IRFU offer Connacht new backing to boost performance ...

[Conal]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/connacht/9255885.stm

The Irish Rugby Football Union and Connacht Rugby have unveiled a new structure in an attempt to boost performance within the province.

Leinster, Munster and Ulster have made a commitment to allow more movement of selected players to Connacht as part of the agreement.

The IRFU claims it will allow Connacht to benefit from the playing talent from the other provincial academies.

They believe this will help develop the strength of Ireland qualified players.

There will also be a new Independent Professional Game Board (PGB) to oversee all aspects of the game and increased support from the IRFU.

The PGB will be chaired by Jimmy Staunton and will consist of a wealth of knowledge and experience from both the business and sports worlds.

Former Connacht and Ireland scrum-half Conor McGuinness is among the new board members, which will be accountable to the new IRFU management committee.

Ireland coach Declan Kidney hailed the announcement as "a pivotal day for Irish rugby".

"I think today's announcement is a big step for both Connacht and Irish Rugby.

"I have always believed that the Ireland team can only become stronger with four competitive provincial teams.

"Competition for places, and in particular in a number of key positions, has been something that we have been trying to develop with the Ireland team over the last 18 months.

"The new developments in Connacht can only add to this as game time is essential for the development of players."

IRFU chief executive Philip Browne said: "The commitment received from the other three Irish provinces in the movement of players to Connacht is to be commended - it is a central element of the initiative."

an irish player exchange program???
whats peoples thoughts on this ???

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

an irish player exchange program???
whats peoples thoughts on this ???

It's a good move. Ireland needs 4 teams to be competitive. With additional funding Connacht could add more players to Declan Kidney's panel to John Muldoon, Gavin Duffy, Brett Wilkinson and Sean Cronin.

My other thought is what's in it for the other provinces? If Connacht are resourced to a greater degree, it puts the other provinces Heineken Cup places at risk. I can only assume there's a carrot there for Leinster, Ulster and Munster. Perhaps they've agreed to back more movement to Connacht if the can have their pickings of Sean Cronin, Fionn Carr and Ian Keatley. Maybe they get a first option on players returning whenever they want them. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[Conal]

i know what you mean snoop there has tobe something in it for the other provinces espically ulster as where most under threat to lose are hcup place
i think they will try and use connacht as a magners league training ground
but still demmand some loyalty from there players
so mabey nevin soence for example would go on loan but still be loyal to ulster??

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

so mabey nevin soence for example would go on loan but still be loyal to ulster??

That's what I'm thinking. Using Spence as an example (and he's a good example), he unlikely to feature for Ulster in the centre too much with Cave, Trimble, Wallace and Whitten around. Connacht lack quality centres. Ulster allow Spence go to Connacht for gametime at 13 and to learn his trade but can re-sign him whenever they want. Also, say Munster or Leinster decide they want Spence after a couple of years. Ulster get first option on re-signing him thus preventing Munster or Leinster from "stealing" their player.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm sure players that go on 'Loan' to Connacht will be legally contracted to retrurn if required the IRFU will have all that sorted. And players who move to Connacht etc wont be taking paycuts.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I've been thinking a bit about where Connacht need reinforcements. This is their current squad and academy (missing from the lists are Rodney Ah Youand Dylan Rogers):
http://www.connachtrugby.ie/2009082081962/connacht-squad-20092010
http://domestic.connachtrugby.ie/200912081476/connacht-academy-20092010

It's clear that they lack quality depth at prop, a decent backup hooker, a couple of starting second rows and a bit of depth in the backrow. They could use a couple of starting calibre centres, a backup outhalf, backup full back and perhaps a starting winger too. Not much then! This is a quick list of realistic targets from other provinces who could make an impact (I'm limiting it to guys who could have international potential):

