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Irish Summer Tests

Spence has to prove himself in big games for Ulster first. Like Cave did in the final of HEC.


This is something I hate. It's been glaringly obvious for the last 24 months that Darren Cave had been at the very least the second best 13 in the country. The fact that he has to 'prove himself' in a Heineken Cup final, while Peter O'Mahony can get a national selection off the back of group and CL form, shows that the inherent bias in Irish selection policy.
 
This is something I hate. It's been glaringly obvious for the last 24 months that Darren Cave had been at the very least the second best 13 in the country. The fact that he has to 'prove himself' in a Heineken Cup final, while Peter O'Mahony can get a national selection off the back of group and CL form, shows that the inherent bias in Irish selection policy.

And Spence has done the latter, including a reasonable QF showing. These games showed his limitations as well, but if you're just going to ask a centre to take contact well, tackle everything that moves, make obvious passes, have a break and run very quickly if he gets through - then I reckon he'd probably do it all at the higher level. He's not subtle, but his athleticism carries him through.

Besides, who know's where he'll be in a couple of years? He's certainly closer to the break-through than many, including I'd say a few named.
 
Probably not if this squad is ought to go by

Forwards (16):
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena /Ulster)
A.N. Other
A.N. Other
A.N. Other

Backs (13):
Darren Cave ( Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) Captain
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
A.N. Other

Doesn't appear to be many surprises. I'm a bit out of the loop with respect to Irish rugby - could some kind poster give me a bit more info on the following players:
Declan Fitzpatrick (obviously a prop, but what side does he play, and can he scrummage?)
Darren Cave
Simon Zebo

A pretty experienced looking squad (especially if O'Connell is fit). I expect they will push the AB's in at least one of the tests (probably the 1st one).
 
Declan Fitzpatrick is a tighthead who has been spotted doing impressions of a loosehead when injury demands it. They're not particularly convincing ones, although that might have been due to other factors. Fitzpatrick can scrummage, he basically got into this squad on the back of pulverising Embra's front row in the HC SF - and that front row had about a 120 international caps between them. At HC level he's a strong scrummager who makes a few carries and doesn't get made to look like a twat around the park. Whether he can scrummage well enough at the next level, not entirely sure. Whether he can do enough around the park at international level, equally none too sure.

Darren Cave is pretty much an out and out 13. Between injuries and the obvious impediment to out and out 13s in Irish rugby, he's not really had the chance he deserves yet. There are slight doubts about his top-end speed but that's it - he's a very intelligent player who makes a lot of space for players around him, an excellent defender, good feet and can kick if he needs to. I tend to compare him to Conrad Smith - near identical builds, similar playing styles - although he's not as experienced, nor does he possess as good a set of hands, and just not quite as good.
 
Declan Fitzpatrick is a tighthead who has been spotted doing impressions of a loosehead when injury demands it. They're not particularly convincing ones, although that might have been due to other factors. Fitzpatrick can scrummage, he basically got into this squad on the back of pulverising Embra's front row in the HC SF - and that front row had about a 120 international caps between them. At HC level he's a strong scrummager who makes a few carries and doesn't get made to look like a twat around the park. Whether he can scrummage well enough at the next level, not entirely sure. Whether he can do enough around the park at international level, equally none too sure.

Darren Cave is pretty much an out and out 13. Between injuries and the obvious impediment to out and out 13s in Irish rugby, he's not really had the chance he deserves yet. There are slight doubts about his top-end speed but that's it - he's a very intelligent player who makes a lot of space for players around him, an excellent defender, good feet and can kick if he needs to. I tend to compare him to Conrad Smith - near identical builds, similar playing styles - although he's not as experienced, nor does he possess as good a set of hands, and just not quite as good.

Thanks for that Peat.

Hopefully for Ireland Fitzpatrick can establish himself at test level, as they really need a good backup to Mike Ross (who is key for Ireland). I'm sure Irish supporters are happy they have picked a prop who can scrummage ;)

Good to hear Ireland have a quality centre coming through to replace O'Driscoll. He sounds like the sort of centre I like too. I suppose we are unlikely to see anything of him unless O'Driscoll is injured though (as they won't likely carry a specialist centre on the bench).
 
Doesn't appear to be many surprises. I'm a bit out of the loop with respect to Irish rugby - could some kind poster give me a bit more info on the following players:
Declan Fitzpatrick (obviously a prop, but what side does he play, and can he scrummage?)
Darren Cave
Simon Zebo
Declan Fitzpatrick - Mike Rosslite
Darren Cave - Brian O'Driscolllite
Simon Zebo - Keith Earlslite

Seriously though, Fitzpatrick can lock a scrum reasonably well but won't contribute around the park. He's John Afoa's backup at Ulster. He can do a job for Ireland at tighthead in 20 minute bursts but we're in trouble if he sees more game time than that. I like Cave a lot. He's not flashy but does everything well. Had a very good Heineken Cup final, leading Ulster's defence and being their most impressive attacking threat. Zebo is a tremendous finisher who has everything in his locker - speed, tackling ability, improving hands, kicking game, good fielder of the ball. He needs to buck up his defensive positioning and concentration. In an attacking sense, he's very exciting. Declan Kidney has shipped a lot of criticism for picking him but I think it's a positive move.
 
