Guinness Pro 12 2014/15: Three changes for next year

[valley commando]

Submission to what exactly?

Or do you think they are trying to invest in a semi-pro team north of the M4 where they could try foster a useful working relationship to develop players in the region? Particularly as the strength of Merythr will be by far the strongest semi-pro team in Wales if the signings go ahead. Seasoned internationals, plus a number young players from the Valleys, will be hard to stop. I think you probably need to expect Ponty players being signed by the Blues and handed out to Merthyr in the coming years.

You really are a massive wind up merchant, have a pleasant evening.

 

[Bluemoon]

You really are a massive wind up merchant, have a pleasant evening.

I genuinely didn't mean that post to come across as being a 'wind up' post. I'm just pointing out what might happen.

I was asking you what exactly the Thomas brothers are forcing Ponty to do (or not to do?). If it's to not be involved in the BIC, thats a whole WRU decision. All the regions, and the majority of clubs are saying yes to mini region select teams (probably tonight).

Other than that, Ponty aren't really influenced by Peter or Stan Thomas. They are investing in Merthyr because Ponty do not want anything to do with a team based in Cardiff. I'm not saying Merthyr necessarily do, but something had to change.

 

[Jerry Blue]

No they are just trying to create another feeder team that doesn't hate the Blues and one day maybe they could play there or base an A team that's if they ever sort them out! Or a future pro franchise. The Blues aren't trying to bully Ponty. They just want to actually live up to their regional responsibilities and they can only do that with Merthyr as the valleys team as Ponty won't even talk to them and in the paper today they had a meeting but all that came from it was they agree to disagree. So that's why Merthyr is being invested in.

 

[Thingimubob]

Haven't the Blues reached out to Ponty numerous times to try and stage games at Sardis road? Also, played a few pre season friendlies there too against Ponty...

They might not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are not the big bad bully that you're making them out to be valley commando...

They have at least attempted to build bridges and make the best of a bad situation!

 

[valley commando]

Haven't the Blues reached out to Ponty numerous times to try and stage games at Sardis road? Also, played a few pre season friendlies there too against Ponty...

They might not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are not the big bad bully that you're making them out to be valley commando...

They have at least attempted to build bridges and make the best of a bad situation!

Best non Ponty rugby memory apart from Ponty SWALEC cup cardiff 14 ST PETERS 16

 

[Tony Manx]

Best non Ponty rugby memory apart from Ponty SWALEC cup cardiff 14 ST PETERS 16

You would appear to me to be equally as bad as those in Biarritz and Bayonne who, by their implacable opposition to a merger, have shown that they would prefer their parochialism and to revel in failure, being lower grade rugby and eventual professional oblivion, to supporting competitive, and the continuance of, professional rugby in your area!

I maybe wrong.........

 

[valley commando]

You would appear to me to be equally as bad as those in Biarritz and Bayonne who, by their implacable opposition to a merger, have shown that they would prefer their parochialism and to revel in failure, being lower grade rugby and eventual professional oblivion, to supporting competitive, and the continuance of, professional rugby in your area!

I maybe wrong.........

You may well be.

- - - Updated - - -

You would appear to me to be equally as bad as those in Biarritz and Bayonne who, by their implacable opposition to a merger, have shown that they would prefer their parochialism and to revel in failure, being lower grade rugby and eventual professional oblivion, to supporting competitive, and the continuance of, professional rugby in your area!

I maybe wrong.........

But then again.

 

[valley commando]

Haven't the Blues reached out to Ponty numerous times to try and stage games at Sardis road? Also, played a few pre season friendlies there too against Ponty...

They might not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are not the big bad bully that you're making them out to be valley commando...

They have at least attempted to build bridges and make the best of a bad situation!

