Ireland: 2014 Six Nations

[munstermuffin]

You know it was only a few years ago (maybe 7 so not that long ago) when trimble was considered O'Driscoll replacement, anyone reckon Schmidt would see it that way and stick trimble on the bench to cover 13 opposed to mcfadden to cover twelve

Trimble isn't a 13 no more than D'Arcy once played at 15. Cave would be 12 although Marshall covers 12 Henshaw 13. Regards Bench Madigan will be ahead of Jackson as Schmidt will presume he can cover 12 or with Sexton going to 12 and him at 10. McFadden then as ...............

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not being a Munster bias here but if that's the style he wants Johne Murphy is the form winger in Ireland for that style and has being on fire this season. Not saying Johne should be picked but if that is what Schmidt is looking for why not reward form.
How can McFadden be match fit? He also has no form so again where is logic in picking him.
As I said a lot of tight calls went Leinsters way and some admittedly can be easily argued for or against but this is a disgrace and as I said it sends a poor message to the others.

It's hardly a disgrace, McFadden is a proven international standard player more so than Zebo, he's got one of Ireland's best try scoring records for an outside back after Tommy Bowe with 8 in 21 games and doesn't have the defensive issues that both Gilroy and Zebo do. Am I saying he's a better player? No. Am I saying it's the right call? Not really but it's not wrong and it is most certainly not a disgrace! McFadden is the player better suited to coming off the bench, he covers two positions and he's a very capable place kicker if needed however unlikely that may be. If it was my choice I'd have had Fitzy and Zebo starting with McFadden 23 because Zebo has looked good in the last few weeks in his cameos but Schmidt might not be convinced with the data he has from training. The real pity is that Earls and Bowe are injured because if not Zebo and McFadden wouldn't be in the 23!

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

It's hardly a disgrace, McFadden is a proven international standard player more so than Zebo, he's got one of Ireland's best try scoring records for an outside back after Tommy Bowe with 8 in 21 games and doesn't have the defensive issues that both Gilroy and Zebo do. Am I saying he's a better player? No. Am I saying it's the right call? Not really but it's not wrong and it is most certainly not a disgrace! McFadden is the player better suited to coming off the bench, he covers two positions and he's a very capable place kicker if needed however unlikely that may be. If it was my choice I'd have had Fitzy and Zebo starting with McFadden 23 because Zebo has looked good in the last few weeks in his cameos but Schmidt might not be convinced with the data he has from training. The real pity is that Earls and Bowe are injured because if not Zebo and McFadden wouldn't be in the 23!

I agree with McFadden over Gilroy in the squad, but Gilroy has defensive issues? Where did you get that from? Last 6 nations he proved how solid he was in defense, so I don't know what you're basing that on since he's also been solid for Ulster.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's hardly a disgrace, McFadden is a proven international standard player more so than Zebo, he's got one of Ireland's best try scoring records for an outside back after Tommy Bowe with 8 in 21 games and doesn't have the defensive issues that both Gilroy and Zebo do. Am I saying he's a better player? No. Am I saying it's the right call? Not really but it's not wrong and it is most certainly not a disgrace! McFadden is the player better suited to coming off the bench, he covers two positions and he's a very capable place kicker if needed however unlikely that may be. If it was my choice I'd have had Fitzy and Zebo starting with McFadden 23 because Zebo has looked good in the last few weeks in his cameos but Schmidt might not be convinced with the data he has from training. The real pity is that Earls and Bowe are injured because if not Zebo and McFadden wouldn't be in the 23!

Been honest Earls and few others have better record. Also statistically Zebo has better tries per game. 2 in 6. Also McFadden got 3 vs Canada in 1 game, and Samoa and Russia to name few so hardly a sharp shooter. Add in he's nowhere near a proven international. Not saying Zebo is or anything.
It's a disgrace that all players weren't treated fairly.
What can you honestly say is the reason McFadden has got in?
How can Zebo have been judged by Schmidt having not being invited to camp over the Xmas despite being fit to attend and participate in majority and only training 1 day with Schmidts squad last week.
Even in this squad with injuries McFadden doesn't deserve to be in it unless he was in highest part of form. He was slow returning for kicks over head, had sloppy kicks and was as I said poor to average at best. For me that is a disgrace yet no one can offer what he brings that is so good he had to be waltzed straight in?

 

[Feicarsinn]

I agree with McFadden over Gilroy in the squad, but Gilroy has defensive issues? Where did you get that from? Last 6 nations he proved how solid he was in defense, so I don't know what you're basing that on since he's also been solid for Ulster.

