Ireland Squad 2017/18

[Leonormous Boozer]

No but see you'v missed the point. He knew already he was gone but highlighted Schmidt's flaw of 1 rule for Leinster guys and another for the rest when Madigan was selected.
Wheather you agree or not he has achieved his aim. On Zebo though I thinks he's well ahead of Kearney but IMO he's not in form And I agree on Schmidt not selecting guys leaving but the point was more consistency.
And on Madigan bit the point is he was selected despite saying he was off right up to the June. And you will say but there was noone else. But there was Keatley etc. And yes Keatley wasn't playing well although in my eyes Madigan was never a top 10 which has kinda shown as he's never nailed a spot anywhere in a top league.
But back on it the point was it wasn't enforced. Keatley And any other guy who was committed to stating should've been selected regardless of form.
Now more so here in France today they'v stoked the fires too with a comment on how Schmidt has never done a Slam due to his rigid ways and is average in terms of success for all the hype.

If that's the point it's a bad one. Keatley's form that year was not worthy of international selection, he was terrible to the point Munster fans were jeering him, the next option was Carty who wasn't Connacht's starter. Madigan was also dropped for the SA tour prior to Sexton's injury, if Ireland didn't have an embarrassment of riches in the back three right now or had the options at 10 they do now back in 2016 things would have been different, provincial bias under Schmidt exists in the minds of a select few in Munster and Connacht and nowhere else.
Madigan and Zebo is a good comparison though, 30 and 35 caps respectively, never 1st team starters without injuries, left for France upon the realisation that they probably would never be number 1 in the hope they improve their game/make big bucks, both considered extremely highly in their home provinces and not so much elsewhere. But to use Mads as a precedent to argue Zebo's case for selection is a weak one because other factors we're very different.

 

[munstermuffin]

If that's the point it's a bad one. Keatley's form that year was not worthy of international selection, he was terrible to the point Munster fans were jeering him, the next option was Carty who wasn't Connacht's starter. Madigan was also dropped for the SA tour prior to Sexton's injury, if Ireland didn't have an embarrassment of riches in the back three right now or had the options at 10 they do now back in 2016 things would have been different, provincial bias under Schmidt exists in the minds of a select few in Munster and Connacht and nowhere else.
Madigan and Zebo is a good comparison though, 30 and 35 caps respectively, never 1st team starters without injuries, left for France upon the realisation that they probably would never be number 1 in the hope they improve their game/make big bucks, both considered extremely highly in their home provinces and not so much elsewhere. But to use Mads as a precedent to argue Zebo's case for selection is a weak one because other factors we're very different.

But you are missing the point. The fact Madigan was considered set the tone. Form is regardless. Zebo was in super form in November and was dropped. A non starting Carty or a poor form Keatley should have been selected if the same rule was applied.
That is the fact. I think It a case of Schmidt said because Zebo is leaving he is out when gone. It more a case of him saying does the same rules apply.
Like I get you think it's a poor argument but again it comes down to provincial view. Most outside Leinster think Schmidt gives preferential treatment to Leinster. Most inside think opposite. But regardless it's a bit of an irrelevant argument for now but shines spotlight on Schmidt and how he approaches this going forward.
As someone asked here in Paris tonight if a load announce they are leaving after RWC 19 how is it approached?
For example Murray' deal is up in Aug 2019. If he signed for French club it will mean he is technically contracted to French club in Sept 19 e'e though he won't join up until after RWC. Does he become ineligible?

 

[Groundhog]

We're a year away from a World Cup. If Zebo expects to be kept in the squad when we have an embarrassment of back three players in Munster, Leinster and a wunderkind in Ulster he's seriously naive. If he had any international ambitions he'd go to France post WC, but he wants to make his money and that's fair enough, the catch is you lose your shot at Ireland. I wouldn't want any player not available for World Cup selection playing this year. The 6 Nations is not a place to experiment, but we have many quality players that are far from experiments.

 

[munstermuffin]

We're a year away from a World Cup. If Zebo expects to be kept in the squad when we have an embarrassment of back three players in Munster, Leinster and a wunderkind in Ulster he's seriously naive. If he had any international ambitions he'd go to France post WC, but he wants to make his money and that's fair enough, the catch is you lose your shot at Ireland. I wouldn't want any player not available for World Cup selection playing this year. The 6 Nations is not a place to experiment, but we have many quality players that are far from experiments.

