Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Tony Manx]

I see what you mean . I miss read your first comment . Many apologies .
It's definitely something they are going to have to look at . I'm not sure how they will sort it tbh

No probs mate!

 

[profitius]

From what I've seen, The Welsh regions joining the premiership would just be for one season, while they sort out the Rugby Champions Cup for the following year.
If this is the case, then I'm not sure whether the Regions would accept that deal as it'd burn bridges with the Rabo, as they'd have nowhere to return to the following year.

Or the league expands to 16 for one year and then back to 12 or 14. That would mean a lot of relegated teams.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Or the league expands to 16 for one year and then back to 12 or 14. That would mean a lot of relegated teams.

True, but I can't see the Aviva sides, or the regions, agreeing to that, to be honest.

 

[bertiec]

vote with feet?

You can use the same argument to justify cutting down the rain forests in Madagascar and it doesn't wash there either. We are all custodians of this sport and and we can do something about it, even if its voting with your feet and making your views public. Professionalism is not an excuse to **** on the players and the supporters from a great height. but that is what happened yesterday. They have a product and you are paying for it. You will still pay the same sky subscription next year despite no English club involvement in the euro cup. Is that a good product? No. So let find a new provider. English Regions. PRL think they can screw English rugby fans out of any involvement in the European cup because they are the only provider. That has to change now. Supply and demand folks, its time to get a new supplier.

quoting the words "Professional rugby" is not an excuse for sell crap to your consumers. You wanna buy turds then go right ahead but don't try to tell me that no one had a choice or a voice and that there shouldn't be any custodians for the game. The fact the there is no one standing up from the RFU and taking responsibility for the English game is an absolute disgrace. If this is what English rugby product is going to be next season then I'm not buying. Tickets or TV.

I have not, nor ever will buy into anything with sky. I will continue to support Tigers even if I no tv coverage. By the way rugby is not the rain forest of Madagascar or any other stupid anology. My comment was directed to the comments about through-put of new players. I still say once again we have been let down (historcal presidence?) and this is the dig your heels in bit. But it looks as if we are holding the sh***y end of the stick again as far as the H cup is concerned. But more Toulon like teams are needed to euthanase the others and give newcomers a spot.

 

[Amiga500]

How about Regions join the premiership, crowds flock to watch higher quality matches against the hated english opposition and extra revenue is brought in from an improved sponsorship and television deal?

Also unsure of whether WRU could afford to set up Super Clubs and pretty sure attendances would be worse than they are now unless they brought back the old clubs.

What is the BT deal per club currently per season? Aren't the WRU currently feeding the regions 7 figure sums (each) per annum?

I'm not sure if the games would be of significantly higher quality to encourage more to turn up; but as you indicate, their "hatred" of the English might make the otherwise nonplussed supporters take interest... a common source of hatred that over-rides their rivalry with the neighbouring Welsh club.


But, as the regions stand; I can't see more than half of them surviving beyond a season or two in a relegation Aviva.

 

[lucky number 7]

Come in lads if you want to start your own competition you'd want to put in a better showing

 

[Maverick1987]

Come in lads if you want to start your own competition you'd want to put in a better showing

After that performance your definitely not invited

We want to win something haha

 

[Thingimubob]

What is the BT deal per club currently per season? Aren't the WRU currently feeding the regions 7 figure sums (each) per annum?

I'm not sure if the games would be of significantly higher quality to encourage more to turn up; but as you indicate, their "hatred" of the English might make the otherwise nonplussed supporters take interest... a common source of hatred that over-rides their rivalry with the neighbouring Welsh club.


But, as the regions stand; I can't see more than half of them surviving beyond a season or two in a relegation Aviva.

The WRU put around £6million between the 4 regions, which is a pittance compared to some of the other European teams. I believe even the Italian teams have more funds available to them individually than the regions. There's a reason why the Ospreys went after Tebaldi and various Canadians after losing the likes of Fotuali'i and Bowe.

 

[smartcooky]

So, to sum up, as it was

The Premiership has 12 teams and the top six/seven get into the HC (depending on cirumstances)

The Welsh Regions have four teams the Pro12, and all four would normally play in Europe

The Welsh Regions join the Premiership to make that competition 16 teams

Questions?

1. How are they going to fit....

[TEXTAREA]32 weeks - 30 rounds of the Premieship plus two rounds of play-offs
9 weeks - 6 rounds of the European champonship plus three rounds of playoffs (whoever ends up running it)
5 weeks - Six Nations
4 weeks - Autumn Internationals
3 weeks - June tours
10 weeks - mandatory player rest and recovery
--------------------------------------------
63 weeks total[/TEXTAREA]

....into a 52 week year?

2. Are the Premiership going to be granted an extra four spots for Europe to make ten/eleven? If so, what is to stop all of those spots being taken by English teams?

3. Currently, all of the Welsh Regions get ERC money distribution, even if only three participate. As a part of the Premiership, would they each get 16th of the English share instead, and would that be more or less than a quarter of the current Welsh share?

4. What if, after four years, all of the Welsh teams are relegated to the Championship, and where would that leave Welsh Rugby

5. Do all the Welsh Regions own their home grounds, or are they owned by the WRU/Clubs?


Integration of Welsh Regions into the Premiership would not be as straightforward as some people think

 

[Peat]

The WRU put around £6million between the 4 regions, which is a pittance compared to some of the other European teams. I believe even the Italian teams have more funds available to them individually than the regions. There's a reason why the Ospreys went after Tebaldi and various Canadians after losing the likes of Fotuali'i and Bowe.

