Heineken Cup 1/4F - Toulon v Leinster

[gaston le gaff]

Weird about the Armitages: I know they were in an academy in France, but they were in the London Irish academy when they came to England and then 'graduated' to the senior side from there.

I think they were at Nice until 14/16yo then back to the UK, but because of this i think they qualify as Jiff for Toulon and are not classed as foreigners, but dont quote me on that.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes i did read the previos pages and money did not win this match a well drilled team won against a team that did not play well and lost.!!!!! If it takes only money then why are Racing Metro Champions as they spend much more than Toulon, whether you like it or not, the way rugby pro is going is based on teams like Toulon or other French clubs who have invested to win, if you buy a company then you want it to be profitable this is what Toulon have done it is now a sporting company showing a profit and have started winning trophies, things change and the good old days which i also loved probably more than todays game, is no longer, so we have to go with the flow, if Fench clubs start winning everything in Europe things will change in GB and Ireland they have too.
What i would like to ask is if a company in Munster offers a Dubliner a job and doubles or triples his wages he will not go as it is not in his ethics. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all a Munster have few Dubliners but Leinster also have Munster men. But no they never have to pay extra as the IRFU are employers of everyone.
Secondly I think you genuinely misread everyone because not 1 person said Toulon won because go money and I already mentioned if it was just money it'd be like Racing Metro. Toulon did well and deserved win but seriously you need to just read before commenting.

@Olyy Stuart Barnes said yesterday there was 2 or 3 only that came through Toulons academy if that was question you were asking

 

[Big Ewis]

It's rare that you see someone so completely contradict themselves in a single sentence.

no contradiction there. However, it's very rare to see such sour grapes, dear LORD contain yourself soldier !!

How many academy products were in their 23 yesterday?
Genuine question.

Chiocci. Orioli. Fresia. Chilachava the Georgian (played recently, not yesterday). Bruni.
Not bad considering all the money and int'l players they've got, and for a HC 1/4F.


Oh, just one more thing: our president, and 3 headcoaches, i.e. the guys who instill the rugby and culture of the team and tell the guys how to play, are all French. Just a little detail.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think they were at Nice until 14/16yo then back to the UK, but because of this i think they qualify as Jiff for Toulon and are not classed as foreigners, but dont quote me on that.

Fair enough.
It would make sense as they'd be in the FFR database as being registered youth players at a French academy, regardless of what happened afterwards.

 

[ratsapprentice]

As far as I can make out Delon and Steffon lived in England until they were 13 and 11 respectively, for 5 years until they were 18/16 at which point they moved back and joined LI.
Delon played 3 games for France u16's in that time, so it's pretty viable that he counts as french in administrative terms. All info from Wikipedia.

 

[TheSaffycen]

As far as I can make out Delon and Steffon lived in England until they were 13 and 11 respectively, for 5 years until they were 18/16 at which point they moved back and joined LI.
Delon played 3 games for France u16's in that time, so it's pretty viable that he counts as french in administrative terms. All info from Wikipedia

I think that's fair as their rugby development was very much down too the French, and it's only fair if they helped the guys through the system with their money that they get some of the benefits of it.

 

[Tony Manx]

Is that reffering to...If it does then I will ask: how?

Answer....

Then where will the players come from? That's the primary problem with their "model" .

Players will more and more come from the academies that they or other clubs run....you may not like it but that is the way it is...The French TV rights keep going up in price and Top 14 clubs find the money to keep the game going so nothing is going to change there and, consequently, as Gaston puts it, in his own inimitable way, the rest of Europe will have to evlove or lag behind................

 

[ratsapprentice]

Err... that's what I'm saying - they will need to produce more of their own players, because they wont rule the roost over the elite player market.

That is not their current model.

Previously you said it was inevitable that everyone else will eventually move to the Toulon model, and now you are saying Toulon will move to the traditional model*.

*Produce a core of players from your academy and augment them with cheaper "squad" players and a select few stars.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How will they lag behind? At club level yes the "French" clubs will be ahead but look at the cost of their club success to the international team, French rugby is going backwards because of their league. It may be worth it for club success but teams like Munster will be a huge threat to them in the next few years and Ireland, England and Wales are all ahead of them where it matters most. I know the argument is that in France the clubs are more important than the country but that is a complete losers attitude if you ask me. We'll probably have an all "French" European final again this year but that does little to hide the fact that French rugby is placing 4th in Europe. I don't really mind it because if Leinster, Munster, Ulster or one of the English outfits throw out a really good team they'll get beat but to say theirs is the model to go forward with is absurd as it is killing their international side.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I wouldn't say it's inevitable that other sides will move towards the French model. English sides are currently unable to do so due to the salary cap, while the Irish sides, being union controlled, will never allow the sort of number of foreign players that play in some of the French sides to be in their squads.

I'm reasonably confident in our ability to continue to compete going forward. We had a poor outing on the weekend, it's not like the south of France has ever been an easy place to go, even before the money started rolling in. Meanwhile Munster absolutely stuffed Toulouse. The provincial model is still producing the goods pretty well.

 

[FrenchFan]

How will they lag behind? At club level yes the "French" clubs will be ahead but look at the cost of their club success to the international team, French rugby is going backwards because of their league. It may be worth it for club success but teams like Munster will be a huge threat to them in the next few years and Ireland, England and Wales are all ahead of them where it matters most. I know the argument is that in France the clubs are more important than the country but that is a complete losers attitude if you ask me. We'll probably have an all "French" European final again this year but that does little to hide the fact that French rugby is placing 4th in Europe. I don't really mind it because if Leinster, Munster, Ulster or one of the English outfits throw out a really good team they'll get beat but to say theirs is the model to go forward with is absurd as it is killing their international side.

funny the senior side finished 4th in previous championships in the past, its happened throughout 70s, 80s and 90s. In 1999 we finished bottom of 5N and yet made the RWC final in same year, so were we in decline then as well? we must be in a permanent state of decline then

funny how many here are quick to bury us when you look at Ireland's record in Paris (never mind RWCs)

 

[Feicarsinn]

funny the senior side finished 4th in previous championships in the past, its happened throughout 70s, 80s and 90s. In 1999 we finished bottom of 5N and yet made the RWC final in same year, so were we in decline then as well? we must be in a permanent state of decline then

funny how many here are quick to bury us when you look at Ireland's record in Paris (never mind RWCs)

I'd agree that the calls that the French national side is in decline because of the number of foreigners in the league is premature. They've had two poor enough championships, but the coach has made some pretty strange calls in that time, which could just as easily account for the slump. We'd need a larger data set to see if there's any real correlation.

 

[Tony Manx]

Per Ulster v Sarries thread but applicable here......................sound words from a level headed poster!

I think we should all just end this because we can't agree on it..................

 

[profitius]

Toulon are bad for the world game. They're driving up the wages for all other teams and with the new French TV deal you'll have more and more money and more clubs competing for players.

Its going to have a negative effect on world rugby and the southern hemisphere could be hit hard by it. Already there are a fair few Australian internationals playing in France and more coming.

 

[FrenchFan]

Toulon are bad for the world game. They're driving up the wages for all other teams and with the new French TV deal you'll have more and more money and more clubs competing for players.

Its going to have a negative effect on world rugby and the southern hemisphere could be hit hard by it. Already there are a fair few Australian internationals playing in France and more coming.

I didn't know Toulon were that powerful. They're truly amazing aren't they. Imagine.. bringing down the rugby of both hemispheres. Because they're steamrolling NH rugby here as well. I mean they might as well. And the French national team. And Global Warming started in Toulon as well and it will end there mark my words...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

funny the senior side finished 4th in previous championships in the past, its happened throughout 70s, 80s and 90s. In 1999 we finished bottom of 5N and yet made the RWC final in same year, so were we in decline then as well? we must be in a permanent state of decline then

funny how many here are quick to bury us when you look at Ireland's record in Paris (never mind RWCs)

I wouldn't agree, France haven't won a championship in four years, and don't look in any way likely to win one soon but that's neither here nor there, the last time France went four years without a championship was between 1968 and 1977 and even then they shared championships in 1970 and 1973 (with everyone else). If they win next year this is nulled but they are yards behind Ireland, England and Wales so that is unlikely.

 

[FrenchFan]

I wouldn't agree, France haven't won a championship in four years, and don't look in any way likely to win one soon but that's neither here nor there, the last time France went four years without a championship was between 1968 and 1977 and even then they shared championships in 1970 and 1973 (with everyone else). If they win next year this is nulled but they are yards behind Ireland, England and Wales so that is unlikely.

yards behind England? so this is why England couldn't beat us. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[goodNumber10]

yards behind England? so this is why England couldn't beat us. That makes a lot of sense.

every dog has it's day.

But for comparisons sake, England beat New Zealand but no one would argue they were actually a better side than New Zealand - england have beaten you 2 out of three times since Lancaster took over, have had results against every team in the world except South Africa where France are still to beat any of the Top three in that same period.

 

[FrenchFan]

every dog has it's day.

But for comparisons sake, England beat New Zealand but no one would argue they were actually a better side than New Zealand - england have beaten you 2 out of three times since Lancaster took over, have had results against every team in the world except South Africa where France are still to beat any of the Top three in that same period.

Well you catch NZ at the end of a long season. You still can't win the 6N never mind a GS. If we are in decline but you still can't beat us in Paris. You can talk the talk but couldn't walk the walk. We still have a better record at home & away than you agst NZ.

 

[Thingimubob]

It is definitely true that Toulon are not helping the plight of the NH rugby atm, but it's a huge overstatement to say that they're alone in doing it. It is frustrating from a Welsh point of view seeing our best home grown players get cherry picked by teams with bigger financial muscle, Leigh Halfpenny being a good example of this. Just worries me that we'll end up seeing a football type scenario, where you have only one truly completely competitive league (EPL in football) with millionaire owners who use the other leagues as nurseries for their teams.