Props: Dave Ryan, Darragh Hurley, Jack McGrath, Stewart Maguire, Adam Macklin
Hookers: Mike Sherry, Tom Sexton, Sean Henry
Second Rows: Ian Nagle, Dave Foley, Dave O'Callaghan
Backrows: Paddy Butler, Tommy O'Donnell, Paul Ryan
Outhalf: Ian McKinley, Declan Cusack
Centres: Eamonn Sheridan, Brendan Macken, Nevin Spence, Ivan Dineen
Wings: Simon Zebo, Danny Barnes, Darren Hudson, Michael Keating
Fullbacks: Dave Kearney, Niall Morris, Sean Scanlon

I believe the other provinces could lose these players for a year or two without it impacting too much on their current squads. Obviously Connacht would be looking for a higher quality of recruit (Andrew Conway, Ian Madigan, Paddy McAllister, Craig Gilroy, Scott Deasy, Peter O'Mahoney level players) but those guys are integral part of their present provinces Magners League squads already and are progressing nicely where they are. The players I've listed by position above sorely need game time.

If I'm Eric Elwood, I'd go out of my way to recruit Dave Ryan, Mike Sherry, Ian Nagle, Paddy Butler, Ian McKinley, Brendan Macken and Nevin Spence as a priority. All would immediately improve the Connacht matchday 23 with Nagle, Butler, Macken and Spence having a great chance to start most weeks. Sherry would dovetail well with Sean Cronin while Ryan and McKinley would provide a bit of spark from the bench. I'd also look to relocate a bit of experienced squad depth from other provinces (Stephen Keogh and Barry Murphy spring to mind) and try to get players like Tom Hayes and John Andress from the Premiership to come back to Ireland. If this was achieved, some of the less valuable members of the squad could be released (I'm thinking about all their backup props, Bernie Upton, Dave Nolan, Liam Bibo, Brian Tuohy and the like).

That's a semi-realistic scenario. A matchday 23 like this would be pretty decent and would fulfil the "development province" mandate:
Duffy, O'Halloran, Macken, Matthews, Carr, Keatley, Murphy; Wilkinson, Cronin, Hagan, Hayes, Nagle, Muldoon, Ofisa, Butler. Subs: Sherry, Ryan, Andress, McCarthy, O'Connor, Willis, McKinley, Spence

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop only thing I'd say is provinces like Munster and Leinster have to think also about our A fixtures in B&I cup and when internationals are gone so I really don't think we'd let much go.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's the IRFU trying to win support back after their complete cock up over ticket prices. But i can't see any good players being involved in the project unless their past it.

 

[Conal]

i think thats why there is this new deal so instead of having good a teamsfor 3 provinces (ulster lenister and munster)
there would be 4 competitve provinces in the magners which would surely be better for irish rugby

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Snoop only thing I'd say is provinces like Munster and Leinster have to think also about our A fixtures in B&I cup and when internationals are gone so I really don't think we'd let much go.

That's where my opinion differs slightly from yours. The B&I Cup and other A fixtures are undoubtedly beneficial for the three bigger provinces in helping players develop. Without it players such as Dominic Ryan, Rhys Ruddock, Ian Madigan and Andrew Conway wouldn't have made the step up to the Magners League this season quite so easily. That level isn't the be all and end all though. The guys I've listed in my previous post have already played at schools international level, u20 international level, one season of B&I Cup and countless other A fixtures. They need another step up if they're to progress.

Using Michael Keating as an example, he's a regular in the AIL for Clontarf and he's played 10 Leinster A games between friendlies, interpros and B&I Cup games. By now he's well accustomed to senior rugby. I belive it's more beneficial for him to play competitive Magners League games for Connacht than it is for him to bide his time on a Leinster development contract.

Ian Nagle is another example. He's 22 now and looks comfortable at ML level but is buried beneath the O'Cs, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha Ryan on the depth chart. It's no use giving him games for Munster A and the odd game for Munster when he could be starting for Connacht in the ML and European competition every week. One or two seasons at Connacht would battle harden him and make him a certain starter for Munster and Ireland at the age of 24 or 25. Staywhere he is and he risks stagnating. One only has to look at Donnacha Ryan's career trajectory to see that sticking around waiting for your opportunity isn't always the best move.