Its not a small amount either. I think at the very best, BT money would wipe out that and the old tv deal, leaving Welsh regions where they are. They'd be financially outgunned in the Premiership unless outside sugardaddies step in.

The real issue for a Welsh breakaway is the risk of the WRU refusing to pick players contracted to the regions. If they can make that stick, they lose every player with international ambitions, and I don't see how that's anything other than a show-stopper.

 

[Maverick1987]

Its not a small amount either. I think at the very best, BT money would wipe out that and the old tv deal, leaving Welsh regions where they are. They'd be financially outgunned in the Premiership unless outside sugardaddies step in.

The real issue for a Welsh breakaway is the risk of the WRU refusing to pick players contracted to the regions. If they can make that stick, they lose every player with international ambitions, and I don't see how that's anything other than a show-stopper.

I can't see the WRU doing that they won't even stop their players leaving for France

 

[Peat]

I can't see the WRU doing that they won't even stop their players leaving for France

Completely different kettle of fish. Players playing abroad is one thing. Players playing for a rebel entity is an entirely other thing. Its quite possible that the WRU would rather see every single Welsh player in France than playing for breakaway regions in the PRL. The WRU wants control of the players. They can always sign them back from the French. There is no way back from breakaway regions.

Which, of course, requires a successful legal action to begin with, one that would rock sport to its foundations. Not just rugby, but all of sport.

... I don't get why the Welsh are going for this, other than possibly desperation at the WRU's attempts to bring them completely under control. Even if it all comes to fruition, sooner or later the EPL will want those weekends back for European action. Its simply a better TV deal. What happens to the Welsh then?

 

[Thingimubob]

That said were the players stopped from playing for Wales when Cardiff RFC and Swansea RFC had their rebel season? Obviously different circumstances, but only time I've known Welsh teams to secede from their union

 

[stus768]

I have heard the WRU are obligated to put teams into the Pro 12 next season. Is this true?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Welsh premiership sides?

 

[smartcooky]

If anyone doubts that the Heineken Cup is a great competition, they need look no further than THIS

You will never see something that approaches anywhere near as big an upset as this in an Anglo-French turd ploughing competition, even less likely in an Anglo-Welsh league.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Welsh premiership sides?

English Championship equivalent I'm guessing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

English Championship equivalent I'm guessing.

They are, yeah (arguably weaker, though) but theyre all under the WRU banner, so if the regions jump ship, and the wru needs to provide clubs to the rabo as part of a contract, then it'd have to be them.

 

[Croket66]

Russian champion Krasny Yar signed Vasily Artemyev from Northampton (3 years deal)

I'm pretty sure they can be so more competitive than italians/portuguese/spanish teams in Amlin Cup

Even if they have not completed their transfers, here the team they can align for the next season :

1. Grigory Tsnobiladze (10 caps)
2. Valery Tsnobiladze (22 caps)
3. Maxim Cobilas (Moldova international; Vadim's brother)
4. Karolis Navickas (Lithuanian international; former Top14 player for Bordeaux Bègles
5. Dumitru Arhip (Moldova international)
6. Viktor Gresev (55 caps; former London Wasps player)
7. Andrey Garbuzov (51 caps)
8. Oleg Prepelita (Moldova international, named 2013 best player of the championship)
9. Toby Morland (41 Super Rugby caps for Chiefs, Blues, Highlanders. 4 games for Munster)
10. John Dodd (former ITM Cup player for Southland)
11. Vasily Artemyev (39 caps; played Premiership and Heineken Cup for Northampton)
12. Igor Galinovsky (22 caps) or Alexey Makovetskty (33 caps)
13. Craig Clare (5 Super Rugby caps for Highlanders, played Heineken Cup for Viadana)
14. Andrey Otrokov (10 caps; 2013 Russian Super League top tries scorer)
15. Glen Horton (21 Super Rugby caps for Highlanders; NZ Maori international)

If the tight five is weak, they have a strong backrow and an impressive back line

 

[coolbawn]

I see in The Times (of London) that Ian Ritchie at the RFU is meeting the English clubs this week. I still think and/or hope he can have an effect.

Hard for mere amateurs like me to assess the RFU role to date as we don't have the facts. Ian Ritchie *appears* to have had a big role in getting the other unions to agree the new qualification and revenue share suggested. I'm not convinced that those other unions really snubbed the RFU when they held their meeting without the RFU; I'd have thought that it was held *with* the RFU's knowledge so the RFU couldn't be accused of ratting on their own clubs.

The agreement supposedly without the RFU seemed to put the RFU in a strong position: the English clubs' qualification and revenue-sharing gripes had been addressed so if the English clubs turned that down, it could only be because of their overriding hatred of their own union.

Anyway, thank God there was some good HEC rugby at the w/e and (apparently) there's always a silver lining in these shenanigans. The much loved Stephen Jones said in yesterday's Sunday Times report on the Saints-Leinster match "The one good aspect of a reduced Heineken Cup without England teams is that at least English referees can take charge of games. In their absence, much of the officiating at the tournament can be terrifyingly bad."