Heineken Cup Final 2022/23: Leinster Rugby v Stade Rochelais

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That's really embarrassing, tbh

To give them some credit they didn't become top 14 regulars until 8 years ago nearly.

Honestly didn't realise they weren't a regular top 14 club until modern times

So most of the investment went into the trying to make sure they stay in the top 14 and trying to upgrade the stadium.

Although can't speak on if they have invested more in the academy since

 

[Stade Rochelais]

And so it begins.
Our Irish friends on the forum are truly pathetic.
To justify their double defeat in the 2022 and 2023 champion cup finals, they explain that the cause is because Stade Rochelais is the new Toulon. But it's really nonsense.

Stade Rochelais is a team that has worked to reach this level. If Stade Rochelais dominates Europe, it's because the group is united and Ronan O'Gara has transformed average players into super players.

Take the case of Skelton who was poorly exploited with Australia, with Ronan O'Gara, there is specific work being done on him and with him.

Stade Rochelais is not the new Toulon, there is no star at Stade Rochelais, it's just a group of players who have worked to surpass themselves and for three years, the Stade Rochelais has been reaping the years of work and the sacrifice they have sown.

Double European champion 2022 and 2023 and for three years Stade Rochelais has dominated Leinster.


The Stade Rochelais was built over 10 years, there were ups and downs. It is a club that was in the second division of French rugby.

Today Stade Rochelais is an example for many clubs as Andy Goode (ex Leicester player) said.

https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Take the case of Skelton who was poorly exploited with Australia, with Ronan O'Gara, there is specific work being done on him and with him.

Saracens transformed Skelton

 

[Stade Rochelais]

Saracens transformed Skelton

He has never been so decisive with the Saracens.

With Stade Rochelais, he has made a lot of progress.

Will Skelton of Saracens and Will Skelton of Stade Rochelais are two different players.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He has never been so decisive with the Saracens.

Hard disagree
There's a reason why La Rochelle paid the big big bucks for him

 

[munstermuffin]

And so it begins.
Our Irish friends on the forum are truly pathetic.
To justify their double defeat in the 2022 and 2023 champion cup finals, they explain that the cause is because Stade Rochelais is the new Toulon. But it's really nonsense.

Stade Rochelais is a team that has worked to reach this level. If Stade Rochelais dominates Europe, it's because the group is united and Ronan O'Gara has transformed average players into super players.

Take the case of Skelton who was poorly exploited with Australia, with Ronan O'Gara, there is specific work being done on him and with him.

Stade Rochelais is not the new Toulon, there is no star at Stade Rochelais, it's just a group of players who have worked to surpass themselves and for three years, the Stade Rochelais has been reaping the years of work and the sacrifice they have sown.

Double European champion 2022 and 2023 and for three years Stade Rochelais has dominated Leinster.


The Stade Rochelais was built over 10 years, there were ups and downs. It is a club that was in the second division of French rugby.

Today Stade Rochelais is an example for many clubs as Andy Goode (ex Leicester player) said.

https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Your Munster Irish friends said no such thing

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

He has never been so decisive with the Saracens.

With Stade Rochelais, he has made a lot of progress.

Will Skelton of Saracens and Will Skelton of Stade Rochelais are two different players.

He's improved over those years and is a better player now but there is no saying he wouldn't have improved at that rate at sarries. Every player should improve over time.

 

[munstermuffin]

I thought I'd read that the salaries in Ireland (for internationals and the like) were higher than England international players?

Would be really interested to compare salaries of all the home nations players to be fair.

Some go much higher IF they hit all relatively achievable bonus marks for international eg being available for all 6 Nations games etc.
A good example is this year most would have made over €500k as the bonuses from the grand slam etc.
But difference is a club player in France/England has a club contracts and bonus/appearance fees with National team.
In Irelnad every players contract is with the IRFU but has rates such as Academy, Provincal Squad, Provincal Elite, Provincal First Team, National Contracts then have similar and these are all different budget structures then. But for example where Leinster benefit is alot of their payroll is under IRFU and not Leinster budget. So that is where it gets tricky for most. Like Leineter may report they pay (picking figures out of sky) €10m on wages for year. It is actually $20m but $10m for top guys is going through IRFU and Leinster using them for free.

 

[Stade Rochelais]

Your Munster Irish friends said no such thing

I have a lot of respect for Munster and I thank Munster for training Ronan O'gara.

On the other hand, I cannot stand the arrogance of the technical staff and the players of Leinster.