If I'm Joe Schmidt I'd let Jack McGrath, Stewart Maguire, Paul Ryan, Ian McKinley, Eamonn Sheridan, Brendan Macken, Darren Hudson, Michael Keating, Niall Morris and Dave Kearney move to Connacht (assuming they're wanted by Eric Elwood) for 12-24 months so that they can play more games. If they're good enough, they'll return as more rounded players, better equipped for competitive rugby. In their place the likes of Jack O'Connell, Martin Moore, Michael Kearney, Jordi Murphy, Cathal Marsh, Noel Reid, Alex Kelly, Sam Coghlan Murray and Andrew Boyle get exposed to B&I Cup rugby for Leinster. Then 12-24 months down the track, allow these players move west if they aren't featuring for the Leinster 1st team by then. That's a sustainable player development model which benefits Connacht, Leinster and Ireland.

 

[MunsterMan]

If It is to work it should players with the potential to be Internationals, who Kidney and his staff identify, and suggest to Elwood. If Elwood likes them, Connacht make an approach, and Kidney has a word encouraging them to do it.

If it is to work it can't be academy players either, no matter how much Munster want to hold on to Nagle or Leinster want to Conway, if they can't prove he is going to get gametime they should let them go to Connacht on a 1 year deal.

Munster have Sean Henry, a promising hooker (Munsters depth at hooker is ridiculous all the same) who is from Connacht, he is another good candidate. An Irish development team is all well and good but you need local lads to boost attendances and support.

Dave Ryan/Mike Sherry/Darragh Hurley
Ian Nagle/Dave Foley
Peter O Mahony/Paddy Butler
Duncan Williams
Scott Deasy

5 of those is a very decent contribution from Munster, I think it is fair to say all those players have international potential. The point I'm trying to make is those are the kinda players who should be going and not the Academy guys

 

[coonor]

I agree the concept should be more for players who have completed the academy at their province but now can't get a place in the first squad and are now stuck in a place where they are not progressing. Their needs to be a process where the provinces and the IRFU decides which players go where. For example we don't want 5 centre going to Connacht. We need to send players to Connacht that would benefit the most. Does this concept only work for Connacht or other provinces aswell?

 

[munstermuffin]

I accept that Snoop and I agree with your views on players been better tested at ML level with Connacht than in B&I cup but would the provinces release these when they have to think about situations such as the AI's, the World Cup and IRFU player management. I know in Munster that our depht in quality isn't that deep and well the players I'd expect us to send are the likes of Tom Gleeson, Simon Zebo, Billy Holland and few like that. If better quality is loaned then IRFU will have to agree that like in England if your not in the 23 for national team then your released back to province.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

From the Galway Independent:

http://www.galwayindependent.com/sport/sport/elwood-contract-extended-as-connacht-get-irfu-backing/

Connacht are in negotiations with Cronin and a decision by the 24-year old Limerick man to stay would be huge, and could also persuade the likes of prop Jamie Hagan, winger Fionn Carr and fly-half Ian Keatley — all of whom are being targeted by their native Leinster — to stay at the Sportsground.

This doesn't exactly tally with reports that the big three provinces are going to help Connacht more than they did in the past.

Assuming it's true and all four players move east (as unlikely as it is), it would push a lot of players who've been making strides further down the depth chart. Cronin signing would limit gametime for Jason Harris Wright and Tom Sexton. Hagan would compete with Mike Ross and Stan Wright (who could shift to loosehead since Cian Healy is going to the World Cup), would make Ben Prescott, Simon Shawe and Clint Newland expendable and also push Stewart Maguire further away from 1st team rugby. Keatley would allow Leinster dispense with the underrated Shaun Berne in favour of a NIQ in another position, compete with Jonathan Sexton for game time after the World Cup and move Ian Madigan and Ian McKinley further down the depth chart. Carr would have a chance to take over from an ageing Shane Horgan, push Dave Kearney and Niall Morris further away from 1st team rugby and possibly allow Luke Fitzgerald move into the centre on a more permanent basis.

