Heineken Cup Semi Final- Toulon v Munster

Big Ewis · Apr 28, 2014

TRF_LittleGuy said:
I don't buy for a second that the All Blacks are universally loved, respected yes, but loved no. Just have a gander at any archived match thread here involving New Zealand, I can't exactly feel the love in nearly any of them(in fact I've actually been thinking of suggesting segregated match threads they are so atrocious.)

well I can't speak for the rest of the world, although I do understand other nations have a sort of hate for them and pure rivalry rather than admiration - but I can tell you in France they're highly respected, too much even - to the point where I want to tell some people "hey, come on now, they're great but we can beat them, quit it ! - and downright loved.
Even when we got ridiculed at home, Aussies in Paris 2010, all I could read on the french forums was "we played like shhit but my goodness they were magnificent", "that's what real Rugby is", "absolutely gorgeous tries from the Aussies"...etc...
There isn't that rivalry side in France at all, we feel like we're playing gods every time and the respect is absolutely enormous - and along with the 2010 Aussie example, this goes to show just how much the French people adore, worship running Rugby and flair.

munstermuffin · Apr 28, 2014

profitius said:
I'd be surprised to see him back. He is 3 years older now and was a bit of a headless chicken.

Was a good player, great defensively and towards end of his time here played out of position. With the right coaching and patterns he might be what he need. A cheap but dependable option if necessary.

smartcooky · Apr 28, 2014

Shaggy said:
I'd have to agree ... since the international windows are better than they were (they're still not as good as they could be, but they are workable), the quality of the touring sides is better - not that it's the over riding factor, but I can't see that a player is going to risk losing their potential spot in an RWC squad either, by not touring.

OK, it doesn't happen as much as it did in the late 1990's but as recently as 2004 & 2008, we have had half-arsed England teams coming to NZ and offering nothing.

Perhaps they will send stronger teams given that RWC is next year. That remains to be seen.

Shaggy said:
What I would like to see, is some sort of fee paid to the country/union that developed the player though

So would I.

When I went to Moffat Naval Air Station in the USA with the RNZAF for an advanced Specialist Avionics Equipment course, I had to sign a five year "return of service" on my contract, guaranteeing that I would not leave the service and go into the private sector. The only way out for me until the five years was up was to repay the cost of the training, IIRC it was about NZ$60,000 (in 1985 dollars). This was to ensure that the Air Force got their moneys worth out of me for what it cost them to train me.

In the same vein, I would like to see players required sign a four year "return of service" contract with the NZRU when they first play in ITM Cup (they don't get on the field without it) and an extension to that contract if they make the step up to Super Rugby, so that if they decide after a year or two to go to Japan or Europe, the club they are going to will have to pay the NZRU to buy them out of their contract. That way, at least the NZRU gets something back for the hundreds of thousand of dollars it costs to develop a player, because frankly, I have had enough of seeing players that the NZRU spends millions of dollars and years to develop, heading overseas without the NZRU getting anything back.

The other thing I would do is have an agreement between the NZRU and the ARU to play an annual three match New Zealand "A" v Australia "A" series to further player development and so that these second tier NZ and Australian players can have their eligibility captured, thereby preventing any possibility of having players like Bundi Ahki turning out for a European country.

Shaggy

First XV

Apr 29, 2014

#204

smartcooky said:

OK, it doesn't happen as much as it did in the late 1990's but as recently as 2004 & 2008, we have had half-arsed England teams coming to NZ and offering nothing.

Perhaps they will send stronger teams given that RWC is next year. That remains to be seen.

So would I.

When I went to Moffat Naval Air Station in the USA with the RNZAF for an advanced Specialist Avionics Equipment course, I had to sign a five year "return of service" on my contract, guaranteeing that I would not leave the service and go into the private sector. The only way out for me until the five years was up was to repay the cost of the training, IIRC it was about NZ$60,000 (in 1985 dollars). This was to ensure that the Air Force got their moneys worth out of me for what it cost them to train me.

In the same vein, I would like to see players required sign a four year "return of service" contract with the NZRU when they first play in ITM Cup (they don't get on the field without it) and an extension to that contract if they make the step up to Super Rugby, so that if they decide after a year or two to go to Japan or Europe, the club they are going to will have to pay the NZRU to buy them out of their contract. That way, at least the NZRU gets something back for the hundreds of thousand of dollars it costs to develop a player, because frankly, I have had enough of seeing players that the NZRU spends millions of dollars and years to develop, heading overseas without the NZRU getting anything back.