What about Jonathan Sexton's lack of fair play, who allowed himself to insult several Stade Rochelais players in the tunnel leading to the locker room during half-time, he's a little thug.

I hope that Munster will become a European champion again in the years to come. It's a team with a history.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

On the other hand, I cannot stand the arrogance of the technical staff and the players of Leinster.

What about Jonathan Sexton's lack of fair play, who allowed himself to insult several Stade Rochelais players in the tunnel leading to the locker room during half-time, he's a little thug.

Ok, now I know you're trolling
You can't praise ROG with one breathe then say you hate that kind of attitude with the next

 

[munstermuffin]

Ok, now I know you're trolling
You can't praise ROG with one breathe then say you hate that kind of attitude with the next

ROG has no attitude lol

On side note it seems Sexton will be ok and won't get a ban of any kind to impact RWC.

 

[munstermuffin]

I have a lot of respect for Munster and I thank Munster for training Ronan O'gara.

On the other hand, I cannot stand the arrogance of the technical staff and the players of Leinster.

What about Jonathan Sexton's lack of fair play, who allowed himself to insult several Stade Rochelais players in the tunnel leading to the locker room during half-time, he's a little thug.

I hope that Munster will become a European champion again in the years to come. It's a team with a history.

View attachment 16728

Whatever about ROG the lad lifting that cup with him is the real God.

Some say he is 10 ft tall and could hurt the English with lightning bolts from his arse and daggers from his eyes.

 

[Stade Rochelais]

Ok, now I know you're trolling
You can't praise ROG with one breathe then say you hate that kind of attitude with the next

Of course I'm trolling a bit.
When I read the leinster fans' gratuitous insults against Stade Rochelais, I tell myself that this club is supported by small supporters.
I know that defeat can stir up hatred, but when I circulate in the leinster rugby fan forums, I am incredibly disappointed, I have even read racist remarks...
Brief.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Tbh all the talk of salaries is irrelevant. We don't actually know accurately what they are, so any attempt to shift the narrative to make Leinster look like the underdogs is ridiculous.

It's simple, Leinster were favourites going into the final, bookies odds heavily in their favour, opinions in their favour and they even sacrificed the URC to focus on this. (Yes I know La Rochelle also rested players, but they didn't risk it in a knockout match). This was an upset for the second year running plain and simple.

No denying that but I did say right after the semis that we shouldn't be big favourites. It's the ridiculous narratives going about that started this talk, I think ROG has been classless and delusional too in adding to it. "LaR a Small club", "disrespect from Leinster", even had a go at the fans and that's forgetting that the half time incident was almost certainly his doing given his previous. All so totally needless. I'd have said at the start of the week that I'd take him as a Leinster coach in a heartbeat, he can stay in France, don't want him near the Ireland squad either unless he's successful without the small man, chip on shoulder shtick. It just doesn't last in pro sport, case in point - Munster rugby.

They don't go the galactico route which is why they're very successful but they're winning races for signatures left and right. Hastoy being a prime example, he was wanted by 9 French clubs, they've massive, massive spending power and pick and choose the best players from smaller clubs with a few star signings to build a great side. The idea they're a Small club is insane.

Leinster are the ones financially doping apparently. The overall spend is big because the structure is to keep a massive squad for development, it's backed by a union based on the earnings of the international team and who Leinster develop the majority of players for. I think the average player salary is very unlikely to crack the top half of the top 14. It's also IRFU policy to really restrict Leinster's imports. The central contracted guys are on big money in the 350k - 700k (Sexton and Furlong) region but that's 8 players.

But when it comes down to it, if you want your club to get better, copy Leinster because it's possible and affordable to tap into local knowledge at club and school level and educate from there, we copied most of it from the Crusaders. Copying LaR is only possible for a handful of French clubs.

I don't think I have disparaged LaR, it certainly wasn't my intention to, they're a great team, fantastically coached and deserve their success. The bullshit thrown at Leinster has been inaccurate and classless though and is being lapped up by media everywhere as fantastic. We shouldn't be favourites against them any time soon though, and we really need to figure out how to beat them, we owe them big time, the base is there for us, the direction needs some tuning.