My final and definitive word on this (hopefully)
Ponty had loads of good media coverage re the BIC in the last couple of years, something the Regions and WRU werent happy about, ie taking the limelite away from the plastic regions, also PONTY WAS ABLE TO RUN THE CLUB IN THE BLACK, unlike most another region for jealousy.
And so the WRUin, Gareth perfect hair Davies and the mark 1 and 2 piemen have contrived to teach Ponty a lesson. I have no ill feeling towards Merthyr, or indeed any players going there, but have the Merthyr committee thought of how they will sustain their mega wage bill should pieman 2 either pull out in a couple of years or pass away (hes getting on a bit) They wont get enough through the gate to sustain the wages should that happen and will then go under.
next who the hell are going to watch region A sides in the BIC maybe a couple of hundred, are the premier clubs getting any compo for not being able to play in the BIC, a major revenue stream taken away.
Also you pro piemen/ Blues followers keep saying its only Ponty against these changes, speaking to other clubs they feel the same but are worried about how their respective regions will act iof they become vocal.
So essentially Ponty are the only club with big enough balls to say it how it is.
Not to long ago perfect hair was talking of the regions joining the Aviva, singing to a different tune currently.
In the past pieman 1 threatened to take the WRU to court if changes he wasnt happy with were implemented, now he is instrumental in changes which are being rushed through to help pieman 2 and the Merthyr project, ie A licence promotion to prem etc.
This ******** will lead to the demise of club rugby as we now know it.

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't the Blues reached out to Ponty numerous times to try and stage games at Sardis road? Also, played a few pre season friendlies there too against Ponty...

They might not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are not the big bad bully that you're making them out to be valley commando...

They have at least attempted to build bridges and make the best of a bad situation!

My final and definitive word on this (hopefully)
Ponty had loads of good media coverage re the BIC in the last couple of years, something the Regions and WRU werent happy about, ie taking the limelite away from the plastic regions, also PONTY WAS ABLE TO RUN THE CLUB IN THE BLACK, unlike most another region for jealousy.
And so the WRUin, Gareth perfect hair Davies and the mark 1 and 2 piemen have contrived to teach Ponty a lesson. I have no ill feeling towards Merthyr, or indeed any players going there, but have the Merthyr committee thought of how they will sustain their mega wage bill should pieman 2 either pull out in a couple of years or pass away (hes getting on a bit) They wont get enough through the gate to sustain the wages should that happen and will then go under.
next who the hell are going to watch region A sides in the BIC maybe a couple of hundred, are the premier clubs getting any compo for not being able to play in the BIC, a major revenue stream taken away.
Also you pro piemen/ Blues followers keep saying its only Ponty against these changes, speaking to other clubs they feel the same but are worried about how their respective regions will act iof they become vocal.
So essentially Ponty are the only club with big enough balls to say it how it is.
Not to long ago perfect hair was talking of the regions joining the Aviva, singing to a different tune currently.
In the past pieman 1 threatened to take the WRU to court if changes he wasnt happy with were implemented, now he is instrumental in changes which are being rushed through to help pieman 2 and the Merthyr project, ie A licence promotion to prem etc.
This ******** will lead to the demise of club rugby as we now know it.

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't the Blues reached out to Ponty numerous times to try and stage games at Sardis road? Also, played a few pre season friendlies there too against Ponty...

They might not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are not the big bad bully that you're making them out to be valley commando...

They have at least attempted to build bridges and make the best of a bad situation!

My final and definitive word on this (hopefully)
Ponty had loads of good media coverage re the BIC in the last couple of years, something the Regions and WRU werent happy about, ie taking the limelite away from the plastic regions, also PONTY WAS ABLE TO RUN THE CLUB IN THE BLACK, unlike most another region for jealousy.
And so the WRUin, Gareth perfect hair Davies and the mark 1 and 2 piemen have contrived to teach Ponty a lesson. I have no ill feeling towards Merthyr, or indeed any players going there, but have the Merthyr committee thought of how they will sustain their mega wage bill should pieman 2 either pull out in a couple of years or pass away (hes getting on a bit) They wont get enough through the gate to sustain the wages should that happen and will then go under.
next who the hell are going to watch region A sides in the BIC maybe a couple of hundred, are the premier clubs getting any compo for not being able to play in the BIC, a major revenue stream taken away.
Also you pro piemen/ Blues followers keep saying its only Ponty against these changes, speaking to other clubs they feel the same but are worried about how their respective regions will act iof they become vocal.
So essentially Ponty are the only club with big enough balls to say it how it is.
Not to long ago perfect hair was talking of the regions joining the Aviva, singing to a different tune currently.
In the past pieman 1 threatened to take the WRU to court if changes he wasnt happy with were implemented, now he is instrumental in changes which are being rushed through to help pieman 2 and the Merthyr project, ie A licence promotion to prem etc.
This ******** will lead to the demise of club rugby as we now know it.