The other thing I would do is have an agreement between the NZRU and the ARU to play an annual three match New Zealand "A" v Australia "A" series to further player development and so that these second tier NZ and Australian players can have their eligibility captured, thereby preventing any possibility of having players like Bundi Ahki turning out for a European country.
Yep, I hadn't really thought the nuts and bolts of the idea through, and I must admit, I hadn't considered getting the players themselves to sign a contract, but it's probably the only way that it could work ... I was considering it as a global concept, not just for NZ players.

... I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have wondered why the NZ "A"s haven't been re-introduced, or why a second team hasn't been nominated (such as the under 20's), to capture eligibility

Leonormous Boozer

Fat Boi

TRF Legend

Apr 29, 2014

#205

Smartcooky, that's probably an accurate gulf in class between the two sides at those times, you're clutching at straws there, I think. Especially when fatigue and injuries are brought into play at the end of a season, it's natural enough not to have a full squad.

gaston le gaff

First XV

Apr 29, 2014

#206

As far as contracts go in France: if an Academy players who is not on a pro contract with his formater club decides to leave his club for another, signing a pro contract, the club benefitting from the Academy player must pay a fee for the players training and education, this is accessed by the no. of TOP 14 appearances, the no. of Junior Internalions he may have played -18, -20 levels etc. The fee if the player is top class and is obvious international material can be as high as 300,000€ but that is not often.
Some clubs like Clermont have started Academies in Fiji for obvious reasons, finacially probably a whole lot cheaper, with often excellent results.

McTallshort

International

TRF Legend

Apr 29, 2014

#207

smartcooky said:

OK, it doesn't happen as much as it did in the late 1990's but as recently as 2004 & 2008, we have had half-arsed England teams coming to NZ and offering nothing.

Perhaps they will send stronger teams given that RWC is next year. That remains to be seen.

So would I.

When I went to Moffat Naval Air Station in the USA with the RNZAF for an advanced Specialist Avionics Equipment course, I had to sign a five year "return of service" on my contract, guaranteeing that I would not leave the service and go into the private sector. The only way out for me until the five years was up was to repay the cost of the training, IIRC it was about NZ$60,000 (in 1985 dollars). This was to ensure that the Air Force got their moneys worth out of me for what it cost them to train me.

In the same vein, I would like to see players required sign a four year "return of service" contract with the NZRU when they first play in ITM Cup (they don't get on the field without it) and an extension to that contract if they make the step up to Super Rugby, so that if they decide after a year or two to go to Japan or Europe, the club they are going to will have to pay the NZRU to buy them out of their contract. That way, at least the NZRU gets something back for the hundreds of thousand of dollars it costs to develop a player, because frankly, I have had enough of seeing players that the NZRU spends millions of dollars and years to develop, heading overseas without the NZRU getting anything back.

The other thing I would do is have an agreement between the NZRU and the ARU to play an annual three match New Zealand "A" v Australia "A" series to further player development and so that these second tier NZ and Australian players can have their eligibility captured, thereby preventing any possibility of having players like Bundi Ahki turning out for a European country.
One of those games in 2004 was when Simon Shaw got incorrectly sent off when England were winning.

R

Rumpi

Academy Player

Apr 30, 2014

#208

munstermuffin said:
Can't blame guys for being positive. At end I agreed they should go for corner. All these money teams seem to buy all they want but have no creativity

The irony of a Munster man commenting about a lack of creativity, you've built a bandwagon around up the jumper rugby. Penny has tried to change that culture but you can't go around moaning about other teams style of play.

Hard luck to Munster, did well to make it so close, but just lacking the skill levels to finish Toulon off.

smartcooky

Referee Coach and Advisor

TRF Legend

Apr 30, 2014

#209

Tallshort said:
One of those games in 2004 was when Simon Shaw got incorrectly sent off when England were winning.

So you think kneeing an opponent in the head is not a red card offence?

M

munstermuffin

Hall of Fame

TRF Legend

Apr 30, 2014

#210

Rumpi said:
The irony of a Munster man commenting about a lack of creativity, you've built a bandwagon around up the jumper rugby. Penny has tried to change that culture but you can't go around moaning about other teams style of play.

Hard luck to Munster, did well to make it so close, but just lacking the skill levels to finish Toulon off.

Never once before did I see opposition have overlap and take drop goal. And not moaning just observing. They won so obviously it works.