 

[munstermuffin]

No denying that but I did say right after the semis that we shouldn't be big favourites. It's the ridiculous narratives going about that started this talk, I think ROG has been classless and delusional too in adding to it. "LaR a Small club", "disrespect from Leinster", even had a go at the fans and that's forgetting that the half time incident was almost certainly his doing given his previous. All so totally needless. I'd have said at the start of the week that I'd take him as a Leinster coach in a heartbeat, he can stay in France, don't want him near the Ireland squad either unless he's successful without the small man, chip on shoulder shtick. It just doesn't last in pro sport, case in point - Munster rugby.

They don't go the galactico route which is why they're very successful but they're winning races for signatures left and right. Hastoy being a prime example, he was wanted by 9 French clubs, they've massive, massive spending power and pick and choose the best players from smaller clubs with a few star signings to build a great side. The idea they're a Small club is insane.

Leinster are the ones financially doping apparently. The overall spend is big because the structure is to keep a massive squad for development, it's backed by a union based on the earnings of the international team and who Leinster develop the majority of players for. I think the average player salary is very unlikely to crack the top half of the top 14. It's also IRFU policy to really restrict Leinster's imports. The central contracted guys are on big money in the 350k - 700k (Sexton and Furlong) region but that's 8 players.

But when it comes down to it, if you want your club to get better, copy Leinster because it's possible and affordable to tap into local knowledge at club and school level and educate from there, we copied most of it from the Crusaders. Copying LaR is only possible for a handful of French clubs.

I don't think I have disparaged LaR, it certainly wasn't my intention to, they're a great team, fantastically coached and deserve their success. The bullshit thrown at Leinster has been inaccurate and classless though and is being lapped up by media everywhere as fantastic. We shouldn't be favourites against them any time soon though, and we really need to figure out how to beat them, we owe them big time, the base is there for us, the direction needs some tuning.

To be fair I wouldn't paint you in it but there was a group of Leinster that seem to be there just for occasion and do let themselves down. But every club has that. Like you say the chip in shoulder bit doesn't work but the opposite could be said that for 2 years in a row it worked perfectly. The last 2 finals they used that chip and came out fighting.
Equally to a lesser extent look at Munster vs Sharks in league few weeks ago. POM started a scrap and got guys motoring and 22-3 turned in to 22-22.
I do think thats what Leinster lacked massively.
I think of alot of successful teams and they had that dog.
Munster used it every time a to English club came to Thomond Park. Sale in 2006 being the greatest example. A great side that were flying it in England but Munster unbeaten still at that stage got narrative to be we were the massive underdog.
Leinster in 2009 vs Munster - Rocky Elsom was an example of it. It fired up lads and even that famous picture of Sexton over ROG. It was out of being pinned and laying down a marker.
Even teams that are red hot favourites like England vs Ireland in Lansdowne Road. Martin Johnson and the red carpet fiasco. It galvanised a team who probably didn't need it.
Leinster eased through regular season but looking back now over resting lads was issue too maybe. They should have played stronger team against us, maybe they should have sent stronger team to S.A. on tour and tried get hands dirty there. All maybes of course.

On ROG - The beauty was and none of Leinster spotted this. Not 1 La Rochelle player was under pressure, ROG absorbed that all week and put it on himself.. Even post game and the coin toss - It is ROG who is taking the grievances and not the players. And I think fact Leinster fans and all are griping at ROG shows it worked and he outthought them and mentally beat them too.

Like what was classless that ROG did?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

To be fair I wouldn't paint you in it but there was a group of Leinster that seem to be there just for occasion and do let themselves down. But every club has that. Like you say the chip in shoulder bit doesn't work but the opposite could be said that for 2 years in a row it worked perfectly. The last 2 finals they used that chip and came out fighting.
Equally to a lesser extent look at Munster vs Sharks in league few weeks ago. POM started a scrap and got guys motoring and 22-3 turned in to 22-22.
I do think thats what Leinster lacked massively.
I think of alot of successful teams and they had that dog.
Munster used it every time a to English club came to Thomond Park. Sale in 2006 being the greatest example. A great side that were flying it in England but Munster unbeaten still at that stage got narrative to be we were the massive underdog.
Leinster in 2009 vs Munster - Rocky Elsom was an example of it. It fired up lads and even that famous picture of Sexton over ROG. It was out of being pinned and laying down a marker.
Even teams that are red hot favourites like England vs Ireland in Lansdowne Road. Martin Johnson and the red carpet fiasco. It galvanised a team who probably didn't need it.
Leinster eased through regular season but looking back now over resting lads was issue too maybe. They should have played stronger team against us, maybe they should have sent stronger team to S.A. on tour and tried get hands dirty there. All maybes of course.