Connacht would be hugely weakened by this and by extension, Leinster's strength in depth would grow massively. In my opinion, the player most likely to move to Leinster is Ian Keatley. He's done all he can with Connacht and the challenge of competing with Jonathan Sexton could be the making of him. Sean Cronin is a possibility but reports seem to suggest he's holding out for a move to Munster- apparently Leinster chased Mike Sherry's signature last season so it's possible that Sherry moves east, Cronin moves home and Tom Sexton or Jason Harris Wright go to Galway. Jamie Hagan is probably better served staying where he is for another season. Fionn Carr needs a move if he's to get on Declan Kidney's radar. Leinster is very possible but I think he's just as likely to move to a decent Premiership team.

 

[munstermuffin]

The thing is if for example they lost those 4 players and they were replaced by 4 talented youngsters then that would set Connacht back in a big way.
It good replacing their talent but these guys are vastly experienced and Connacht need that. Like I think if Cronin moves then that'd be good and maybe Denis Fogarty (who is supposed to be in talks with Leinster) moving to Connacht that would be good for both players and IRFU. Fogarty in my opinion is behind Sherry too.
Carr I think would make a big mistake if he left as, while I think he is a good player, I am unsure would he make a Leinster team next year. He isn't in same class as Fitzgearld, Nacewa and while Horgan may be on way out there is alot of talent in the backs.
Hagan won't get in at prop and Keatley obviously won't shift Sexton from the 10 shirt and Sexton is too young for him to move and bide his time. Yes he could play off the bench (like Boss has done) but if you want to be a serious international 10 you want to be playing full 80 as much as possible.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I agree that a move isn't in Hagan's best interests at the moment. It could be argued that Cronin should stay too since he's already an international and it would be a great statement of intent for Connacht. I think Carr should look to move to boost his international prospects- he can do no more with Connacht. Keatley too has got his fill of game time in a struggling team and needs a new challenge.

Keatley obviously won't shift Sexton from the 10 shirt and Sexton is too young for him to move and bide his time. Yes he could play off the bench (like Boss has done) but if you want to be a serious international 10 you want to be playing full 80 as much as possible.

It's not about shifting Sexton from the 10 shirt. Keatley won't go to the World Cup while Sexton will. That'll give the current Connacht player a run of maybe 7 or 8 games to stake a claim on the Leinster 10 shirt unopposed. With the way the modern game is going, you need strong squads. I think you need two complete sets of tight 5 forwards and half backs of a similar level who are capable of coming on and upping the tempo of a game around the 50 minute mark if needed.

Tony Buckley was an Ireland international despite being primarily a sub until this season. Damien Varley has mainly been used as Jerry Flannery's backup thus far and is an international anyway. Devin Toner and Donnacha Ryan haven't established themselves as 1st team regulars yet both have been capped. Sean O'Brien won his 1st cap when he was primarily used an an impact sub for Leinster. Cian Healy is clearly Ireland's number 1 loosehead yet he splits his game time with Heinke van der Merwe at club level. Not playing 80 minutes every week isn't necessarily a hindrance. Keatley would start 60-70% of Magners League games and be an impact sub in the others and Heineken Cup games. He'd be one injury away from starting every big game. He could easily become an international player with that sort of gametime.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that Keatley probably needs a new challenge. Munster now looks unlikely given ROGs new contract. Ulster is a possibility since their 10s are inconsistent but moving to Leinster could be the challenge he needs. Moving to the Ospreys from Ulster and fighting for his place was the making of Tommy Bowe- who's to say that a similar sort of move won't be the making of Ian Keatley? It would be bad for Connacht though.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop I'm not saying Keatley will be a bad player if he on bench for Leinster but I'm thinking beyond 2011 and well he wants to be a starter at 10. Not just for Irish chance but as a player. If he were to go to Leinster as a back-up in big games at 10 then eventually if ROG retires and an Irish youngster comes in at 10. That guy will have a big edge over Keatley.
Also our views may differ but I think it easier to adopt rotation in forwards as opposed to backs.