Gilroy's problem recently is that he has been no more than solid in any area of his game recently. If he was playing to the standard he was 12 months ago then we probably wouldn't be having this debate, but he hasn't looked an international winger this season in my eyes. That said, obviously McFadden hasn't either, but as Cmac mentioned Ferg does bring a bit more versatility and a more than solid kicking game should Paddy Jackson have a mare coming off the bench regards kicking (not an unimaginable scenario.)

Anyway, trying to get away from all the hyperbole. Good to see O'Donnell, Murphy and Copeland come in. Same goes for Henderson. I'd expect the latter to start off the bench as second row cover, while the back row, starting and the bench spot, are still up for grabs. Nice to see Martin Moore in there; he's the form tight head in the country at the moment and has fully earned it, hopefully we'll now be able to put out two tight heads capable of surviving on the international stage (been a while, hasn't it?)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I agree with McFadden over Gilroy in the squad, but Gilroy has defensive issues? Where did you get that from? Last 6 nations he proved how solid he was in defense, so I don't know what you're basing that on since he's also been solid for Ulster.

Well not so much issues as just not as good as McFadden I suppose, he gets caught out every now and then but that's it to be fair. On form he's a better player than McFadden as well but McFadden is one of the most consistent players in Ireland.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Schmidt out

 

[munstermuffin]

Gilroy's problem recently is that he has been no more than solid in any area of his game recently. If he was playing to the standard he was 12 months ago then we probably wouldn't be having this debate, but he hasn't looked an international winger this season in my eyes. That said, obviously McFadden hasn't either, but as Cmac mentioned Ferg does bring a bit more versatility and a more than solid kicking game should Paddy Jackson have a mare coming off the bench regards kicking (not an unimaginable scenario.)

Anyway, trying to get away from all the hyperbole. Good to see O'Donnell, Murphy and Copeland come in. Same goes for Henderson. I'd expect the latter to start off the bench as second row cover, while the back row, starting and the bench spot, are still up for grabs. Nice to see Martin Moore in there; he's the form tight head in the country at the moment and has fully earned it, hopefully we'll now be able to put out two tight heads capable of surviving on the international stage (been a while, hasn't it?)

We can agree on that back row deserve their chance. But can't see Henderson on bench unless McCarthy is injured from boot to face against Ospreys. Joe seemed to have his mind made up that his 3 locks are Toner POC and MMcC. 20 jersey is open but think it'll be a member of last weekends back row gets that.
Moore I think still has the jury out but hopefully he can do well.

On McFadden again - What versatility does he bring that Henshaw doesn't?
And regards kicking would we really not let Jackson kick and give it to a guy who hasn't scored with a kick from Ireland in his career. Conor Murray is also a goal kicker so again I've yet to see how McFadden has got in there other than it being a bias decision. I'd trust Zebo more than McFadden at 15, Marshall at 12 and Henshaw/Cave at 13 so where is he required for versatility. In a bench, Madigan or Jackson can cover 10 with Sexton going to 12. Then have Henshaw if you want versatility, Zebo with Fitz as option of 13, Trimble available
Regardless I think Madigan will be on bench.

Snoop I'm not calling for him to be out just thought he'd be better than provincial crap. Kidney had bias fair enough but as a country we don't seem to be learning and are going down same roads and it just heaps more pressure on

 

[Feicarsinn]

Schmidt out

Lost the dressing room I hear.

 

[IRISH RUGBY MAN]

Thoughts:

-McFadden is a bad call as he was poor on Saturday. Zebo creates more and should be in buy it was a 50:50 call and he went with what he knew. I would pick Henshaw at 23.
- Rhys Ruddock and O'Donnell will fight it out for 20 shirt. Based on Saturdays match I would start with Ruddock.
- Henderson deserves a shot at the 4 jersey but will not get it. Probably not the right time but I have never seen him go backwards in contact and we will need big carries with O'Brien out.
- Martin Moore is a great call, hope he gets a start somewhere.
- Well done Schmidt for bold back row calls, picked on form which is good to see,

no shocks, bar McFaddenn and its a good squad. Can't wait for Sunday now

 

[thecyberpunk_]

Hon the Smidth regime:

Healy
Best
Ross
O'Connell
Toner
O Mahoney
Henry
Heaslip

Murray
Sexton
Fitzgerald
Darcy ( Solid in defence, I however cannot wait untill he hangs up the international boots)
BOD
D Kearney
R Kearney

Cronin
Moore
Kilcoyne
Mccarthy
Tommy O Donnell / Jordi Murphy.
Eoin Redden
Ian Madigan
Marshall
Zebo


Shame for SOB/EARLS/FERRIS/


Future prediction
''Ronan O'Gara re picks up his boots after signing a deal with Racing Metro for the remainder of the season as the Assistant player manger as Jonathon Sexton leaves the Parisiain club due to another falling out with management''

 

[munstermuffin]

Hon the Smidth regime:

Healy
Best
Ross
O'Connell
Toner
O Mahoney
Henry
Heaslip

Murray
Sexton
Fitzgerald
Darcy ( Solid in defence, I however cannot wait untill he hangs up the international boots)
BOD
D Kearney
R Kearney

Cronin
Moore
Kilcoyne
Mccarthy
Tommy O Donnell / Jordi Murphy.
Eoin Redden
Ian Madigan
Marshall
Zebo


Shame for SOB/EARLS/FERRIS/


Future prediction
''Ronan O'Gara re picks up his boots after signing a deal with Racing Metro for the remainder of the season as the Assistant player manger as Jonathon Sexton leaves the Parisiain club due to another falling out with management''

You do know team you've picked has too many subs and players not in squad??

Anyways Feic in a way its not too bad as well at least our squad will be fresh for HEC QF and lads I hope have major chip on their shoulder come End of March and game vs Leinster in Aviva as that kicks of most important week.
And well Ulster lads I sincerely hope do get more duties than water bottle and tackle bag duty.
They deserve it especially Tuohy in my eyes.

And this McFadden thing has nothing to do with Zebo left out. It's simply asking why does Schmidt have 1 rule for some and a different rule for others?
And as Leinster fans joke about it I think that answers it in itself that they know it a truthful statement.

Regards back row every possible back rower is actually in squad that had some chance of spot.

 

[Conal]

Shame for SOB/EARLS/FERRIS/

and bowe

shows how many wingers we have at the moment that many of us have not mentioned bowe

 

[munstermuffin]

and bowe

shows how many wingers we have at the moment that many of us have not mentioned bowe

I think it's already been said somewhere Bowe will join squad after Wales game. And probably start against England

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Snoop I'm not calling for him to be out just thought he'd be better than provincial crap. Kidney had bias fair enough but as a country we don't seem to be learning and are going down same roads and it just heaps more pressure on

Yet it's you who brings up which provinces players are from!

I want the Ireland coach to pick the best players regardless of province. That's what this coach is doing. If he favoured his former province, why hasn't he selected Richardt Strauss, Kevin McLaughlin, Isaac Boss or Shane Jennings? None of Jordi Murphy, Martin Moore nor Rhys Ruddock were Leinster regulars in his time there. A coach with Joe Schmidt's track record deserves the benefit of the doubt while he's still getting used to the role.

 

[Conal]

I think it's already been said somewhere Bowe will join squad after Wales game. And probably start against England

really? that must just rub salt in the wound for zebo and possibly gilroy

as well if match fitness was the massive concern ...

 

[thecyberpunk_]

You do know team you've picked has too many subs and players not in squad??

Anyways Feic in a way its not too bad as well at least our squad will be fresh for HEC QF and lads I hope have major chip on their shoulder come End of March and game vs Leinster in Aviva as that kicks of most important week.
And well Ulster lads I sincerely hope do get more duties than water bottle and tackle bag duty.
They deserve it especially Tuohy in my eyes.

And this McFadden thing has nothing to do with Zebo left out. It's simply asking why does Schmidt have 1 rule for some and a different rule for others?
And as Leinster fans joke about it I think that answers it in itself that they know it a truthful statement.

Regards back row every possible back rower is actually in squad that had some chance of spot.

To many players? what are you talking about i listed 23 players there cant decide on O donnell or whack jordi murphy out there why not sure hes been immense for Leinster he needs a shot.

Smidth will do great things to this team, infectious coach

 

[Feicarsinn]

You do know team you've picked has too many subs and players not in squad??

Anyways Feic in a way its not too bad as well at least our squad will be fresh for HEC QF and lads I hope have major chip on their shoulder come End of March and game vs Leinster in Aviva as that kicks of most important week.
And well Ulster lads I sincerely hope do get more duties than water bottle and tackle bag duty.
They deserve it especially Tuohy in my eyes.

And this McFadden thing has nothing to do with Zebo left out. It's simply asking why does Schmidt have 1 rule for some and a different rule for others?
And as Leinster fans joke about it I think that answers it in itself that they know it a truthful statement.

Regards back row every possible back rower is actually in squad that had some chance of spot.

Wow. To have the gall to accuse anyone of provincial bias and them come out with that. Especially considering you're the one who went through the squad and totted up who plays for which province and then judged the squad based on that. Interesting attitude. Zebo didn't get in? Oh, all of Munster must get up in arms. You're more worried about your province not getting a fair deal than if the side does well.

Looking through the squad, the coach got the vast majority of the decisions right. Yep, there are lots of Leinster players, but that's just a mark of where Irish rugby is. Leinster have more Irish players playing in key roles than any of the other provinces. Are there any players out of the 17 who don't deserve to be there? Not really. You could argue McFadden, but as has been argued probably more eloquently than I could he brings a different skill set to the side than Zebo, one that perhaps Schmidt prefers. Schmidt's wingers have rarely played the role of poachers or speedsters that comes more naturally to Zebo and are typically more involved with the play that he gets. Not a criticism of Zebo, just a note on style. But of course it's easier to jump up and down and scream "BIAS BIAS BIAS."

As Snoop as said, there are a lot of guys from Leinster in the squad who didn't feature much under Schmidt. There are also some of his previous favourites left out. That doesn't indicate a strong bias from the coach. No credit to Schmidt for bringing in Robin Copeland and Tommy O'Donnell I note if we're talking about guys coming into the squad.

 

[big ginger 8]

We can agree on that back row deserve their chance. But can't see Henderson on bench unless McCarthy is injured from boot to face against Ospreys. Joe seemed to have his mind made up that his 3 locks are Toner POC and MMcC. 20 jersey is open but think it'll be a member of last weekends back row gets that.
Moore I think still has the jury out but hopefully he can do well.

On McFadden again - What versatility does he bring that Henshaw doesn't?
And regards kicking would we really not let Jackson kick and give it to a guy who hasn't scored with a kick from Ireland in his career. Conor Murray is also a goal kicker so again I've yet to see how McFadden has got in there other than it being a bias decision. I'd trust Zebo more than McFadden at 15, Marshall at 12 and Henshaw/Cave at 13 so where is he required for versatility. In a bench, Madigan or Jackson can cover 10 with Sexton going to 12. Then have Henshaw if you want versatility, Zebo with Fitz as option of 13, Trimble available
Regardless I think Madigan will be on bench.

Snoop I'm not calling for him to be out just thought he'd be better than provincial crap. Kidney had bias fair enough but as a country we don't seem to be learning and are going down same roads and it just heaps more pressure on

I know I shouldn't but I have to do this.

Munstermuffin regale with stories of all the times Henshaw has played wing. I can't remember him ever playing wing in my life certainly in any highstakes game. It's the same with 12 so that's versatility he brings that Henshaw doesn't.

Feic didn't say to let McFadden kick over Jackson but if Jackson's kicking went to ****. True McFadden hasn't taken an kick at international level but he has 276 points off the tee for Leinster. Compared to Murray who has 0 kicks at goal in professional rugby despite kicking at u20s level. Yeah I agree Marshall and Cave cover 12 and 13 better but they're ****e bench options and won't be on the bench. Also why on earth would you move are best 10 and key playmaker to 12.

What McFadden also has in his favour is that while Zebo was on poor form before getting injured McFadden was tearing it up and the only Irish player to look good vs Australia. His injury was also to his hand, which has meant he's still been running and keeping up his fitness. His showing on Saturday was average but it was about getting match sharpness back up. Zebo meanwhile injured his foot meaning he wasn't running for a number of weeks and he did look noticeably heavier. However it seems being dropped did give him a kick up the ass and he had a very good cameo against what was honestly a terrible Edinburgh team. Another point for consideration is that Zebo doesn't play right wing. Luke Fitzgerald has the 11 shirt and all the other winger prefer playing 14.

To say what is at worst a 50:50 call is "provincial crap" is complete and utter bull****. If you don't remember Kidney was far worse. A poor DO'C, an old Hayes, Buckley, O'Leay, RO'G and others were stuck with for far too long instead of one tiny call for which will probably end up being a bench spot is not even in the same stratosphere.

For the record I'd have Zebo over Jones.

 

[profitius]

Regarding Zebo and McFadden. Anyone see their last games for Ireland. One gave 100 percent while the other was avoiding challenges while waiting for a Lions callup. I'm delighted Zebo is dropped because he or nobody else deserves to waltz into the team after his last standard of a performance.

I'll go into more detail later with my thoughts on the squad.