On ROG - The beauty was and none of Leinster spotted this. Not 1 La Rochelle player was under pressure, ROG absorbed that all week and put it on himself.. Even post game and the coin toss - It is ROG who is taking the grievances and not the players. And I think fact Leinster fans and all are griping at ROG shows it worked and he outthought them and mentally beat them too.

I don't disagree but it's why I said if he continues like this I'd be skeptical. He's clever so I'd be surprised if he does but, equally, it's all he knew in his playing career.

His mind went straight to the Top 14 with us comments (at least me and the French lad in this thread will both agree that we want Toulouse to win that one) but he's hardly going to keep motivating Aldritt, Danty, Skelton and the crew by telling them they're massive underdogs after this season. It's only worked a second year in a row because English speaking media ignore France and French media take a while to accept change and LaR are not a traditionally big side.

They're the team to beat in Europe now, it's not an easy position to be, trust me.

I think Leinster's fragility is more of an individual thing, we rarely produce leaders. It's Sexton and, as of this year, Ryan. I think their departures in the last two finals were the losing of them for us, it's far too precarious. We haven't won one of these things without Isa, he had Hines, Elson, Thorn and Fardy to help out too. Externally hiring Lancaster ended up only exacerbating the issue. In hindsight considering our external recruiting is restricted to back ups, which I'm happy with given it's effect on Ireland, sticking with a head coach who has previous regarding not showing up in big moments for as long as we did whilst getting bullied in big matches on a yearly basis is the failing. Fine margins but cost us at least two of the last five cups imo.

Like what was classless that ROG did?

Having a direct go at opposition fans after a game is wild, like can you honestly say you've heard that? Nothing in the stadium to warrant it either.

 

[Groundhog]

Having a direct go at opposition fans after a game is wild, like can you honestly say you've heard that? Nothing in the stadium to warrant it either.

Tbf he was booed literally every time he came on the big screen. There was weirdly some booing when LaR players were down for extended periods as well, albeit from very small sections.

That said I do think it probably falls on a winning coach to take the high ground over 40'000 partisan fans. Stuff like the too much/too little eye contact thing is playschool level.

Does anyone know what went on in the tunnel? Reports are super shaky and seem to indicate Sean O'Brien was "stationed" (says the Irish Times) in the tunnel to stop O'Gara from approaching Jaco Peyper and it kicked off from there with Skelton and Sexton maybe involved.

I won't get into the La Rochelle = new Toulon/ R92 debate except to say that the way they've composed their squad is very impressive. They remind me more of Sarries in terms of getting the right faces in the right positions.

The run up to the match did make me appreciate how Andy Farrell with a very similar group of players approaches games, takes pressure off his players and just gives off quiet confidence in the run up to gameday

 

[Wichita]

Not really
Their backs are yes star studded mercs
The starting pack was though
1. Wardi (signed at 23 from Pro D2 team Béziers)
2. Bourgarit (Signed at 20 from Fédérale 1)
3. Atonio (signed at 21 after the head coach saw him at a 10's comp in hong kong as a amateur)
4. Sazy (Signed at 24 from the relegated Montauban)
5. Skelton (Signed from Sarries after they got spanked for cap cheating)
6. Boudehent (Signed at 18 from Fédérale 1)
7. Botia (signed as a free agent after 1 season with the Fiji international team as a amatuer)
8. Alldritt (Signed at 20 from Fédérale 1)

Absolutely true, whereas Racing92 or Toulon in its heydays were famous for recruiting old stars, La Rochelle specializes in recruiting unknowns or guys that are left on the bench in their club and need a new breeze of life. Atonio, Wardi, Aldritt are now obvious selections in the French Team and Hastoy, Bourgarit and Dulin are knocking on the door.
La Rochelle does not benefit a local ecosystem of local partner clubs like Toulouse. But they are very smart in the way they recruit new guys within their budget boundaries.

 

[Wichita]

No denying that but I did say right after the semis that we shouldn't be big favourites. It's the ridiculous narratives going about that started this talk, I think ROG has been classless and delusional too in adding to it. "LaR a Small club", "disrespect from Leinster", even had a go at the fans and that's forgetting that the half time incident was almost certainly his doing given his previous. All so totally needless. I'd have said at the start of the week that I'd take him as a Leinster coach in a heartbeat, he can stay in France, don't want him near the Ireland squad either unless he's successful without the small man, chip on shoulder shtick. It just doesn't last in pro sport, case in point - Munster rugby.

They don't go the galactico route which is why they're very successful but they're winning races for signatures left and right. Hastoy being a prime example, he was wanted by 9 French clubs, they've massive, massive spending power and pick and choose the best players from smaller clubs with a few star signings to build a great side. The idea they're a Small club is insane.

Leinster are the ones financially doping apparently. The overall spend is big because the structure is to keep a massive squad for development, it's backed by a union based on the earnings of the international team and who Leinster develop the majority of players for. I think the average player salary is very unlikely to crack the top half of the top 14. It's also IRFU policy to really restrict Leinster's imports. The central contracted guys are on big money in the 350k - 700k (Sexton and Furlong) region but that's 8 players.

But when it comes down to it, if you want your club to get better, copy Leinster because it's possible and affordable to tap into local knowledge at club and school level and educate from there, we copied most of it from the Crusaders. Copying LaR is only possible for a handful of French clubs.

I don't think I have disparaged LaR, it certainly wasn't my intention to, they're a great team, fantastically coached and deserve their success. The bullshit thrown at Leinster has been inaccurate and classless though and is being lapped up by media everywhere as fantastic. We shouldn't be favourites against them any time soon though, and we really need to figure out how to beat them, we owe them big time, the base is there for us, the direction needs some tuning.

My understanding of ROG comments is that La Rochelle has no history on either national and European scene. They have never had a French champion ***le, only reached the final once in 2021 (lost to Toulouse) and were mostly second tier in their whole history. They can be compared to some extent to Exeter, but with an even lesser record. Compared to Leinster or Toulouse, they are obviously minnows in that department. That does not mean they are a small club and lack ambition, no way, and I'm sure O'Gara does not mean he aims small !

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't disagree but it's why I said if he continues like this I'd be skeptical. He's clever so I'd be surprised if he does but, equally, it's all he knew in his playing career.

His mind went straight to the Top 14 with us comments (at least me and the French lad in this thread will both agree that we want Toulouse to win that one) but he's hardly going to keep motivating Aldritt, Danty, Skelton and the crew by telling them they're massive underdogs after this season. It's only worked a second year in a row because English speaking media ignore France and French media take a while to accept change and LaR are not a traditionally big side.

They're the team to beat in Europe now, it's not an easy position to be, trust me.

I think Leinster's fragility is more of an individual thing, we rarely produce leaders. It's Sexton and, as of this year, Ryan. I think their departures in the last two finals were the losing of them for us, it's far too precarious. We haven't won one of these things without Isa, he had Hines, Elson, Thorn and Fardy to help out too. Externally hiring Lancaster ended up only exacerbating the issue. In hindsight considering our external recruiting is restricted to back ups, which I'm happy with given it's effect on Ireland, sticking with a head coach who has previous regarding not showing up in big moments for as long as we did whilst getting bullied in big matches on a yearly basis is the failing. Fine margins but cost us at least two of the last five cups imo.


Having a direct go at opposition fans after a game is wild, like can you honestly say you've heard that? Nothing in the stadium to warrant it either.

But that is it and challenge of being continuous. ROG can't keep.using underdog narratives but for now it worked like if this game wasntin Dublin it would have actually benefitted Leinster more as the Fublin final helped build all grudges for La Rochelle. That was the stem of all chips.

As for having a go at opposition fans. I just saw he said he was getting abuse all the time once he was there and some by coaches box or en route were over the top and personal. Can't comment on it but if it were true then I suppose perspective is needed but as Groundhog said maybe he should have been bigger person. Like I do know a neutral or 2 last week asked was Leinster the new Glasgow with booing and it is an unfortunate thing that has vrept in there over excessively the last few weeks but this is a risk when the non natural fans dilute in and I've seen it here in Limerick before and elsewhere so it not a Leinster solely thing but like us before I hope Leinster do go above and beyond to stamp it out.

Regards leadership is that a top job issue too like Leo even when you try jate him you struggle as I've met him a few times and he is a total gent. Someone described him as the Roy Hodgson of rugby before and I agree as in he is a great person and not obnoxious or above it. Has time for everyone. Like do you need a ROG though who personality wise is a prick like but what you need in war. Sexton the same.

On bust up at h/t rumours are spinning and hard to know if SOB was statuoned or what as how would he know ROG would go there and why was Sexton there and why is it Sexton was the one most in trouble it seems for going after Peyper. Hard to say