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't the Blues reached out to Ponty numerous times to try and stage games at Sardis road? Also, played a few pre season friendlies there too against Ponty...

They might not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are not the big bad bully that you're making them out to be valley commando...

They have at least attempted to build bridges and make the best of a bad situation!

My final and definitive word on this (hopefully)
Ponty had loads of good media coverage re the BIC in the last couple of years, something the Regions and WRU werent happy about, ie taking the limelite away from the plastic regions, also PONTY WAS ABLE TO RUN THE CLUB IN THE BLACK, unlike most another region for jealousy.
And so the WRUin, Gareth perfect hair Davies and the mark 1 and 2 piemen have contrived to teach Ponty a lesson. I have no ill feeling towards Merthyr, or indeed any players going there, but have the Merthyr committee thought of how they will sustain their mega wage bill should pieman 2 either pull out in a couple of years or pass away (hes getting on a bit) They wont get enough through the gate to sustain the wages should that happen and will then go under.
next who the hell are going to watch region A sides in the BIC maybe a couple of hundred, are the premier clubs getting any compo for not being able to play in the BIC, a major revenue stream taken away.
Also you pro piemen/ Blues followers keep saying its only Ponty against these changes, speaking to other clubs they feel the same but are worried about how their respective regions will act iof they become vocal.
So essentially Ponty are the only club with big enough balls to say it how it is.
Not to long ago perfect hair was talking of the regions joining the Aviva, singing to a different tune currently.
In the past pieman 1 threatened to take the WRU to court if changes he wasnt happy with were implemented, now he is instrumental in changes which are being rushed through to help pieman 2 and the Merthyr project, ie A licence promotion to prem etc.
This ******** will lead to the demise of club rugby as we now know it.

 

[valley commando]

No they are just trying to create another feeder team that doesn't hate the Blues and one day maybe they could play there or base an A team that's if they ever sort them out! Or a future pro franchise. The Blues aren't trying to bully Ponty. They just want to actually live up to their regional responsibilities and they can only do that with Merthyr as the valleys team as Ponty won't even talk to them and in the paper today they had a meeting but all that came from it was they agree to disagree. So that's why Merthyr is being invested in.

My final and definitive word on this (hopefully)
Ponty had loads of good media coverage re the BIC in the last couple of years, something the Regions and WRU werent happy about, ie taking the limelite away from the plastic regions, also PONTY WAS ABLE TO RUN THE CLUB IN THE BLACK, unlike most another region for jealousy.
And so the WRUin, Gareth perfect hair Davies and the mark 1 and 2 piemen have contrived to teach Ponty a lesson. I have no ill feeling towards Merthyr, or indeed any players going there, but have the Merthyr committee thought of how they will sustain their mega wage bill should pieman 2 either pull out in a couple of years or pass away (hes getting on a bit) They wont get enough through the gate to sustain the wages should that happen and will then go under.
next who the hell are going to watch region A sides in the BIC maybe a couple of hundred, are the premier clubs getting any compo for not being able to play in the BIC, a major revenue stream taken away.
Also you pro piemen/ Blues followers keep saying its only Ponty against these changes, speaking to other clubs they feel the same but are worried about how their respective regions will act iof they become vocal.
So essentially Ponty are the only club with big enough balls to say it how it is.
Not to long ago perfect hair was talking of the regions joining the Aviva, singing to a different tune currently.
In the past pieman 1 threatened to take the WRU to court if changes he wasnt happy with were implemented, now he is instrumental in changes which are being rushed through to help pieman 2 and the Merthyr project, ie A licence promotion to prem etc.
This ******** will lead to the demise of club rugby as we now know it.

- - - Updated - - -

I genuinely didn't mean that post to come across as being a 'wind up' post. I'm just pointing out what might happen.

I was asking you what exactly the Thomas brothers are forcing Ponty to do (or not to do?). If it's to not be involved in the BIC, thats a whole WRU decision. All the regions, and the majority of clubs are saying yes to mini region select teams (probably tonight).

Other than that, Ponty aren't really influenced by Peter or Stan Thomas. They are investing in Merthyr because Ponty do not want anything to do with a team based in Cardiff. I'm not saying Merthyr necessarily do, but something had to change.