But I think everyone missed the point. He knee he had no chance. It was a dig at different standards

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But I think everyone missed the point. He knee he had no chance. It was a dig at different standards

But the standards aren't different. Keatley and Carty were at best average Pro12 players when Madigan was picked. Zebo is up against up and coming and proven internationals in Conway, Stockdale, Kearney, Earls and McFadden as well as guys like Sweetnam, Byrne, O'Halloran, Carbery and Larmour who show plenty of potential to play there and you still have Dave Kearney and Craig Gilroy who are better in their positions than Keatley or Carty were two years ago.

It's all coming across as petty and ungracious for Zebo rather than him bringing up any pertinent point.

 

[munstermuffin]

But the standards aren't different. Keatley and Carty were at best average Pro12 players when Madigan was picked. Zebo is up against up and coming and proven internationals in Conway, Stockdale, Kearney, Earls and McFadden as well as guys like Sweetnam, Byrne, O'Halloran, Carbery and Larmour who show plenty of potential to play there and you still have Dave Kearney and Craig Gilroy who are better in their positions than Keatley or Carty were two years ago.

It's all coming across as petty and ungracious for Zebo rather than him bringing up any pertinent point.

But you refuse to see.
Was Madigan leaving same as Zebo. Yes.
The competition is irrelevant.
It's not as if Madigan miles better either. But you back the guy committed. Simple as.

You might disagree But well that was point being made is it 1 rule for all or a discretion rule. The circumstances are same.

The alternatives are irrelevant. We not flush for locks yet our best 2 on form Ryan and Beirne are ineligible

 

[munstermuffin]

Had a think of this on way home from Paris tonight and sorry but there is no difference in the Zebo and Madigan scenario?

Did both indicate they wanted to leave? Yes
Did both leave for money? Yes

Zebo point was it should be same rule for all.
Your only defence was we had no great back up 10 and a riches now in back 3.
But again that is a judgement call. Now we know my views on RK and yours. The point is at 15 I could argue we don't have any solid experienced guy other than Zebo worth his spot. You could argue different.
The same could be said back the re Carty or Keatley. Also I never seen Madigan as a solid 10 so he certainly isn't an exception rule. The point is it comes to judgement. I don't think Zebo should be in squad btw.
Just the point is what it is Schmidt has to be consistent in this going forward and not as suits. He hasn't been and well there is a reason he divides many. Like what's done with Madigan is done and I agree on the approach with Zebo but he has to be consistent. And you always back the guy committed long term unless it was a RWC. And that's irrelevant of alternatives otherwise it's a flawed rule

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I'm not sure why a big deal is being made about this. Rules change over time. The rule being applied to Simon Zebo is the exact same one which applied to Donnacha Ryan. Once he signed a contract elsewhere and said he was off, he's no longer considered by Ireland.

It's not an ironclad rule anyway. If Tadhg Furlong, Conor Murray or Johnny Sexton moved out of the country they'd still be selected because they're world class. Zebo isn't. Not going to argue the point about Madigan because I really don't care and Ireland didn't have depth at 10 when he announced his move to Bordeaux. There are lots of options in the back three for Ireland by comparison.

Joe Schmidt has to do what's best for Ireland, not what's consistent. If he's to ship any criticism it's about a signing he and the IRFU rubber stamped for Munster; Gerbrandt Grobler. Before I'm accused of jumping on the topic this week, I posted this in the Munster thread in July:

On Gerbrandt Grobler, I don't wish him any ill on a personal level and hope he's a huge success with Munster in a position where the need reinforcements . The fact that he admitted to doping stands to him rather than making up a bullsh*t excuse however I'd rather a stand was taken against dopers and they had no place in Irish rugby.
............................................

Some excellent performances over the weekend from perspective Ireland squad players. Thought Keith Earls and Chris Farrell were very good for Munster. John Conney gives Ireland a strong 4th scrum half candidate. Robbie Henshaw once again looked better at 13 than 12 in Leinster's demolition job on Glasgow. Heard Ultan Dillane put in a good shift for Connacht.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm not sure why a big deal is being made about this. Rules change over time. The rule being applied to Simon Zebo is the exact same one which applied to Donnacha Ryan. Once he signed a contract elsewhere and said he was off, he's no longer considered by Ireland.

It's not an ironclad rule anyway. If Tadhg Furlong, Conor Murray or Johnny Sexton moved out of the country they'd still be selected because they're world class. Zebo isn't. Not going to argue the point about Madigan because I really don't care and Ireland didn't have depth at 10 when he announced his move to Bordeaux. There are lots of options in the back three for Ireland by comparison.

