Heineken Cup 1/4F - Toulon v Leinster

[ruggabee]

I don't think the club situation has been a detriment to the national side's form. France are still producing class players regardless of how many foreign players are being bought my Toulon etc. The IRFU are strict on foreign signings because the bottle neck of aspiring talent is already so small. With only 4 provinces where 3 are only top class, there's only so many spots available for Irish talent. Even with our foreign player restrictions there are players who miss out and have to move to England or France (James Hart etc). France have a much larger leeway where they have 14 clubs to pick from. The problem with the French national side is their selections and coaching. You look at their team sheet and you can't honestly say they are lacking in class but when they take to the field you just think "WTF?" because there's no game plan.
I don't have any issue with Toulon in particular either. They have a culture that the players and fans love. Toulon is not in the business of pleasing fans from other clubs. As said it takes a lot more to be a successful side than to simply buy big name players. Those players all have to live and breathe the rugby philosophy and even integrate themselves into the Toulon culture. The fans love them and the fans want them so let them be. We talk about clubs like Toulon being detrimental to the game in the SH etc but we were talking about that years ago after the 2007 world cup and even though there was a huge exodus of players the SH to this day are still successful having continued to produce new, young and exciting talent in the place of those who left. I'd imagine that will keep happening. The game is moving in a direction where players aren't rooted to one place any longer. There is a flow where one player leaves another comes. We are used to the idea of territories but rugby is now feeling the effects of globalisation.

edit. I don't think I said anything about the actual game but from what I've read it has been said. Line outs were a shambles, completely overpowered at the break down, which made life hell for the half backs, and the rest of our back line was anonymous, especially the midfield where we possessed very little power or pace. Seeing D'Arcy getting out paced by Steffon Armitage was just I don't know.. The later had a great game.

 

[goodNumber10]

Well you catch NZ at the end of a long season.

Exactly my point. You caught England on a bad day and somehow you're leaps and bounds ahead of us? England caught NZ on an off day, but aren't a better side than them.

You only have to read back through the six nations threads to see the french fans bemoaning their own team... but suddenly one result makes you the better than everyone else?

it's about consistency of results and performance, it's har to argue england didn't produce consistent rugby whereas france had two good games all championship.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Yes in fairness a lucky bounce does prove that you are better than us and that Toulon has the right policy of bringing in lots of foreign imports. France have been in decline under PSA, though that is down too his decisions more than the Top 14. We beat New Zealand at the end of a long season and put 38 on them. We didnt beat you this year in France but just look at the time before. Anyway good to see that us playing at our worse and you playing at your best in Paris is a 2 point loss and a lucky bounce

 

[FrenchFan]

Exactly my point. You caught England on a bad day and somehow you're leaps and bounds ahead of us? England caught NZ on an off day, but aren't a better side than them.

You only have to read back through the six nations threads to see the french fans bemoaning their own team... but suddenly one result makes you the better than everyone else?

it's about consistency of results and performance, it's har to argue england didn't produce consistent rugby whereas france had two good games all championship.

i didnt say anwywhere that we were better than everyone else. No need to rewrite the script here. I was reacting to the comment that Fra are "YARDS" from Eng & Irel. Fact is you guys couldn't beat us in Paris. And a 2 point loss to Ire is not YARDS behind. That is raving BS.
You're right every dog has its day. Thats what the kiwi said about your team when they lost. It was the Eng bulldog.

 

[FrenchFan]

Yes in fairness a lucky bounce does prove that you are better than us and that Toulon has the right policy of bringing in lots of foreign imports. France have been in decline under PSA, though that is down too his decisions more than the Top 14. We beat New Zealand at the end of a long season and put 38 on them. We didnt beat you this year in France but just look at the time before. Anyway good to see that us playing at our worse and you playing at your best in Paris is a 2 point loss and a lucky bounce

It wasn't just a lucky bounce. Gimme a break. Eng got turned over in Paris. Huget's 2nd try came off a clear turnover.

yes blame PSA, thats more like it. Leave our Top14. Great competition. Best around for my own money. Many love it here and I don't hear french fans slagging off foreign competitions either. The national squad is the FFR problem. They can't manage it. Funny, Laporte won 3 GS with Fra when he was in charge, now he is coaching Toulon possibly to a 2nd European ***le.

 

[FrenchFan]

It is definitely true that Toulon are not helping the plight of the NH rugby atm, but it's a huge overstatement to say that they're alone in doing it. It is frustrating from a Welsh point of view seeing our best home grown players get cherry picked by teams with bigger financial muscle, Leigh Halfpenny being a good example of this. Just worries me that we'll end up seeing a football type scenario, where you have only one truly completely competitive league (EPL in football) with millionaire owners who use the other leagues as nurseries for their teams.

You're right. They couldn't give a ****e about Welsh rugby domestic woes. What should they? Its beyond me how so called rugby pundits can blame the woes of another league, other countries and entire hemisphere as well on ONE club. This is just jealousy.

Toulon are writing their own history.

 

[Thingimubob]

You're right. They couldn't give a ****e about Welsh rugby domestic woes. What should they? Its beyond me how so called rugby pundits can blame the woes of another league, other countries and entire hemisphere as well on ONE club. This is just jealousy.

Toulon are writing their own history.

Gonna assume that you got that I wasn't singling out Toulon? Just stating that they're still a part of it.

I guess one of the reasons people get so against Toulon is they just represent everything that rugby just hasn't been up until this point. I guess you could call it amateur sentimentality still remaining in our still fairly newly professionalised sport. It falls under why a lot of football fans don't like Man City or Chelsea as it feels like they bought their success with cash from their billionaire backers, just doesn't sit right with a lot of fans.

 

[Big Ewis]

how did this turn into a stupid "well France can do this" - "well England can do that" schoolyard fight again ? ffs....

English fans, stop hiding behind the "luck" France had in Paris and the supposed concept England were caught on a bad day. Let's not forget the insane way in which that game ends, so let's not take away from the awesome match this was and how dramatic til the very last whistle.

As for France, there's absolutely no question we're in decline, but it's not like it's an apocalyptic end to French Rugby, the players are still right there and strong as ever, it's just team sports aren't about a sum of individuals but about the chemistry of those individuals. As soon as we get decent guys to run the staff we'll be right where we should be: rightfully in the Top 5.
4th, then 6th, then 4th again at the 6N to name just the months of Feb and March these past 3 years.

And for Toulon, again:
had they not had the budget to create that depth, without the likes of Sheridan at LH, Ali Williams and Bakkies at locks, Chris Masoe at 8, or even Jonny during that match they'd have gone down at home to an enormously loaded Leinster side. This IS a fkn H Cup 1/4F, nobody's farting around at this point and there aren't too many sides left that only have humble club-level freshmen to simply put up a nice fight but go back home with their tails between their legs.

You look at Toulon that game and they didn't have as much talent and star power as Leinster, especially with Wilkinson out. Toulon played a few young homebrews, a few second stringers who by all means are fine but haven't been exactly test level all year long, and mostly has-beens who'll never see test level again (and for a good reason, mind you). Toulon's biggest name on the day was Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, not that he's exactly terrible, but still.

So what I'm saying more largely is: if you're gonna go for it, make sure you go for it. If you don't somebody else will, and yes there are restrictions and all that elsewhere but they'll find a way. That Tigers squad on paper doesn't look too modest for e.g.

 

[munstermuffin]

At end of day fact is Toulon or any French club aren't responsible for French team which is gone to crap. But that's partly due to players being overlooked for foreign imports but more so due to comedic management. PSA makes funny calls as did Lievermont. But all French clubs main concern is themselves and if they're winning and being profitable then it's hard to argue it.

 

[gaston le gaff]

At end of day fact is Toulon or any French club aren't responsible for French team which is gone to crap. But that's partly due to players being overlooked for foreign imports but more so due to comedic management. PSA makes funny calls as did Lievermont. But all French clubs main concern is themselves and if they're winning and being profitable then it's hard to argue it.

At last someone understands!!!!!!!!!! it will all change if Galthie ever gets in charge but that i doubt it as he is not a YES man

 

[Big Ewis]

Galthié won't take the job. No doubt. He's crafty and witty, more than he looks. I mean he's an honest man, but he won't flirt with THAT job...

 

[munstermuffin]

Crazy question but would Guy Noves ever fancy a crack at it before he retires

 

[Big Ewis]

Crazy question but would Guy Noves ever fancy a crack at it before he retires

nope. It's been hinted at a million times in French circles as you'd imagine...but for a number of reasons you'd guess instinctively it won't happen. I'm not even sure it would be all that great for France even at this point in his career, but it sure would beat PSA and co...

 

[gaston le gaff]

Crazy question but would Guy Noves ever fancy a crack at it before he retires

Noves is maybe now too old for the job and is in the same box as Galthie, they are their own men and would tell the FFR exactly what and how they would do the job, not good, this is the whole problem with French National rugby, its not the foreigners nor the clubs its a bunch of amateurs running a pro show, this has to change but they are too many old farts sat on their rumps playing at God protecting their positions, you just watch, after PSA the choice will be between Pelous, Sella and Ibanez i think thats a fair guess after this coming WC

 

[FrenchFan]

Noves never wanted the job. Galthie is not wanted. They're not in with the suits. Thats how you get a job up there. Look at St Andre, and how the hell did Lagisquet get to keep his job after last year?! This is whats wrong with the national side. Not the foreigners. French clubs are hurling down the motorway of professionalism. They have embraced professionalism like no tomorrwo while the FFR is still stuck with an amateur mindset.
The national coach is a mere figurehad. Its not a job. There's very little coaching involved thats why a hands on manager like Noves always turned down the job. Its about politics not coaching.

 

[FrenchFan]

there wont be any shortage of candidates. There's many quality French coaches doing some great work in Top14, I like what Landreau has done with Grenoble. Small budget, no stars, great team ethos. Same with Christophe Urios at Oyonnax. When you look at what these guys have done with the means at their disposal, they have some real quality.
Yeah Ibanez, Pelous are obvious future national coaches. Both are well in with the clowns running the FFR ship. Pelous is member of the selection comitee, coached the U20 to a GS this season, he ticks all the boxes. Ibanez i think will want to continue the adventure with Bordeaux. He has done very well there. No shortage of talent and men there either.

The people doing all the damage to the national side are the FFR lunkheads themselves.

 

[goodNumber10]

Noves is maybe now too old for the job and is in the same box as Galthie, they are their own men and would tell the FFR exactly what and how they would do the job, not good, this is the whole problem with French National rugby, its not the foreigners nor the clubs its a bunch of amateurs running a pro show, this has to change but they are too many old farts sat on their rumps playing at God protecting their positions, you just watch, after PSA the choice will be between Pelous, Sella and Ibanez i think thats a fair guess after this coming WC

Galthie would be a brilliant national coach.

 

[munstermuffin]

Is Pelous up to that like a great player but surely French will need some experienced head next considering where they are.

 

[Big Ewis]

Galthie would be a brilliant national coach.

*would. You picked the right conjugation for your sentence there. And btw I PM'ed you you dick, go answer me !!

FrenchFan, one problem doesn't disable another or make it irrelevant or powerless. Yes the FFR are fkn ape IQ-leveled gigolos who don't seem to give a flying, swimming, vomiting SHHIT about the very state of French Rugby or our team's success. It seems highly, highly political up there....

BUT: that doesn't mean all of a sudden the hordes of foreigners has nothing at all to do with the state of French Rugby. It hasn't affected our national team badly yet, but if this progression keeps up, just you watch. We'll start picking more and more guys for the great prestigious XV de France...from the BENCHES of the Top 14.

But right now right now, it's the FFR clearly and indisputably no matter the potential opposing arguments that is fkin up our chances at the top.

Also, I do love Urios, he looks so involved each match and to get his modest boys to beat freaking Toulon and Clermont and co., goddamn, headcoach has got to have a lot to do with that.
Pelous is teaching the little Bleus, so nothing like test level Rugby when you have to coach France and show up against the All-Blacks or Srpingboks...but he's definitely there in our subconscious.

 

[FrenchFan]

I couldn't care less who will be the national coach. It's a political appointment and a political job. The national coach is a mere figurehead. Im interested in rugby not the politics of it. Im simply feeding info into the thread but it's the last topic on my list. Doesn't matter who gets the job, its a dead end job.