The criticism is mainly because of Gilroy I think, he's at the moment a better player, younger and has at least as much potential.
 
The criticism is mainly because of Gilroy I think, he's at the moment a better player, younger and has at least as much potential.

I agree with this Gilroy is a much better man beater, defender and a lot smarter than Zebo and at least equal in finishing. Picking Zebo ahead of him just proves his pathetic Munster bias.
 
Darwin - It's possible that they might look at moving O'Driscoll in one and giving Cave a start. I think I've seen it suggested, although that might just be me being hopeful. However, when you consider that D'Arcy's a busted flush at international level, and that between Cave and Earls Ireland aren't short of 13s.

The whole Zebo thing has produced some of the most beautiful spite on the internet I've ever seen. Some of its slightly ridiculous, he's a talented young player. However, it's fairly contentious that he should be going ahead of Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney - and as you can see, it's led to a few accusations of bias...

While I don't think I'd call Kidney biased myself, it's getting harder to refute.
 
For an outsiders point of view from what i've seen of Zebo he has regularly shined for Munster and looks to have something really special about him, the X factor if you will. While Gilroy has had moments of brilliance and also times where he just disappears and has looked shaky in defence at times.
 
Darwin - It's possible that they might look at moving O'Driscoll in one and giving Cave a start. I think I've seen it suggested, although that might just be me being hopeful. However, when you consider that D'Arcy's a busted flush at international level, and that between Cave and Earls Ireland aren't short of 13s.

The whole Zebo thing has produced some of the most beautiful spite on the internet I've ever seen. Some of its slightly ridiculous, he's a talented young player. However, it's fairly contentious that he should be going ahead of Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney - and as you can see, it's led to a few accusations of bias...

While I don't think I'd call Kidney biased myself, it's getting harder to refute.

How much experience does O'Driscoll have at 12? Not really a big issue when you have a player of O'Driscolls class, I'm just curious as I've never seen him play there (nor heard of him playing there).
 
How much experience does O'Driscoll have at 12? Not really a big issue when you have a player of O'Driscolls class, I'm just curious as I've never seen him play there (nor heard of him playing there).

Not a whole lot, but as you say, not a big issue for the likes of him.
 
A lot of the time he switches with D'Arcy (who is a natural 13) during the game, or at least he used to when they were both younger.
 
While I think Gilroy equals Zebo I think both are ahead of Dave Kearney. He's still trying to make Leinster team even 23 when squad is fully available while other 2 have cemented spots. Don't see what harm would've been done bringing Gilroy and Zebo.
We really are low on tour for natural wingers
 
While I think Gilroy equals Zebo I think both are ahead of Dave Kearney. He's still trying to make Leinster team even 23 when squad is fully available while other 2 have cemented spots. Don't see what harm would've been done bringing Gilroy and Zebo.
We really are low on tour for natural wingers

In DK's defence though Leinster have far more strength in depth in the back three than either Ulster or Munster. Rob Kearney and Nacewa would always be first choice to start big games, as would Fitzgerald when he is fit. He also has McFadden ahead of him at the moment, and any one of those four players would probably make the Ulster or Munster starting fifteen, or the bench at the very least.

It's worth pointing out though that the only reason that there is an extra spot on the wing for the tour to New Zealand is the injuries to Bowe and Fitzgerald. If either of them were fit then they probably would have been in the squad for New Zealand and we wouldn't be discussing the respective merits of Gilroy, D. Kearney or Zebo, and which of them should have been left out. :)
 
Don't see what harm would've been done bringing Gilroy and Zebo.
We really are low on tour for natural wingers
Spot on. Both should have gone. Both are ahead of Dave Kearney in my view.

By the same token, Ian Madigan should have gone as 3rd choice flyhalf behind Jonny Sexton and Ronan O'Gara.

While I've no problem bringing Paddy Butler up to get a taste of the atmosphere at international level, I don't see much point in calling up a 31 year old backrower who'll never be capped in a position where Ireland are strong. That said, with Leinster players out of contention for the Barbarians game, who else could he call upon? Eoin McKeon maybe.
 
For an outsiders point of view from what i've seen of Zebo he has regularly shined for Munster and looks to have something really special about him, the X factor if you will. While Gilroy has had moments of brilliance and also times where he just disappears and has looked shaky in defence at times.

I'd use this description but swap the names around. Zebo's biggest problem is his defense. While he does possess some flair I find it very hard to recall him actually beating a man by stepping him he mainly just tries to burn his opposite number which doesn't and won't always work.
 
So he's able to play with ****ed up knees but a calf strain may keep him out? In the short term this is annoying long term it's probably a good thing. New Zealanders can breath a sigh of relief that they won't be hit by him. Still have SO'B running at them though.

So in Kidney's mind probably:
6. SO'B
7. PO'M
8. Heaslip

19. Henry
 
So he's able to play with ****ed up knees but a calf strain may keep him out? In the short term this is annoying long term it's probably a good thing. New Zealanders can breath a sigh of relief that they won't be hit by him. Still have SO'B running at them though.

So in Kidney's mind probably:
6. SO'B
7. PO'M
8. Heaslip

19. Henry

So this isn't a good time to point out that Hugh Farrelly reckons O'Brien and Healy are now doubts as well?
 

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