My final and definitive word on this (hopefully)
Ponty had loads of good media coverage re the BIC in the last couple of years, something the Regions and WRU werent happy about, ie taking the limelite away from the plastic regions, also PONTY WAS ABLE TO RUN THE CLUB IN THE BLACK, unlike most another region for jealousy.
And so the WRUin, Gareth perfect hair Davies and the mark 1 and 2 piemen have contrived to teach Ponty a lesson. I have no ill feeling towards Merthyr, or indeed any players going there, but have the Merthyr committee thought of how they will sustain their mega wage bill should pieman 2 either pull out in a couple of years or pass away (hes getting on a bit) They wont get enough through the gate to sustain the wages should that happen and will then go under.
next who the hell are going to watch region A sides in the BIC maybe a couple of hundred, are the premier clubs getting any compo for not being able to play in the BIC, a major revenue stream taken away.
Also you pro piemen/ Blues followers keep saying its only Ponty against these changes, speaking to other clubs they feel the same but are worried about how their respective regions will act iof they become vocal.
So essentially Ponty are the only club with big enough balls to say it how it is.
Not to long ago perfect hair was talking of the regions joining the Aviva, singing to a different tune currently.
In the past pieman 1 threatened to take the WRU to court if changes he wasnt happy with were implemented, now he is instrumental in changes which are being rushed through to help pieman 2 and the Merthyr project, ie A licence promotion to prem etc.
This ******** will lead to the demise of club rugby as we now know it.

 

[Jerry Blue]

But that's the thing sadly welsh club rugby died when rugby went professional. Clubs like Pontypridd RFC are just to small to sustain a professional franchise as the cost is too much so Wales has to have franchises based in the biggest towns/cities and this has caused certain fans to hate that. The franchises themselves are viable and in the correct places they just need to be run and marketed correctly and I also believe that the dream of joining the Aviva will be realised as a full British and Irish league as part of the war between BT Sport and Sky sports and as the price for votes for Ireland 2023 world cup bid. I also believe the changes that are being rushed through and implemented are part of a plan to work towards a B&I league. Honestly as well does anyone in wales really care what Ponty did in the B&I cup? apart from Ponty fans. It is a development tournament after all and A teams are all about development and not crowds.

 

[valley commando]

But that's the thing sadly welsh club rugby died when rugby went professional. Clubs like Pontypridd RFC are just to small to sustain a professional franchise as the cost is too much so Wales has to have franchises based in the biggest towns/cities and this has caused certain fans to hate that. The franchises themselves are viable and in the correct places they just need to be run and marketed correctly and I also believe that the dream of joining the Aviva will be realised as a full British and Irish league as part of the war between BT Sport and Sky sports and as the price for votes for Ireland 2023 world cup bid. I also believe the changes that are being rushed through and implemented are part of a plan to work towards a B&I league. Honestly as well does anyone in wales really care what Ponty did in the B&I cup? apart from Ponty fans. It is a development tournament after all and A teams are all about development and not crowds.

So based on what you said re franchises only in the larger towns and cities -: llanelli only have 6,000 more people than Ponty.
You say smugly that club rugby died with the advent of pro rugby, when in fact it died when the WRUin forced the regions on us, which nobody wanted then and very few want now.
The Blues average 8,000 at home.
Pre the regions in the 2001/2002 Celtic league Cardiff, Ponty Bridgend and Caerphilly, the average Cardiff crowd was 5,500, Ponty 4,070, Bridgend 3,150 and Caerphilly 2,300 a total of 15,020, so over 7,000 fans not interested in plastic regions and only an extra 2,500 on Cardiffs old gates.
With an East and West region the crowds would return and with the addition of the Gwent based clubs boost the crowds to as much as 20,000 plus for each home game for the East.
Although from a logistic financial and fans perspective this would make sense, perfect hair and the piemen will ensure it never does, so Welsh rugby will continue to be run for the minority and the piemen will get fatter whilst perfect hair continues to glance at his own reflection in every mirror and Cardiff shop window not giving a **** what anyone outside of Cardiff thinks or feels.