Joe Schmidt has to do what's best for Ireland, not what's consistent. If he's to ship any criticism it's about a signing he and the IRFU rubber stamped for Munster; Gerbrandt Grobler. Before I'm accused of jumping on the topic this week, I posted this in the Munster thread in July:

On Gerbrandt Grobler, I don't wish him any ill on a personal level and hope he's a huge success with Munster in a position where the need reinforcements . The fact that he admitted to doping stands to him rather than making up a bullsh*t excuse however I'd rather a stand was taken against dopers and they had no place in Irish rugby.
............................................

Some excellent performances over the weekend from perspective Ireland squad players. Thought Keith Earls and Chris Farrell were very good for Munster. John Conney gives Ireland a strong 4th scrum half candidate. Robbie Henshaw once again looked better at 13 than 12 in Leinster's demolition job on Glasgow. Heard Ultan Dillane put in a good shift for Connacht.

I'm not disagreeing on the rules etc just pointing out that was the point made.

On Grobler I think it's pathetic out of some journalists who just want spotlight. Yes he failed test but served his punishment. He will be leaving in summer likely just hope he can enjoy his time despite being targeted. He's a lovely lad too.

On squad. Certainly plenty of depth. On Munster Farrell was very good but disappeared at times. Earls is as good as I'v ever seen him. Most Racing people I met yesterday said he was best player on field. I'd disagree though as I thought Ryan and Nakawara were unreal

 

[Groundhog]

Punishment for doping should be longer, but he's done time and then some. I just find it ridiculous how certain media elements, especially one track rats like Kimmage, a doper himself, suddenly dogpile on an issue that surely would have been more relevant when we'd signed him and then the mouthbreathing unwashed all pile in on Munster as an organisation for signing him and the sarcastic comments about honesty etc come out. If you don't want dopers in Ireland like Snoop, that's a fair stance, and I welcome people expressing it, but it's become a media shitshow at this stage, and not just on this issue. Sharks circling for blood.
And saying this it probably wouldn't come on my radar if Leinster had signed him either. I have no loyalty to the player whatsoever and he'll be off soon, but the coverage it's gotten is disproportionate.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I saw this tweeted earlier:

This was Ireland's Six Nations squad last year. Announced on the 23rd. 40 players.
3 LH
3 Hookers
3 THs
5 Second Rows
8 Backrows
3 Scrumhalves
2 Outhalves
5 Centres
8 Back Three players. Using that breakdown - pick your 40 man Irish Six Nations squad.

Using the same criteria, what would your squad be? I think there'll be a couple of shocks:

3 Loosehead: Cian Healy, Dave Kilcoyne, Jack McGrath
3 Hookers: Rory Best, Rob Herring, Sean Cronin
3 Tightheads: Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Finlay Bealham
5 Second Rows: Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, James Ryan, Ultan Dillane, Quinn Roux
8 Backrows: Peter O'Mahony, CJ Stander, Dan Leavy, Jack Conan, Josh van der Flier, Jordi Murphy, Max Deegan, Sean Reidy
3 Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Kieran Marmion, Luke McGrath
2 Outhalves: Johnny Sexton, Ian Keatley
5 Centres: Robbie Henshaw, Bundee Aki, Chris Farrell, Stuart McCloskey, Rory Scannell
8 Back Three players: Jacob Stockdale, Keith Earls, Rob Kearney, Andrew Conway, Jordan Larmour, Fergus McFadden, Craig Gilroy, Joey Carbery

John Ryan could lose out due to being relegated to Munster's second choice.

Kieran Treadwell hasn't done enough for Ulster of late.

Backrow is short on numbers with Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock injuries. Max Deegan would be a call for the future.

Scrumhalf is very tight. Could easily see John Cooney in there.

Garry Ringrose would be there if fit.

Alex Wootton, Darren Sweetnam, Tiernan O'Halloran, Matt Healy and Barry Daly are all live contenders for back three spots.

 

[munstermuffin]

Would Tadgh Beirne be possibility?
Best form lock around

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Could be. Would he have as much access to Beirne during the 6 Nations as he does the rest of the squad?

I'd say he has a better shot at making the summer tour when the coach could see him up close for a solid month. Certainly a better option than Ireland's current 5th choice locks and probably better than that again.

