Ireland vs France - 09/03/2013

[coonor]

This has become embarrassing!

 

[Tony Manx]

This has become embarrassing!

What....the game over and I missed it?

 

[Amiga500]

This has become embarrassing!

It'll be some craic if he has to bring Tom Court and Radge back* into the squad to cover at THP and 10!

DeClown really has f**ked up this time...





*The two players he dumped as scapegoats for the Scottish result.

 

[munstermuffin]

It'll be some craic if he has to bring Tom Court and Radge back* into the squad to cover at THP and 10!

DeClown really has f**ked up this time...





*The two players he dumped as scapegoats for the Scottish result.

Wont be Court anyway as rumours are that Archer and Bentvare already called in to camp. Didn't hear Courts name but open for correction

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Congrats to Ronan Loughney. If Stephen Archer is called up to the bench, Loughney is no longer the worst prop to play for Ireland.

 

[psychic duck]

Honestly who is it who rates Stephen Archer and puts him forward to even get in the Munster team never mind Ireland?

He seems a pretty poor scrummager, the only time I have seen him on top was against the inept Campese Ma'afu against the Blues, but other than that it is normally the other way round and there is a monumental difference between the Munster scrum depending on whether Archer or Botha is on the pitch. I notably saw him get dominated by the Ospreys reserve props earlier this season.

And it's not as if he's exactly a gem in the loose either. And the last I saw of him was a very pointless and stupid sin bin that probably cost Munster the win against Ospreys as the next play was that they kicked to the corner and scored from a drive.

At least Buckley was handy in the loose despite not being the best at the scrum. What does Archer offer? From what I've seen, I would say Jamie Hagan is better than him for sure.

 

[munstermuffin]

In fairness to Archer this season he has done well and let's not forget he took apart Court recently. In not saying he's ready for cap (or deserving) but I'd certainly have him on form ahead of Bent. Archer is still young and has showed great signs of improvement over past year and his scrummaging has improved hugely. I think if Munster were to be brave he would improve a lot more if tested in HEC games but as I say that could be risky. A mixture of bit of decline in Botha and improvement in Archer has closed gap between them. But he isn't good enough for international rugby but certainly ahead of Bent who seems to be Big Peter Borlaise (version 2)

And Duck is disagree as Hagan has gone so far back since going to Leinster again that there no way anyone can judge him. He took a gamble going to Leinster and in a way his career has taken a major turn for worst. Yea he gets odd game but is never going to reach his potential now because Leinster have nice schools players coming up and there is 1/2 THPs there that will really come up trumps

 

[profitius]

Honestly who is it who rates Stephen Archer and puts him forward to even get in the Munster team never mind Ireland?

He seems a pretty poor scrummager, the only time I have seen him on top was against the inept Campese Ma'afu against the Blues, but other than that it is normally the other way round and there is a monumental difference between the Munster scrum depending on whether Archer or Botha is on the pitch. I notably saw him get dominated by the Ospreys reserve props earlier this season.

And it's not as if he's exactly a gem in the loose either. And the last I saw of him was a very pointless and stupid sin bin that probably cost Munster the win against Ospreys as the next play was that they kicked to the corner and scored from a drive.

At least Buckley was handy in the loose despite not being the best at the scrum. What does Archer offer? From what I've seen, I would say Jamie Hagan is better than him for sure.

How many times have you seen him play lately?

 

[munstermuffin]

How many times have you seen him play lately?

Obviously not a lot as anyone who has been watching boys in red as I know profitius you have would know he is doing ok. I think he has chance to be HEC level starter but not international and HEC level won't be for 2/3 years more IF improvement continues although BJs decline has fastforwarded him a bit. But I'd certainly say people here are commenting on Archer from 12 months ago but if anyone has watched consistently Munster this year he has been 1 of few positives in season

 

[profitius]

Obviously not a lot as anyone who has been watching boys in red as I know profitius you have would know he is doing ok. I think he has chance to be HEC level starter but not international and HEC level won't be for 2/3 years more IF improvement continues although BJs decline has fastforwarded him a bit. But I'd certainly say people here are commenting on Archer from 12 months ago but if anyone has watched consistently Munster this year he has been 1 of few positives in season

Indeed, MM. I wouldn't blame people for thinking hes no good because they might have only seen him get pummeled in the scrums and I didn't think much of him over previous seasons but in fairness he has come on a good bit this season especially the last few months.

