and cockerill should shut up.

I agree. Don't understand why someone like kitchner would go somewhere to be sat on a bench. Hopefully Ford does better.

 

[racingmetrofan]

I him the wage cap should be changed slightly. For example ,why should Leister have to pay the 'market price' for Flood, Youngs, Cole etc at the expense of the other players because of the salary cap. Personally I don't think the wage cap should apply at all for a clubs own developed academy players - and then outside that they can set it at whatever they want. Might help clubs with functioning academies hold on to their players as well.

 

[Peat]

It's not a particularly good excuse, no.

I'd be very surprised if Ulster were spending under the Aviva salary cap though.

The figure I've heard is 4m. Depending on whether that includes the money paid by the IRFU towards central contracts and NIQs (I believe it does but cannot swear to it) we're just under, or a fair bit over - and also paying ridiculously high wages.

I think the English teams are at a disavantage because their international standard players are spread around about 10 clubs plus players to France,

whilst Ireland put all player pool into two teams (bar a few of Northern Irish players), who all pretty much all based in Ireland (bar one or two exceptions), plus they buy players like Nacewa, Howlett etc which means Leinster are able to put the likes of Fionn Carr, Fergus McFadden, Isaac Boss on the bench

Ulster don't have so many Irish internationals and a squad with a lot less depth, but sign quality imports like Pienaar and Muller

if you were to put the vast majority of the English player pool into two teams, and add a few quality imports then they would probably be as good as Munster and Leinster

French teams in general are overrated, there are only two teams worthy of contending for the Cup, Toulouse and Clermont, and the latter have travellling problems, other teams which are often referred to as "giants" such as Perpignan, Biarritz, Racing-Métro actually don't have as strong squads on paper as some build them up to be, however they are able to buy more foreign talent than all the others

Welsh teams split have their players relatively equally right now between 4 teams (although the Ospreys at one point had a distorted amount but no longer), plus lose players to France

Scottish and Italian teams both lose the cream of their talent to England or France

I've believed this for a long time although it should be noted that Ireland don't put their player pool into two provinces as a conscious decision, but rather that's where the players have been produced, and most of the best Irish players playing abroad have been lost from Ulster (although a lot of those have recently declined anyway). Its worth noting that the real contenders at the moment are Leinster and Toulouse, and a bunch of others.

****ing ridiculous thing for Cockerill to say, what a dick-head. He only said it there and then because Leicester lost so badly, and the reason they lost so badly was because of underperforming players. Regardless of the wage-cap, the tigers still have more than enough strength in depth to succeed, more so than any other club, its completely insane. Players seemingly queue up to go to Leicester and be a 4th choice (Kitchener, Tait, etc). It's hardly as if they had a significantly stronger team before the wage cap cam in, far from it. Few premiership teams have used up their wage cap, and leicster are undoubdedly nearer to the cap than most teams. Leicester need to get on with it, be thankful for the plentiful money they do have, and cockerill should shut up.

Leicester did have a significantly stronger team before the wage cap; the quality of their squad has deteriorated with the wage cap; and are being actively held back by the wage cap.

They didn't lose because of it, but it does affect their (and a few others clubs') competitiveness in Europe. Considering that Embra look set to cruise through on a tiny budget, money is not the be all and end all; but they're not going to win the thing. If we want more English clubs to qualify from their groups, we need better standards of coaching. If we want more English clubs to win it, they're going to need more money.

It should also be noted that the wage cap has got tighter. It has not raised with inflation and it has not taken notice of the pound's fall against the euro. You can less compared to European teams than you did.

I'd raise the salary cap. I would also tie a significant amount of the raise to the number of EQPs in a team.

 

[gingergenius]

The salary cap should be reduced significantly and make it applicable only to foreign players. So, wealthier clubs can spend as much as they like on good English players, but all have the same budget for foreigners and have the choice - a few stars or a large group of competent squad members.

I don't want a situation in France/ like football where the squads are full of good players who never get gametime. And we can't mirror the Irish regional system either, that would betray the traditions of English rugby's league hierarchy. Besides, the Premiership is still a quality competition. Munster and Leinster may be the ones winning in Europe, but the Aviva is significantly better than the Pro12 as a product.