 

[Groundhog]

Beirne says he's heard nothing from Schmidt which is understandable given he can't be managed for camps etc by the IRFU now. Probably no harm in Schmidt telling him he's in the picture upon his return anyway.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Front Row: Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Best, Cronin, Scannell (Herring if he's injured), Furlong, Porter, Bealham.
Second Row: Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Beirne (Roux if we don't want to pick him)
Back Row: O'Mahoney, Stander, Van Der Flier, Leavy, Conan, Murphy, Deegan (U20 RWC Player of the Tournament a few years back, why not), O'Donnell

SH: Murray, McGrath, Cooney
OH: Sexton, Keatley, Carbery (He counts as a full back)
Centre: Henshaw, Aki, Farrell, McCloskey, Scannell
Back Three: R Kearney, Larmour, Carbery, Earls, Stockdale, Conway, McFadden, B Daly

Edit: SOB over O'Donnell if he can make it back for the end.

 

[munstermuffin]

Front Row: Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Best, Cronin, Scannell (Herring if he's injured), Furlong, Porter, Bealham.
Second Row: Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Beirne (Roux if we don't want to pick him)
Back Row: O'Mahoney, Stander, Van Der Flier, Leavy, Conan, Murphy, Deegan (U20 RWC Player of the Tournament a few years back, why not), O'Donnell

SH: Murray, McGrath, Cooney
OH: Sexton, Keatley, Carbery (He counts as a full back)
Centre: Henshaw, Aki, Farrell, McCloskey, Scannell
Back Three: R Kearney, Larmour, Carbery, Earls, Stockdale, Conway, McFadden, B Daly

Edit: SOB over O'Donnell if he can make it back for the end.

Well both Tommy and SOB ruled out. As Is Niall Scannell

 

[munstermuffin]

On form the team would be

1. Tough call. Healy on best form over last 3 months but obviously missed few weeks. Kilcoyne has been very consistent and probably deserves 17 shirt. McGrath has been ok bit not great but we know type of player he is. I'd go for Healy with Kilcoyne at 17.
2. Easy here which is a worry. Best is easy choice with only Scannell near bit Scannell out. The best bench option would be Cronin but with him rumoured to be going to Bristol he is getting the Zebo treatment. So I'd guess it Herring or Tracy.
3. Furlong easily. Regards 18 shirt. Ryan is best of rest but not playing. Beckham playing well but Schmidt doesn't seem to rate him. Porter is an experiment that is hyped a bit so I'd predict he will get nod.
Locks. Best 2 locks are plating abroad based on form. But Henderson is sure for 1. The fact Beirne has committed to returning I'd love to see him involved but fact he has no camp tome I'd guess Toner will be in with Ryan benching. Treadwell gone backwards, Dillane inconsistent and Roux not at that level.
Backrow. I'd go for POM Leavy and Stander. But Conan Jordi and VDF putting up battles.
9 and 10 are easy. Murray and Sexton. Reserves based on form Keatley deserves 22. 21 shirt is Cooneys on form but McGrath if based on game plan.
12. Aki or Rory Scannell for me. Both in superb form and good enough. Aki will get nod I feel.
13. Henshaw and Farrell on squad but Henshaw to start. Henshaw has looked much better as a 13. Yes I know he offers alot at 12 but offers more at 13.
11 and 14. Earls and Stockdale. Earls has been the best winger in Ireland by a distance recently. Stockdale based on Nov performances but feel Conway closer than we think.
15. I would love to see Lamour here but feel it will be Kearney. Zebo is out f contention I presume and that is fair.

What I think should be based on available options
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. Toner
5. Henderson
6. O'Mahony
7. Leahy
8. Stander
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Aki
13. Henshaw
14. Stockdale
15. Kearney. I want Larmour but it'll be TO.

16. Herring/Tracy. Again I want Cronin
17. Kilcoyne
18. Ryan. Think Schmidt will keep him as he has been there all along, gametime is due to medical conditions mixed with Archer form.
19. Ryan. Not much options
20. Murphy due to flexibility
21. McGrath
22. Keatley
23. Conway

 

[Leinster Fan]

Well both Tommy and SOB ruled out.

Damn. Treadwell then I suppose, but if we get to the point where we're using our eighth (12th if you count current injuries) choice back row we may as well give up.

 

[munstermuffin]

Damn. Treadwell then I suppose, but if we get to the point where we're using our eighth (12th if you count current injuries) choice back row we may as well give up.

Treadwell more a lock. I think on your backrow options and on camps etc Jack O Donoghie will be a live option or Sean Reidy

 

[Groundhog]

There's an impression O'Donoghue hasn't pushed on in Munster but he's in a similar position to a lot of the Leinster guys where his incumbent will be near impossible to shift. When he's played he's been really good to my mind. Definitely a 6/8 though.
Squad announced at lunch I think.