IRB Junior World Championship

[Boggle]

SA vs Aus coming up in a few minutes, hoping it's a good game.

 

[SelimNiai]

43- 10 final score. Wales were juist completely outclassed :/ who scored the Welsh try btw? I missed it. From what I saw, Kristian Phillips and Dan Fish's kicking was superb! They'd find great distance in their touch finders every time they kicked it! Pity they weren't as promenant in open play as they usually are. It is pretty hard when your pack is getting out-muscled by their opponents. Ah well, 5th place play offs here we come...

It was the hooker, who played very well to me. NZ were just too good. To quote Daft Punk they were harder, better, faster, stronger than us. Their 10 reminded me a lot of Stephen Larkham in many ways, classy player.

 

[Jake Heke]

It was the hooker, who played very well to me. NZ were just too good. To quote Daft Punk they were harder, better, faster, stronger than us. Their 10 reminded me a lot of Stephen Larkham in many ways, classy player.

My mate played in the same college team CBHS as the first him, he is a beast for his size.

He can kick a mile too.

 

[Thingimubob]

Yeah his kicking was huge! His 60m kick just missed, had plenty of legs on it too! Cna see NZ winning yet another u20s ***le, how do you keep producing these guys?! What exactly do New Zealand do differently to lets say Wales (similar overall population) or England (much larger population!), to keep producing these class players! It's obvious that something in the grass-roots development of their youngsters is just far better than most other countries. You could argue that, for example, England have massive competition from other sports, mainly Football and Rugby League, but still there's loads of clubs in England and plenty of interest in Rugby Union! There is similar competition in Wales, but with only 2 big football clubs (Cardiff and Swansea City) who aren't even in the top flight of football, a terrible national football side, and only one top flight Rugby League club, Union is by far the strongest sport in Wales. I've also heard Wales described as one of the only nations that match New Zealand when it comes to passion for the game. So what on earth are we doing differently to them when it comes to developing world class players?!

 

[SelimNiai]

Yeah his kicking was huge! His 60m kick just missed, had plenty of legs on it too! Cna see NZ winning yet another u20s ***le, how do you keep producing these guys?! What exactly do New Zealand do differently to lets say Wales (similar overall population) or England (much larger population!), to keep producing these class players! It's obvious that something in the grass-roots development of their youngsters is just far better than most other countries. You could argue that, for example, England have massive competition from other sports, mainly Football and Rugby League, but still there's loads of clubs in England and plenty of interest in Rugby Union! There is similar competition in Wales, but with only 2 big football clubs (Cardiff and Swansea City) who aren't even in the top flight of football, a terrible national football side, and only one top flight Rugby League club, Union is by far the strongest sport in Wales. I've also heard Wales described as one of the only nations that match New Zealand when it comes to passion for the game. So what on earth are we doing differently to them when it comes to developing world class players?!

Here's my theory;

The whole sheep farming thing is a front. What is actually going on is the NZRFU is rounding up every 10 year old boy and injecting them with some DNA from the Invincibles and harvesting them in gurt big factories until they begin to manifest the capabilities needed to destroy every rugby playing nation. However the doctors there are worried, it seems every 4 years their ablilites dissapear for a month or two before coming back as strong as ever. It's a ruthless system, those who fail to manifest the abilities are sent to play either cricket, football or in extreme cases sent to Papa New Guinea to play Rugby League.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Argentina beat Ireland by 24-21.

Even allowing for the fact that this competition is more important for player development than for winning games, Ireland have learned jack ****. There isn't one player who's stood out positively so far in open play. The only positive is that the scrum has looked strong. The talent in the team is a rampaging backrow and counter attacking backs yet all Ireland did was bosh it up the middle and put boot to ball. Allen Clarke should hang his head in shame for limiting such a talented bunch of players. It's the 2nd year in a row that he's made a balls of the World Cup.

 

[coonor]

Ireland simply haven't been up for this competition and in every game they really started to play good attacking rugby in the last 10 mins. still a good year for the U-20.