The thing about Archer is he always had the strength but lacked technical ability so the opposition took advantage of that. It now looks like he is coping better as well as winning 2 or 3 penalty tries this season. He is also young for a prop and still very inexperienced so its likely he'll continue to improve for years to come. I would say Botha could be having an influence on the Munster props.

 

[Big Ewis]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3820_8543188,00.html

"In our first match, without taking away from the Italian performance (a 23-18 defeat), we let the match drift past us, the second (a 16-6 home loss to Wales) was a real hard-fought tussle until we lost in the 72nd minute (conceding the only try of the match) and the third (a 23-13 defeat against England), we lost our way in the second-half.", Dusautoir.

 

[coonor]

Listen to RTE and you'd think this 6N was about given ROG a good send off. How pathetic.... its not Kidney's fault that O'Gara's career has ended like this, its just another Irish international failing to make the big retirement decisions at the right time. Had he retired after the WC, then this debate over his form and career would not even be happening. Overall ROG is a different player, he no longer has the classy composure.

On Archer, I will concede that he has improved this year but that's simply a relative point out of context with the Irish team. Dundon has improved stunningly this season but would be no where near an Irish cap.

 

[cyRil]

Listen to RTE and you'd think this 6N was about given ROG a good send off. How pathetic.... its not Kidney's fault that O'Gara's career has ended like this, its just another Irish international failing to make the big retirement decisions at the right time. Had he retired after the WC, then this debate over his form and career would not even be happening. Overall ROG is a different player, he no longer has the classy composure.

He should have retired after the 1999 WC and saved me a lot of hassle!!

 

[munstermuffin]

Listen to RTE and you'd think this 6N was about given ROG a good send off. How pathetic.... its not Kidney's fault that O'Gara's career has ended like this, its just another Irish international failing to make the big retirement decisions at the right time. Had he retired after the WC, then this debate over his form and career would not even be happening. Overall ROG is a different player, he no longer has the classy composure.

On Archer, I will concede that he has improved this year but that's simply a relative point out of context with the Irish team. Dundon has improved stunningly this season but would be no where near an Irish cap.

But coonor it is relevant because Archer is the best of bad bunch left. It not as if he ousting someone better IF he selected.
And regards ROG I ok with dropping him but it the manner in which they do it. Kidney made a balls of. Madigan should have been number 2 from start. Jackson isn't as great and that in my opinion was a wrong call. Also on ROG he was terrible yet was always on bench then when he plays well he's cut completely. Now again I think it the right call but way it was done was a joke and disrespectful. Drop him but reference it as opposed to release a squad with just names and open up flood gates for journalists to have a field day.

 

[coonor]

But coonor it is relevant because Archer is the best of bad bunch left. It not as if he ousting someone better IF he selected.
And regards ROG I ok with dropping him but it the manner in which they do it. Kidney made a balls of. Madigan should have been number 2 from start. Jackson isn't as great and that in my opinion was a wrong call. Also on ROG he was terrible yet was always on bench then when he plays well he's cut completely. Now again I think it the right call but way it was done was a joke and disrespectful. Drop him but reference it as opposed to release a squad with just names and open up flood gates for journalists to have a field day.

Is Archer really the best? I'd rather have Loughney, Bent and possibly even Adam Macklin and Hagan ahead of him. Having said that, either way we'd be screwed against France!