Also if Keatley were to move then wouldn't Munster be a better move. ROG will be retiring in 2 years and well possibly next season will be his last as a starter so then Keatley could be a starter. I just feel he has to be starting (and I'm not just on about a WC year) and well with Sexton being young I think Munster may be better option.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

If he goes to either Leinster or Munster he'll be competing with an Ireland international flyhalf. At least with Leinster it's his home province. Also Sexton appears to be Ireland's 1st choice 10 now so it's more likely that Keatley will start while Sexton is on international duty.

I also think if you want to be the best, you have to challenge the best. What better way for Keatley to put it up to Declan Kidney than to take Sexton's provincial place? Such a strategy put Isaac Boss back into the international picture this year and could work for the Connacht flyhalf too. Looking at it from a Leinster perspective instead of through Irish eyes, I want my province to compete with the best- namely Toulouse. They have two international calibre 10s in David Skrela and Freddie Michalak; in fact they have two international class players in every position. That's what Leinster have to aspire to.

I think we're getting bogged down on a side issue though. The main point is that Keatley leaving would be very bad news for Connacht. Where he ends up is besides the point.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop I agree it'd be a great move for Leinster and Keatley would do well but also it'd be disastrous for Connacht. I do disagree on Boss though because he was always 4th choice scrum-half for AI's and once TOL was ruled out he was never in doubt of been included.
For Connacht issue though I have been thinking and well the only thing I can see is provinces sending players who are 10-20% chance of really making it and well here my reasons.
For example why would we(Munster) want to send a really good youth prospect to Connacht when we will need him for when injuries or internationals are away. Also if we send a player out we feel we are effectively gambling with controlling his development as we can't monitor as closely.
But if we send a mediocre player down then if it works out that this guy becomes excellent then great we get him back a better player and if not then at least we seen making the gesture.
Also we will have to consider a players happiness and will some young guy want to risk leaving Munster/Leinster for Connacht.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I think Connacht could pick up some big time prospects from the other privinces. Looking at the most successful recent departees to Connacht, they were all 21 or 22 years old, starred for the Ireland u20 or u21 team and were buried behind a glut of talented players in their position at their home provinces. For example:

Sean Cronin - 21/22 when he moved west. Star for Ireland u21s. Standing out for Shannon. Called up by Ireland A. Behind Ireland internationals Frank Sheahan and Jerry Flannery along with Ireland A cap Dennis Fogarty.

Fionn Carr - 21/22 when he moved. Stood out at underage level. Scoring tries for fun for Blackrock. Behind Isa Nacewa, Shane Horgan, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald and Gary Brown for Leinster and unlikely to push past them.

Ian Keatley - flyhalf on the Ireland u20 grand slam team. Ireland A and 7s international. Playing in the AIL. Behind Felipe Contepomi, Jonathan Sexton, Christian Warner and Isa Nacewa.

Jamie Hagan - late developer but starter for Ireland u20 grand slam team. Playing regularly in the AIL. In a few Leinster extended squads but behind CJ van der Linde, Stan Wright and Mike Ross.

All were highly rated but circumstances denied them game time. I see Jack McGrath, Stewart Maguire, Ian McKinley, Michael Keating, Ian Nagle, Mike Sherry and Paddy Butler as falling into this category. They're 21 or 22 year old underage stars who need to prove themselves at senior level. All are highly rated yet none can be guaranteed significant game time yet. A move west to get games and hone their skills would benefit the players development, his native province in the long run and Connacht in the short to medium term.