 

[Jake Heke]

Here's my theory;

The whole sheep farming thing is a front. What is actually going on is the NZRFU is rounding up every 10 year old boy and injecting them with some DNA from the Invincibles and harvesting them in gurt big factories until they begin to manifest the capabilities needed to destroy every rugby playing nation. However the doctors there are worried, it seems every 4 years their ablilites dissapear for a month or two before coming back as strong as ever. It's a ruthless system, those who fail to manifest the abilities are sent to play either cricket, football or in extreme cases sent to Papa New Guinea to play Rugby League.

LOL^ no comment.

Yeah his kicking was huge! His 60m kick just missed, had plenty of legs on it too! Cna see NZ winning yet another u20s ***le, how do you keep producing these guys?! What exactly do New Zealand do differently to lets say Wales (similar overall population) or England (much larger population!), to keep producing these class players! It's obvious that something in the grass-roots development of their youngsters is just far better than most other countries. You could argue that, for example, England have massive competition from other sports, mainly Football and Rugby League, but still there's loads of clubs in England and plenty of interest in Rugby Union! There is similar competition in Wales, but with only 2 big football clubs (Cardiff and Swansea City) who aren't even in the top flight of football, a terrible national football side, and only one top flight Rugby League club, Union is by far the strongest sport in Wales. I've also heard Wales described as one of the only nations that match New Zealand when it comes to passion for the game. So what on earth are we doing differently to them when it comes to developing world class players?!

Seriously though, IMO it has more to do with the quality of competition within our country and our scouts/coaches. From age 10 through to college and upwards the competition in rugby is immense, specially in the Super 8 (high school) competition. The breakthrough players from that competition usually get thrown into mainstream rugby really young, and develop quite quickly from there.

 

[Darwin]

Thoroughly enjoyed the NZ game - the forwards dominated for the first 30 odd mins, allowing a big lead to be built. I was very impressed by the ball running of Moli (the NZ lock) - he keep on driving forward even with a couple of defenders hanging off him.

Kerr-Barlow looks very classy at times, but did try to do much himself on more an one occasion, and threw a few intercept passes. He's certainly one for the future though. Tyler Bleyendaal was outstanding, particularly with his running game, which I (erroneously) suggested he lacked! He looked every bit like a young Dan Carter, combining a exceptional tactical game with an equally brillant running game.

Ngatai was solid - he's a huge guy, and is reported to be a devastating runner, but he didn't really get any chances to show this. I wonder whether they may consider shifting him to fullback in the next game (where he is equally comfortable), so that he gets a chance to have a run with a bit of space.

The only possible worrying thing for NZ was Savea leaving the field halfway through the first-half with an injury. Not sure how bad the injury is, but they would hate to lose him, given that he's already scored 6 tries this tournament in only 100 minutes of rugby!

 

[ranger]

Yeah his kicking was huge! His 60m kick just missed, had plenty of legs on it too! Cna see NZ winning yet another u20s ***le, how do you keep producing these guys?! What exactly do New Zealand do differently to lets say Wales (similar overall population) or England (much larger population!), to keep producing these class players! It's obvious that something in the grass-roots development of their youngsters is just far better than most other countries. You could argue that, for example, England have massive competition from other sports, mainly Football and Rugby League, but still there's loads of clubs in England and plenty of interest in Rugby Union! There is similar competition in Wales, but with only 2 big football clubs (Cardiff and Swansea City) who aren't even in the top flight of football, a terrible national football side, and only one top flight Rugby League club, Union is by far the strongest sport in Wales. I've also heard Wales described as one of the only nations that match New Zealand when it comes to passion for the game. So what on earth are we doing differently to them when it comes to developing world class players?!

Ive already said that i think NZ concentrates on Brain and NH seem to bring brawn to the party everytime.

 

[Peat]

Bit lazy that Ranger, seem to recall the Baby Blacks looking a lot bigger than the Mini Micks last year and there's plenty of intelligent players coming south from the NH... more over, it doesn't account for why you've got such a hold and Australia and South Africa don't.

New Zealand concentrate on building complete rugby players. Brawn and brain and everything else. The technique tends to be a hell of a lot better than ours. I think we're making big strides to try and catch up there in England but we don't casually handle a rugby ball at such a young age the same way and its hard to overcome that.