This ROG saga has been handled poorly, but its a long term issue of continuing to play ROG even on the bench. Had Jackson or Madigan been on the bench against Argentina or SA, then they may have had atleast 2 caps. It's not alot buts atleast its something to build upon. O'Gara is a very good rugby tactician and certainly one of Ireland's modern greats. People can speculate about different scenarios but at the end of the day O'Gara's impact and position in the team over the last decade is unarguably great.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How pathetic.... its not Kidney's fault that O'Gara's career has ended like this, its just another Irish international failing to make the big retirement decisions at the right time.

How is it not Kidney's fault? Ronan O'Gara met have got a good 5-10 caps since the World Cup so why would he retire? Had O'Gara been told to retire internationally after the World Cup he would have had a couple seasons with Munster the decline in his form wouldn't have been noticed on as large a scale and everything would be better. Kidney continued to play O'Gara who is a competitor in every sense of the word and probably still thinks he's a better player than Sexton and wants to play for Ireland, O'Gara will never think he's not good enough for Ireland because he's a winner and always has been so to say that O'Gara has handled this situation badly and not Kidney is ridiculous.

 

[munstermuffin]

As I said O'Gara being dropped isn't issue as I think it fair call it the manner in which it was done. Also the way the captaincy issue was done it just seems to be a lot of a F up in PR department and it's bad player management.

With regards prop situation, I think Archer is best as Loughney is worst, Bent has been a complete disaster and is rumoured to be on an early departure from Leinster he is that bad, Hagan has ruined his career in some aspects by going to Leinster and stuck in reverse, and I seen Macklin twice this season (vs Munster and Scarlets) and well he was destroyed and too far off Ulster XV. Archer has always had the raw materials and simply has improved this year due to getting technical stuff alot better. And has benefited from game time this season.

 

[Amiga500]

To be honest, fellas the ROG issue is just reflective of wider problems.

For instance:
- Why are the coaching contracts not run in the 4 year world cup cycle? No forward planning.

- Why have none of the international tours (in the past I dunno how many years) not had matches against provincial sides so younger guys could get game time without the coach having to stick it all on the line in the 6N or in rankings relevant game? No forward planning.

- Why are the central contracts not cycled up to a world cup (but not beyond), the player's age reviewed after it, and a decision on whether to continue on a central contract made based on whether they are available for the next world cup? No forward planning.

- Why is the captaincy not reviewed after every world cup and anyone who won't be at the next world cup is automatically relieved/not a candidate for the role for the next 4 years. No forward planning.

Its endemic.

 

[munstermuffin]

To be honest, fellas the ROG issue is just reflective of wider problems.

For instance:
- Why are the coaching contracts not run in the 4 year world cup cycle? No forward planning.

- Why have none of the international tours (in the past I dunno how many years) not had matches against provincial sides so younger guys could get game time without the coach having to stick it all on the line in the 6N or in rankings relevant game? No forward planning.

- Why are the central contracts not cycled up to a world cup (but not beyond), the player's age reviewed after it, and a decision on whether to continue on a central contract made based on whether they are available for the next world cup? No forward planning.

- Why is the captaincy not reviewed after every world cup and anyone who won't be at the next world cup is automatically relieved/not a candidate for the role for the next 4 years. No forward planning.

Its endemic.

Well in a nut shell if it sounds simple the IRFU will run as they are awkward. That has been a debate for years - Why are we only nation it seems that plan on a year to year if not Autumn to 6 Nations to Summer basis and don't plan ahead. Like we should've learnt from the last RWC when it was shown we planned poorly and ended up with Buckley as a LH prop, Court as a TH prop and The Bull on reserve even though he wanted to retire and had little interest in going.
In fairness about the provincal games on tours it very messy situation in terms of organisation and paperwork and I'd forgive IRFU for that, but rumours are now anyway that there will be a major revamp of central contracts with only 7/8 on offer and a restructuring of way provincal contracts are dealt with so maybe some good will happen there although equally it could open up a gate for players to try abroad.

 

[big ginger 8]

A lot of that could be answered with because not everyone considers the WC to be the be all and end all of rugby. Also it's impossible to sync player contracts at least to a world cup.