 

[Jerry Blue]

Llanelli has a population of over 50,000 and Pontypridd 30,000 bit more than 6,000. Actually i was not smug about it i said sadly. As much as i would like as a fan a fully professional Welsh league with 10-12 teams in it based on the old club system, i also realise that South Wales has changed a lot in 15 years and I'm sad to say that club rugby has died away as people are less loyal than they used to be and have more choice of sports. Cardiff have 4 professional teams in the city competing for fans and it is no coincidence that when the Blues are doing well the crowds are bigger or when Cardiff city are not doing well their crowds plummet, many of those fans are also from the valleys and that the Devils are filling their stadium now that they are winning trophies. People now pick and choose where they go and tend to gravitate towards big events like Heineken cup games, the derbies and Judgement day. The area has changed. I don't recognise Cardiff from when I was a child! Plus any East Wales franchise would be named Cardiff and a West would be named Swansea like the football as that is what the football teams really are and most Ospreys fans also support Swansea city where as most Blues fans don't support Cardiff city but there are fans who are not hardcore fans in either sport who will float between the 2 for the big matches maybe that's a result of Cardiff's large student population. I think people are becoming more like Americans in their sporting consumption and maybe rugby should look to emulate NFL in the way they operate with a short season and packed stadiums instead of a long season with half full stadiums. Why would Peter thomas care about anything but cardiff as that is the franchise that he owns! In rugby many of the older fans problems and i include Cardiff fans in this is that people can't look beyond there own little clubhouse towards a different future in where Wales can only afford 4 franchise clubs unless there is a major cash injection into Welsh rugby.

 

[valley commando]

Llanelli has a population of over 50,000 and Pontypridd 30,000 bit more than 6,000. Actually i was not smug about it i said sadly. As much as i would like as a fan a fully professional Welsh league with 10-12 teams in it based on the old club system, i also realise that South Wales has changed a lot in 15 years and I'm sad to say that club rugby has died away as people are less loyal than they used to be and have more choice of sports. Cardiff have 4 professional teams in the city competing for fans and it is no coincidence that when the Blues are doing well the crowds are bigger or when Cardiff city are not doing well their crowds plummet, many of those fans are also from the valleys and that the Devils are filling their stadium now that they are winning trophies. People now pick and choose where they go and tend to gravitate towards big events like Heineken cup games, the derbies and Judgement day. The area has changed. I don't recognise Cardiff from when I was a child! Plus any East Wales franchise would be named Cardiff and a West would be named Swansea like the football as that is what the football teams really are and most Ospreys fans also support Swansea city where as most Blues fans don't support Cardiff city but there are fans who are not hardcore fans in either sport who will float between the 2 for the big matches maybe that's a result of Cardiff's large student population. I think people are becoming more like Americans in their sporting consumption and maybe rugby should look to emulate NFL in the way they operate with a short season and packed stadiums instead of a long season with half full stadiums. Why would Peter thomas care about anything but cardiff as that is the franchise that he owns! In rugby many of the older fans problems and i include Cardiff fans in this is that people can't look beyond there own little clubhouse towards a different future in where Wales can only afford 4 franchise clubs unless there is a major cash injection into Welsh rugby.

You have massively over inflated Llanelli population figures the following from Llanelli council-:


About Llanelli
The town of Llanelli with a population of some 35,000 people is situated in the South Eastern corner of Carmarthenshire in South West Wales. It lies some twelve miles west of the City of Swansea and the Town Council's administration area covers approximately 2070 acres. Llanelli is a coastal town where the Welsh language is still widely spoken. It has a long association with the tinplate, steel, and coal mining industries, and is the home of the world-famous Llanelli Scarlets, one of Wales' four regional rugby teams.

Llanelli is currently being transformed as it benefits from £60 million regeneration programme.

Five major projects are being developed which will showcase a wide range of arts, entertainment, leisure and business opportunities. These include a new theatre, arts and social enterprise complex call Y Ffwrnes, the refurbishments of Llanelly House and Llanelli Library, a new leisure, office and retail development called East Gate, with additional extensive new town centre improvements in Vaughan Street and Stepney Street including canopies and lighting.

link to www.trefllanellitown.com/ link to www.llanellitown.com
Back to top of page© Llanelli Town Council 2015
Llanelli Town Council, The Old Vicarage, Town Hall Square, Llanelli, SA15 3DD

Secondly 2 regions would be called East and West as that would appease the vast majority of fans, (rather than perfect hair and the piemen)
You are right about the lack of cash hence 2 regions would be profitable.
Did you read the rugby paper today ? Shane Williams is now speaking out about the WRUins stupid decision re the prem clubs not playing in the BIC, well done 'The River'

 

[Jerry Blue]

According to the 2011 census Llanelli has a population 49,951. So either Llanelli council is wrong or the census. My bet is on the council. When have the fans ever been thought about! If the fans had been thought about the pro 12 would be a different league set up to maximise it's potential instead of just a warm up tournament for the Irish for Europe and the Internationals. It's about branding Blues and Ospreys or Swansea and Cardiff can be better promoted than East Wales and West Wales. Nope haven't got the Rugby paper today.
The A teams going into the B&I cup is so the pro 12 teams are the only ones playing the cross border competitions and it gives them the chance to put in the proper layered structure of 1st team then A team then academy. I hope it leads to the whole feeder team thing going and a draft put in place like in the US so the worst team gets the first pick and each team have their A team play in either a pro 12 A league or B&I A league. That way the pro 12 teams are a separate level to the Premiership.

 

[valley commando]

According to the 2011 census Llanelli has a population 49,951. So either Llanelli council is wrong or the census. My bet is on the council. When have the fans ever been thought about! If the fans had been thought about the pro 12 would be a different league set up to maximise it's potential instead of just a warm up tournament for the Irish for Europe and the Internationals. It's about branding Blues and Ospreys or Swansea and Cardiff can be better promoted than East Wales and West Wales. Nope haven't got the Rugby paper today.
The A teams going into the B&I cup is so the pro 12 teams are the only ones playing the cross border competitions and it gives them the chance to put in the proper layered structure of 1st team then A team then academy. I hope it leads to the whole feeder team thing going and a draft put in place like in the US so the worst team gets the first pick and each team have their A team play in either a pro 12 A league or B&I A league. That way the pro 12 teams are a separate level to the Premiership.

The point is nobody outside of the regions wants it, so why do the WRUin pander to the likes of the piemen instead of appeasing the general rugby public, surely the aim of any governing body should be to create more interest rather than alienating all but the chosen few.

 

[Bluemoon]

The point is nobody outside of the regions wants it, so why do the WRUin pander to the likes of the piemen instead of appeasing the general rugby public, surely the aim of any governing body should be to create more interest rather than alienating all but the chosen few.

The WRU aren't pandering to anyone. The regions proposed A teams, the WRU as a group voted yes. There would be no major implications to the clubs if they voted no. The small minority of people who don't want it seem to be from Ponty. Decision is made anyway, let's see if it works!

 

[valley commando]

The WRU aren't pandering to anyone. The regions proposed A teams, the WRU as a group voted yes. There would be no major implications to the clubs if they voted no. The small minority of people who don't want it seem to be from Ponty. Decision is made anyway, let's see if it works!

You are way off the mark, the vast majority don't want it, but most clubs won't upset their region by speaking out, fortunately Ponty have bigger balls than other clubs.
Aggregate gates for the regions are circa 32,000, I think you'll find that 32,000 rugby fans are a tiny minority of Welsh rugby fans.

 

[Jerry Blue]

Yeah but they are the ones turning up week in week out. The A teams are here now so i'll guess we'll see how they go and no matter what decisions the WRU makes people would complain about it because they can't keep everybody happy and have to do what they think is best for the game and in the end keep producing the talent for a successful team Wales because by hook or by crook Wales does produce lot of rugby talent! Not bad for a tiny nation that is always (rugby wise) in a permanent state of civil war and infighting!

 

[Bluemoon]

You are way off the mark, the vast majority don't want it, but most clubs won't upset their region by speaking out, fortunately Ponty have bigger balls than other clubs.
Aggregate gates for the regions are circa 32,000, I think you'll find that 32,000 rugby fans are a tiny minority of Welsh rugby fans.

Do you think it's the exact same 32,000 turning up week in week out? Plus that is just an average, there's no mention of the range in that average gate, there is also no mention of the relative strength of the opponent, the day of the kick off, the competition in which those games are averaged from etc.

I'm sure your clubs big balls is a big factor in it's fantastic public engagement and negotiation skills. Not to mention their ability to stand alone in speaking for all of the clubs in Wales, when the others obviously have no voice of their own.