Two years running, England U-20s have casually cleaned up and then run smack into a brick wall with the Baby Blacks. That includes the other SH teams. We're producing a good quality of player over here, even if they're being completely mismanaged at a more senior level... and it's still not as good. Hey ho.

Also, after a little look at the IRB site... England and NZ's front rows are about the same size, our loose five forwards a little heavier, NZ's backs generally heavier (particularly in the centres). As I said, complete players.

 

[ranger]

Bit lazy that Ranger, seem to recall the Baby Blacks looking a lot bigger than the Mini Micks last year and there's plenty of intelligent players coming south from the NH... more over, it doesn't account for why you've got such a hold and Australia and South Africa don't.

New Zealand concentrate on building complete rugby players. Brawn and brain and everything else. The technique tends to be a hell of a lot better than ours. I think we're making big strides to try and catch up there in England but we don't casually handle a rugby ball at such a young age the same way and its hard to overcome that.

Two years running, England U-20s have casually cleaned up and then run smack into a brick wall with the Baby Blacks. That includes the other SH teams. We're producing a good quality of player over here, even if they're being completely mismanaged at a more senior level... and it's still not as good. Hey ho.

Also, after a little look at the IRB site... England and NZ's front rows are about the same size, our loose five forwards a little heavier, NZ's backs generally heavier (particularly in the centres). As I said, complete players.

The key difference seems to be NZ academies look for skill and a rugby brain first and foremost, then try and make them bigger while still keeping the main focus on skill. Where as the NH seem to select athletes and try and mould them into rugby players, with the focus on gymwork. Its not necessarily about size so i take that back, but there seems to be a focus on raw, tangible attributes as opposed to skill, things like how much a kid can lift or how fast they can run in a straight line.

The reason i say this is that my dad does a bit of coaching here and there, a few years ago he went to the U.K on a trip around different academies and what not to see how they do business and that's where the focus seemed to be.
They would try and impress the visiting NZ coaching by saying "Look how much this kid can benchpress, and hes only 17!!" or "We have got a kid here who is 15 and can run sub 12 seconds!". Without caring too much about their scrummaging technique or ability to spot a gap and other less tangible skills.

Before i get yelled at i want to say that i'm 100% sure that they are capable of producing skilled players, there are probably loads of Conrad Smiths that dont get a look in over there because they arent super fast or super strong.
I just think that England especially have things backwards, dont get an athlete and teach them how to play. Get a natural rugby player and make them bigger and faster.

 

[William18]

Yeah his kicking was huge! His 60m kick just missed, had plenty of legs on it too! Cna see NZ winning yet another u20s ***le, how do you keep producing these guys?! What exactly do New Zealand do differently to lets say Wales (similar overall population) or England (much larger population!), to keep producing these class players! It's obvious that something in the grass-roots development of their youngsters is just far better than most other countries. You could argue that, for example, England have massive competition from other sports, mainly Football and Rugby League, but still there's loads of clubs in England and plenty of interest in Rugby Union! There is similar competition in Wales, but with only 2 big football clubs (Cardiff and Swansea City) who aren't even in the top flight of football, a terrible national football side, and only one top flight Rugby League club, Union is by far the strongest sport in Wales. I've also heard Wales described as one of the only nations that match New Zealand when it comes to passion for the game. So what on earth are we doing differently to them when it comes to developing world class players?!

I think we are a bigger country than Wales which does help. The fact that a lot of our rugby players have traditionally come from farms probably helps too. The Polynesian element helps to an extent but Polynesian players sometimes don't play well under pressure. It probably all comes down to a great history of success and the game is probably better coached/funded/resourced in New Zealand.

 

[Peat]

The key difference seems to be NZ academies look for skill and a rugby brain first and foremost, then try and make them bigger while still keeping the main focus on skill. Where as the NH seem to select athletes and try and mould them into rugby players, with the focus on gymwork. Its not necessarily about size so i take that back, but there seems to be a focus on raw, tangible attributes as opposed to skill, things like how much a kid can lift or how fast they can run in a straight line.