 

[Peat]

The salary cap should be reduced significantly and make it applicable only to foreign players. So, wealthier clubs can spend as much as they like on good English players, but all have the same budget for foreigners and have the choice - a few stars or a large group of competent squad members.

I don't want a situation in France/ like football where the squads are full of good players who never get gametime. And we can't mirror the Irish regional system either, that would betray the traditions of English rugby's league hierarchy. Besides, the Premiership is still a quality competition. Munster and Leinster may be the ones winning in Europe, but the Aviva is significantly better than the Pro12 as a product.

Out of curiosity, what do you base this on?

Because I'd say the standard of play is higher in the Pro12 and the fact that they're going to get twice as many teams as us in the QF would suggest its stronger.

I'm also not sure as to how creating a limitless budget for English players would create a situation where good players aren't used as back-ups/back-ups to back ups.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As a product: Crowds are higher (on average) for Aviva than Pro12, and I'd imagine TV ratings are higher too.

 

[Peat]

As a product: Crowds are higher (on average) for Aviva than Pro12, and I'd imagine TV ratings are higher too.

Fair point, but I can't help but think that the quality of the play is low down on the list of reasons for that.

 

[j'nuh]

The salary cap should be reduced significantly and make it applicable only to foreign players. So, wealthier clubs can spend as much as they like on good English players, but all have the same budget for foreigners and have the choice - a few stars or a large group of competent squad members.

Please, no. If this were to happen, the leeching of young academy players would be worse than it is in football. Top clubs will flesh out their squads with the hottest prospects from other clubs without any worry of how they'll fit it under the salary cap. No thanks.

 

[Teh Mite]

Because I'd say the standard of play is higher in the Pro12 and the fact that they're going to get twice as many teams as us in the QF would suggest its stronger.

not comparing apples with apples. Guinness, Magners and Heineken are very different products.

 

[welshglory]

The standard of play in the Aviva is higher than the Pro12 in my opinion. The Aviva forward packs are usually drilled very well, the defences are strong and the teams try to make the least amount of mistakes that they can. Relegation also means that no games can be taken for granted. While in the Pro 12 there are so many errors, teams regularly rest players for the HC games and it is a non relegation league so the teams simply don't always have to play well. The only teams that play good quality of rugby in the Pro 12 (in the HC most of the teams give a good account of themselves) are Munster, Leinster and Ulster/Scarlets (sometimes they're crap) the rest of the teams play some truly pathetic rugby sometimes, especially the Welsh regions.

The fact that there are however many quater finalists from the Pro12 doesn't say anything. The majority of teams in the Pro12 see the Pro12 as a development league and the HC as the main prize.

 

[psychic duck]

The Aviva Premiership is a better league than the Pro 12

because in the Pro 12 in the majority of matches the teams aren't full stength, for example the recent Ulster Leinster match would never happen in England as teams have to fight for European qualification and table position

also winning the Pro 12 doesn't mean as much to the teams, for example the Ospreys have won the trophy three times yet most people consider them underachievers based on their Heineken Cup lack of success, also Munster won the trophy last season but would probably consider the season a failure as they failed to get out of their group

to be honest another advantage the Irish teams have over the English teams is that the league isn't so important and they don't have to fight over qualification for Europe so can afford to rest players before big European matches

people are getting confused between the watered down Celtic sides which play in the league, being the full strength sides in the H Cup

 

[gingergenius]

What shouldn't be forgotten is the fact that both Wasps and Leicester have produced awesome sides in the last decade that have been on the same level as Leinster and Toulouse are now. English rugby as a whole isn't at its strongest, but looking optimistically we know Leicester and Northampton are capable of competing at that level, Quins have the potential to do so and Saracens are a very good side as well. If the premiership can produce four good sides and get 2-3 into the HC QFs each year then I don't think that's too bad at all, considering that the French and Irish have massive advantages. The biggest achievement this season is Edinburgh.

 

[Amiga500]

As a product: Crowds are higher (on average) for Aviva than Pro12, and I'd imagine TV ratings are higher too.

Population of England: ~51 million

Population of Ireland: ~6 million
Population of Scotland: ~5 million
Population of Wales: ~3 million
Total: 14 million


Is it any wonder attendances are a bit different? (I haven't included Italy as rugby is proportionally under-represented relative to England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales)