Ireland RWC 11 Thread

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I agree with pretty much everything you say there. There are two small points I disagree with.

Why is Ian Keatley not ready after 3 seasons as a starter with Connacht yet Conor Murray is ready after four months as a starter with Munster? Keatley isn't a complete player by any means but if Ireland want a 10, he's better than Wallace. McFadden can cover 12 as effectively as Wallace while Trimble can also play there and has done internationally.

understand that Hagan isn't going because he wasn't in the traning squad. What I disagree with is the choice not to have him in that squad in the first place! He's been better than Hayes for the last 18 months. Put it this way, if Hayes and Hagan were the same age and neither had been capped before, who do you think Kidney would have picked? The coach placed too much faith in Hayes' experience and not enough in the fact that his career has been in freefall since the 2009 Lions tour.

IMO the only reason Paddy Wallace and Tony Buckley are going is due to versatility and has nothing to do with their form. I say that as a fan of Wallace since I think he's a pretty good player but he hasn't shown it in 2011.

 

[Peat]

Kidney clearly wanted a player who could cover 10 and play an outside back position or two (Wallace has come on at full-back a few times recently for Ireland... ). In those terms, Wallace was really about the only player who could do it. After that you get Ian Keatley, who's played a bit at 12 and 15 for Connacht last season. So, snoopy's right. Wallace is going for his versatility and not his form. Although his international form is better than D'Arcy's at the moment if you ask me, butchered try and all.

However, I think Kidney's right to lay the emphasis on a player who plays as an outside back and who can cover 10, as are you really going to start Keatley before ROG or Sexton in any game that matters? I also think he's right to not rate Keatley that highly. He probably is a better out and out fly-half than Wallace, but he's hardly a wonderful player, and parachuting him in on the back of no full caps against anyone who matters and no Heineken Cup rugby would have been a risky business.

Leaving Jamie Hagan at home and taking Buckley makes me giggle though. Hagan is possibly the unluckiest Irish player out there, saving Felix Jones.

 

[big ginger 8]

Tony Buckley are going is due to versatility

How could you actually put that down. I'd have been rolling on the floor laughing (rofl if you will), as well he can't actually play either side. I know you don't rate him it's just that sentence is hilarious.

 

[profitius]

No he hasnt. Hes offered absolutely nothing time and time again while playing 8 or 6. Nowhere near good enough for international rugby. Same with Ryan. He looked about 10 yards off the pace against Scotland and France but because he fell over with the ball (behind the gain line of course) a few times everyone thinks hes some kinda rugby player. Hes not good enough as a 6 or a 4.

What about Leo Cullen? Is he good enough for international rugby?

I think Ryan is playing much better than DOC in the past few months. Hes better than McLaughlin IMO and McCarthy too. Why doesn't Ryan deserve to be there? In what areas is he not good enough?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

How could you actually put that down. I'd have been rolling on the floor laughing (rofl if you will), as well he can't actually play either side. I know you don't rate him it's just that sentence is hilarious.

He's going due to his versatility in Declan Kidney's eyes, not mine.

 

[big ginger 8]

I know but it's still funny.

 

[Logorrhea]

I think Ryan is playing much better than DOC in the past few months. Hes better than McLaughlin IMO and McCarthy too.

So you think he is a better 4 then DOC and a better 6 then both McLaughlin and McCarthy?

Why doesn't Ryan deserve to be there? In what areas is he not good enough?

For which position? Is he a 6 or a 4? As a 6 hes about as dynamic and mobile as John Hayes, he cant carry, cant support the play, and isnt capable of getting from breakdown to breakdown. As a 4 he doesnt have the grunt, the raw power to impose himself on a game, and isnt good enough at the bits and pieces associated with playing lock. I'd prefer MOD (heaven forbid) or Nagle. A proper specialist lock.

What about Leo Cullen? Is he good enough for international rugby?

Hes captained the HEC winning side twice (lost another final), is actually capable of calling a lineout (unlike one other 71 cap international veteran) and is frequently acknowledged as a serious pain in the arse to play against. Hes the key member in the pack that went head to head with the best teams in europe and won pretty much every time. Yet you think hes not good enough? Tell you what, why not give the guy a run of games and we'll see .............. ahhh no sure we'd have to drop the king of the invisible work to do that. Couldnt do that.

 

[profitius]

So you think he is a better 4 then DOC and a better 6 then both McLaughlin and McCarthy?

I think hes a better overall player.

For which position? Is he a 6 or a 4? As a 6 hes about as dynamic and mobile as John Hayes, he cant carry, cant support the play, and isnt capable of getting from breakdown to breakdown. As a 4 he doesnt have the grunt, the raw power to impose himself on a game, and isnt good enough at the bits and pieces associated with playing lock. I'd prefer MOD (heaven forbid) or Nagle. A proper specialist lock.

Actually hes very mobile with a high workrate so you're wrong there. Go back and watch the first match against France the other week and keep an eye on him. He put in a huge shift and it wouldn't have gone unnoticed to the professional coaches.

Hes captained the HEC winning side twice (lost another final), is actually capable of calling a lineout (unlike one other 71 cap international veteran) and is frequently acknowledged as a serious pain in the arse to play against. Hes the key member in the pack that went head to head with the best teams in europe and won pretty much every time. Yet you think hes not good enough? Tell you what, why not give the guy a run of games and we'll see .............. ahhh no sure we'd have to drop the king of the invisible work to do that. Couldnt do that.

I never said he was't good enough but Ryan is better in some areas, which all the posters totally ignore.

 

[Logorrhea]

I think hes a better overall player.

So hes a better 4 then O'Callaghan and a better 6 then McLaughline and McCarthy. Jees hes some player.

Actually hes very mobile with a high workrate so you're wrong there.

You are actually serious there yeah? Tell you what, go look at any of the modern international number 6, you know, the players Ryan is meant to compete with, players like O'Brien, Kaino, Elsom (even when playing ****), Burger, Lydiate, Dusatoir, Haskell ........... or yes McLaughlin. Some of these guys are pretty average, but they would still **** all over Ryan. He just doesnt have the game for a modern 6. He is not mobile enough, regardless of how many times you tell yourself.

Oh and work rate is not a positive, its expected. This is international rugby we are talking about, not some park game.

I never said he was't good enough but Ryan is better in some areas, which all the posters totally ignore.

Which areas is he better at? Being a **** number 6? A more mobile but underpowered number 4? Hes not a front jumper, offers no leadership on the pitch, hes an average lifter, underpowered for the scrum, cant call a ****in call a linout. Where is he superior to Cullen? Hes a faster runner?

 

[King_D'Arcy]

Yeah I agree with log it has to be said... I don't really see what Ryan has to offer. He's a fairly weak number 6. I think Kev McLaughlin has been screwed over. He wasnt given a chance by Kidney at all in the pre seasons.

 

[monkeypigeon]

So hes a better 4 then O'Callaghan and a better 6 then McLaughline and McCarthy. Jees hes some player.


You are actually serious there yeah? Tell you what, go look at any of the modern international number 6, you know, the players Ryan is meant to compete with, players like O'Brien, Kaino, Elsom (even when playing ****), Burger, Lydiate, Dusatoir, Haskell ........... or yes McLaughlin. Some of these guys are pretty average, but they would still **** all over Ryan. He just doesnt have the game for a modern 6. He is not mobile enough, regardless of how many times you tell yourself.

Oh and work rate is not a positive, its expected. This is international rugby we are talking about, not some park game.


Which areas is he better at? Being a **** number 6? A more mobile but underpowered number 4? Hes not a front jumper, offers no leadership on the pitch, hes an average lifter, underpowered for the scrum, cant call a ****in call a linout. Where is he superior to Cullen? Hes a faster runner?

He doesn't call the starstarstarstarin' lineout because he's clearly not in charge of making such calls. That's O'Connoll or Cullen's job. Why not criticise his ability to throw the ball in to the lineout too. He's hardly been spectacular at that.

I don't disagree with your points generally but do think you're being overly harsh on Ryan and hyping McLoughlin, who's had about the same number of standout performances as Ryan in the last year and hasn't shone since 2 years ago when he looked good in a pack always on the front foot.

To be honest, going on the warm ups, I'd take McCarthy over the two of them. But it's much of a muchness seeing as the three of them are fabulously average. - Jennings should have gone.

Or maybe Buckley's going to cover 7?

 

[raziel_eire]

Of all the choices made, Ryan is the one I am having the hardest time getting to grips with.

I'd have had McCarthy on the plane ahead of Ryan based on performances in the warm-up games which were fairly equal... can't say I'd take McLaughlin but that's based purely off him not getting enough of a chance in the warm-ups.

Ryan has had chances before now and I can't say I've seen him step up and take them let alone the chances he was given during the warm-ups. McCarthy played atleast as well as him in only his 1st & 2nd games and is the physically more imposing player, better suited to the positions that Ryan has been taken to cover.

 

[coonor]

One area in which Ryan is superior to McLaughlin is defence. McLauglin has missed numerous tackles in the end of the previous season and many of them are very important tackles that had to be made. A few the stand out are the miss tackle on Clerc against Toulouse that lead to BOD be sent off, The miss tackle on Wilson in the Final which meant that Heaslip had to back track a good thirty metres to make a brilliant tackle and a miss tackle on Foden also in the final following a box kick. Now I am not saying that Ryan is brilliant in defence but I also think he is superior in the lineout compared to McLaughlin. I think Ryan has played some good games during the end of the season and has been solid in the warm up matches. Macca really surprised me and I was impressed by his performance against Scotland however I have not seen him enough especially at high level to really judge him.

 

[munstermuffin]

@ Snoop - I agree with you about Hagan not being in the squad but as I was saying I'm only asking with regards who was in squad. And as for your question about Keatley I didn't understand it until he came here to Munster in summer and seen his form in training and being at a higher level I think he has a bit of faith in himself now and well know's realistically he can be playing for something at business end of season.

@ Log - What has winning HEC cups etc got to do with Ireland. As Snoop said Hayes was a B&I Lion does that mean we should be screaming for him to replace Mike Ross? I don't think so. And well Ryan outplayed Kevin McLaughlin twice last season and well for anyone that was at Ireland vs Connacht last season McLaughlin would struggle to make an AIL team with that performance. And fact is McLaughlin will be lucky to make a Leinster 23 this season based his early form. If reports are to be believed then Ryan has been head and shoulders over McCarthy and McLaughlin in trainings and well it seems Kidney was watching these closely too as McFadden and Murray haven't exactly been used alot in games and earned selection.

And people have to remember Ryan is selected as a 2nd row that can be used as a 6 in a case of emergency. McCarthy in my opinion had a fair chance, as did McLaughlin, between games, training games and trainings and well didn't take the chance.
Fair play to Donnacha Ryan for fighting his way through and earning his spot.

And well Kidney's selection of Buckley over Hayes is simply because some lunatic (as if thing weren't bad with 1 side) has told Kidney Buckley can play both sides of scrum.

 

[OnTheBall]

I think McLaughlin and Ryan are both average enough players, but I'm not too bothered about Ryan's selection. He won't be up against any top second rows or flankers in all probability. He'd be fourth choice lock and fourth (?) choice 6 amongst the squad anyways.
I agree that McLaughlin didn't have a stellar season, but he really wasn't given a fair crack of the whip in these games.
As for McCarthy, he played at the very least as well as Ryan in these games, if not better. I'm not too upset though, as a Connacht fan. I think we need him more than Ireland

As for Buckley, surely the rationale is that he won't be playing anyone other than the minnows, so his scrummaging is unlikely to be badly exposed, while hoping he puts himself about the park well? I really hope the other three props stay fit though. What we don't want is Buckley coming off the bench against a major nation, or worse- starting.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think that is the main point that simply it is unlikely Donnacha Ryan will see gametime against any big team and well same goes for Buckley and few others like Paddy Wallace.

 

[raziel_eire]

As for McCarthy, he played at the very least as well as Ryan in these games, if not better. I'm not too upset though, as a Connacht fan. I think we need him more than Ireland

Agree with both points, Connacht just don't have the resources to be without the better players even if it is only for Pro12 games. Would have been good to have a Connacht representative in the Ireland squad tho, just to keep reminding the IRFU that there are 4 provinces.

And people have to remember Ryan is selected as a 2nd row that can be used as a 6 in a case of emergency. McCarthy in my opinion had a fair chance, as did McLaughlin, between games, training games and trainings and well didn't take the chance.
Fair play to Donnacha Ryan for fighting his way through and earning his spot.

McCarthy is a very viable option in the same positions, more so then McLaughlin - and Kevin did not get as fair a chance as the others (be honest now).
Apart from these reports from within training sessions though, I don't think its been visible or can be said that Ryan outperformed McCarthy in the actual test game time they each received, so I find it very hard to say "fair play, he earned his spot". Ryan's been around the Ireland setup since what, 2008 or so? And still question marks remain about what he brings. McCarthy gets his chance this year at the international setup and in 6-8months at the very least performs aswell as Ryan in the test environment (I think he was better but that's an opinion).

From Paddy Wallace as the prime example, we know there is more to Kidney's selection in some positions then "form" alone, be that in training, training games or the warm-up tests etc, and I can't help but feel that the Munster familiarity (both from Kidney's days with him and from Ryan's experience of playing with other Munster members of the pack) has played a major part in Donnacha getting the nod.

Anyways, we're damned if my thoughts are gonna change anything, Ryan is going and that's the bottom line.


On a side note, anyone had a thought about what next years 6N squad will look like, I'd expect a few of our selection questions will be null & void come February time with the likes of Hagan, Keatley, Jones, Murray all getting in the full squad proper without any question marks (some kind of form permitting of course). Or will Kidney hold off the new blood for another year?

 

[5cotty]

I'd be all right with ryan getting a game in the pool stages but i would be worried if were forced into a position to play him against australia or in the knockout stages where he would be competing against class operators like pocock and brussouw. Fourth choice second row. Sixth choice back row.
I can see Wallace getting more game time as he is the third choice 10 and will most likely be on the bench at some point. More importantly he is the second choice 12 and thanks to Darcy's bad form he is probably pushing for a starting place.

 

[munstermuffin]

Agree with both points, Connacht just don't have the resources to be without the better players even if it is only for Pro12 games. Would have been good to have a Connacht representative in the Ireland squad tho, just to keep reminding the IRFU that there are 4 provinces.



McCarthy is a very viable option in the same positions, more so then McLaughlin - and Kevin did not get as fair a chance as the others (be honest now).
Apart from these reports from within training sessions though, I don't think its been visible or can be said that Ryan outperformed McCarthy in the actual test game time they each received, so I find it very hard to say "fair play, he earned his spot". Ryan's been around the Ireland setup since what, 2008 or so? And still question marks remain about what he brings. McCarthy gets his chance this year at the international setup and in 6-8months at the very least performs aswell as Ryan in the test environment (I think he was better but that's an opinion).

From Paddy Wallace as the prime example, we know there is more to Kidney's selection in some positions then "form" alone, be that in training, training games or the warm-up tests etc, and I can't help but feel that the Munster familiarity (both from Kidney's days with him and from Ryan's experience of playing with other Munster members of the pack) has played a major part in Donnacha getting the nod.

Anyways, we're damned if my thoughts are gonna change anything, Ryan is going and that's the bottom line.


On a side note, anyone had a thought about what next years 6N squad will look like, I'd expect a few of our selection questions will be null & void come February time with the likes of Hagan, Keatley, Jones, Murray all getting in the full squad proper without any question marks (some kind of form permitting of course). Or will Kidney hold off the new blood for another year?

I understand that point but will put it another way:
In gametime McLaughlin was a disaster and this was maximised by him been worst player on a pitch playing for a team with guys fighting for a World Cup place on a national team against a team 5/6 weeks behind and about 3 levels below in standard. So that is him eliminated immediately.

On McCarthy vs Ryan you say Ryan benefited from being around the squad since 2008 well I'll ask the flip side and say at 30 if McCarthy is that good why hasn't he been involved up until now ??? Ryan earned his stripes and well got his 1st cap against Argentina after destroying a few 2nd string All Blacks in Thomond Park in 08. That is fact and well had what I would say by a large distance the strongest finish of the season of the 3. And while I agree there wasn't much between McCarthy and Ryan in games when you look at larger picture I can see 100% why Ryan was picked.

 

[lucky number 7]

On the plus side no O'Leary with the lovely Murray brought in.

Big negative for me is the omission of Luke Fitzgerald who defensively has not really put a foot wrong and in my opinion is in far better form than Earls.