The reason i say this is that my dad does a bit of coaching here and there, a few years ago he went to the U.K on a trip around different academies and what not to see how they do business and that's where the focus seemed to be.
They would try and impress the visiting NZ coaching by saying "Look how much this kid can benchpress, and hes only 17!!" or "We have got a kid here who is 15 and can run sub 12 seconds!". Without caring too much about their scrummaging technique or ability to spot a gap and other less tangible skills.

Before i get yelled at i want to say that i'm 100% sure that they are capable of producing skilled players, there are probably loads of Conrad Smiths that dont get a look in over there because they arent super fast or super strong.
I just think that England especially have things backwards, dont get an athlete and teach them how to play. Get a natural rugby player and make them bigger and faster.

Yeah, this I've no argument with.

I think to a certain extent this is a development of overuse of statistics. It's hard to statistically verify decision making but easy to verify athletic potential... so we can concentrate on that. And part sheer wrongful headedness too mind. Look at the success of Brand Haskell... great athlete, one of the smallest rugby brains in the Northern Hempisphere. There needs to be a far bigger emphasis on technical skills and the top 4 inches over here.

It also helps to explain how despite the great amount of young players we're producing, we don't really have much at fly-half...

 

[dullonien]

Ive already said that i think NZ concentrates on Brain and NH seem to bring brawn to the party everytime.

This might be true when talking about England. But it was obvious that NZ were bigger and more physical than the Welsh boys yesterday. It was us who were attempting to rely on skill, but were simply not allowed due to the power of the NZ forwards.

Very few Welsh players managed to stand out in yesterday's game. The hooker Rhys Williams (who's had a couple of games for the Blues) was good, excellent lineout throwing, good carries and a try to boot. Lloyd Peers, the sedcond row, is an excellent prospect too, he matched the NZers for physicallity and won most of the Welsh lineout ball untill he was substituted. That prop Cymro mentioned, Rhodri Jones also looked good. Seemed to hold his side at the scrum, and had one rampaging run that led to the try. I thought Navidi was a bit disapointing to start with, bit did improve and was the only one taking it to the baby Blacks in defense.

In the backs, it was difficult to judje. They got very little front foot ball, but they did sctruggle to put phases together. Kristian Phillips covered well, but was dissapointing other than that. One howler of a catch seemed to cause him to loose all confience. Good kicking mind. Fish had zero opportunity to do what he's best at, run! Put in a couple of big touch finders though. Thought Scott Williams added much needed physicallity in the centre when he came on, but it was too late for him to show much. Jarvis was a little hit and miss. Good goal kicking for the most part, but got lost with ball in hand a bit. Finally thought Rhys Downes looked very good. Two passes he put in almost unlocked the NZ defense down the short side. Did well behind a retreating pack.

Overall, not too many of these players will advance into the senior team anytime soon, Phillips, Fish, Scott Williams, Rhys Downes, Navidi, Lloyd Peers, Rhodri Jones and Rhys Williams are the most likely.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Just to add about Rhodri Jones he is only 18 ... and has played 13 times for Llandovery this season. He has another two seasons left at this level which will be interesting to see how he goes.

 

[ranger]

Yeah, this I've no argument with.

I think to a certain extent this is a development of overuse of statistics. It's hard to statistically verify decision making but easy to verify athletic potential... so we can concentrate on that. And part sheer wrongful headedness too mind. Look at the success of Brand Haskell... great athlete, one of the smallest rugby brains in the Northern Hempisphere. There needs to be a far bigger emphasis on technical skills and the top 4 inches over here.

It also helps to explain how despite the great amount of young players we're producing, we don't really have much at fly-half...

Yeah I played against the current NZ first-five Tyler Bleyendaal at the national under 15 tournament years ago. I can tell you now that looking at him then, you wouldn't instantly assume that he would be the future NZ under 20 captain. He was a skinny, lanky, almost nerdy looking white boy. He did have undeniable natural talent though and ended up leading his team to win the tournament and picked up the tournament MVP ***le. Hes an example of a natural footballer that has been turned into an athlete.

What do you think the problem is with NH youth coaches and scouts?
Do you think it is a fear of being wrong in that you have said its easier to justify the selection of a physically imposing athlete? or are the coaches just not clued up enough to identify the skillful kids?
I think its an important area for England to focus on, they have enough money in their system but unless they identify their best young talent they will always be on the backfoot at senior level.

 

[dullonien]

Wales' problem will always be what happens in the schools. From my experience, every schoolboy here wants to play 10, or at least somehwere in the backs. No-one cares about the forwards, so children start refusing to play there. We had the perfect second row's playing centre, and wings etc. This is probably not true for some of the better schools in South Wales, but the coaching just isn't good enough at at that level (11-16).

Anywhere North of Llanelli is ignored by scouts. I don't think a scout ever came to watch games in Aberystwyth, not even the county team! We had some seriously good players aswell that could have easily developed into great ones. Finally is the attutude of the youth clubs and coaches at teams like Llanelli. My cousin (from North Wales) went to trialls at the club and made it into the youth setup. He was a big powerful prop (farmer's son). He didn't last long though, as soon as he destroyed some kid who was considered the next big thing, at scrum time, he was basically just told to leave and never come back. They decided to overlook a possibly better player because he wasn't from the Llanelli region and outshone their wonder prop. This for me sums up everything that's bad with rugby in Wales, and why we won't progress much further when we ignore 1/3 of our population! Especially when that third is the farmign region where kids tend to be strong and powerful, you know the forwards Wales are cryign out for!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Wales' problem will always be what happens in the schools. From my experience, every schoolboy here wants to play 10, or at least somehwere in the backs. No-one cares about the forwards, so children start refusing to play there. We had the perfect second row's playing centre, and wings etc. This is probably not true for some of the better schools in South Wales, but the coaching just isn't good enough at at that level (11-16).

Anywhere North of Llanelli is ignored by scouts. I don't think a scout ever came to watch games in Aberystwyth, not even the county team! We had some seriously good players aswell that could have easily developed into great ones. Finally is the attutude of the youth clubs and coaches at teams like Llanelli. My cousin (from North Wales) went to trialls at the club and made it into the youth setup. He was a big powerful prop (farmer's son). He didn't last long though, as soon as he destroyed some kid who was considered the next big thing, at scrum time, he was basically just told to leave and never come back. They decided to overlook a possibly better player because he wasn't from the Llanelli region and outshone their wonder prop. This for me sums up everything that's bad with rugby in Wales, and why we won't progress much further when we ignore 1/3 of our population! Especially when that third is the farmign region where kids tend to be strong and powerful, you know the forwards Wales are cryign out for!

Going to argue something here. 100% agree with what you have posted.

At the moment county scouts are non-existent its now the job of the youth coaches to nominate players for county selection. I can say in the last couple of years players like Tom James (Neath Scrum Half and Wales Youth), Luke Williams (Aberystwyth RFC / Camarthen Quins / Coleg Sir Gar / Wales U18), Rhodri Jones (Machynlleth / Llandovery / Wales U20), Ifan Evans (Aberystywth RFC / Llandovery / Llanelli / Wales U21 / Wales 7s) have had recognition from above the Llanelli area. But there are a few players here who should be looked at by Llanelli.

Yet saying all this ... Ifan Evans apparently a rumour I have heard that the reason why he won't be selected for the Scarlets is because he does not live within 20 miles of Llanelli. This is why Dafydd Jones had to move home from just outside Aberaeron to the Llanelli region.

 

[dullonien]

There's always gonna be the odd player thats too good to overlook. Dafydd Jones is a good example, as is Ifan Evans. I still don't think it happens early enough though. Once players are old enough to start playing for Llandovery, then things change, but before that that there's almost zero chance for children from Penweddig etc. to be involved with Llanelli youth etc. If they aren't picked up young, then it's often very difficult for those players to catch up with their South Walian equivalents at a later date. Many promising players from my year in school got no chances to develop and most left school at 16, got a job as a brickie, plumper etc. and stopped playing rugby for the most part. I've known other people who moved from Penweddig to Llandovery and got almost instant recognition.

It doesn't help that the youth coaches in these parts aren;t good eough either. Vivian Davies (Penweddig and Aberystwyth youth coach, or he was untill a few years ago) does as much as he can, and has dedicated most of his time to coaching rugby, but he's not a great coach by any stretch. South Wales schools get former Welsh international coaches, that must help hugely to the development of young players.